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Post by taylorfirst1 on Aug 30, 2017 19:37:02 GMT
Dr. Morbius in "Forbidden Planet" (1956).
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Aug 30, 2017 19:39:01 GMT
Darth Vader?
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Aug 30, 2017 19:42:45 GMT
I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head but I believe some of James Cagney's portrayals of gangsters would fit this category.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 30, 2017 19:43:36 GMT
Ah, taylorfirst1 's avatar reminded me of one: Dr. Zaius! ...who has apparently gone into politics recently...
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Post by fangirl1975 on Aug 30, 2017 21:05:58 GMT
I don't view Hannibal Lecter as a villain. I mean who hasn't wanted to eat some twenty something punk who won't silence their cell phone in a movie theater or some other matter of rude person.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Aug 30, 2017 21:40:09 GMT
Boo Radley in To Kill a Mockingbird. Boo as villain ? "villains are just characters seeking to achieve their personal goals and meet their emotional/physical needs." ?
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spiderwort
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@spiderwort
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Post by spiderwort on Aug 30, 2017 22:12:20 GMT
The Duke intermixes hero and villain in The Searchers. Boo Radley in To Kill a Mockingbird. Hey, bravo, I agree completely about Wayne in The Searchers. Just saw that again, btw, and it's so clear, and very powerful. But I hesitate about Boo Radley. I wonder if he is a villain at all, or only one of the characters in a small town that stories grow up around to create a "villain." I grew up in a small town and we had a couple of old women who, story had it, lived in a haunted house. Of course, that wasn't true. But as kids we were still afraid to walk by their house, especially at night. The more I think about Boo, the more I think that he's actually a hero, at least in terms of the way we meet him in the story, and the way he saves the kids' lives, and the way Atticus introduces him to them with such respect and tenderness. Interesting idea to ponder. I don't remember the novel well enough to know if there is more that might contribute to the notion of his being a villain who finds redemption. Something to think about. I'd love your to know your thoughts.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 30, 2017 22:24:15 GMT
I don't view Hannibal Lecter as a villain. I mean who hasn't wanted to eat some twenty something punk who won't silence their cell phone in a movie theater or some other matter of rude person. Somewhat reminds me of Jimmy Stewart's Rupert Cadell in Rope: --which all raises an interesting question (no, not "should we have 'Strangulation Day'?") connected to spiderwort's topic: Is Rupert intended as a villain? As much a question for Patrick Hamilton's original play as for the film adaptation, of course, as after all Rupert is ultimately the disingenuous one who introduced Brandon and Phillip to these Nietzschean concepts but then backs away from them when they are actualized. Is he, in the long run, the true villain of the piece? And, if so, would he count for this topic? (He certainly didn't believe he was doing anything villainous, and we can even debate if he actually ever did.)
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Post by OldAussie on Aug 30, 2017 22:36:21 GMT
I've got a feeling westerns will feature prominently in this topic.
A couple I thought of have been nabbed - The Searchers - but I'll add Scar to Ethan Edwards as they are 2 sides of the same coin. 12 Angry Men - Juror number 3 seeks to "burn" a possibly innocent young man because of his own failings.
The Big Country - The Hannasseys are painted as villainous from the start but ultimately the civilized Henry Terrill is at least as responsible for the conflict.
Bridge on the River Kwai - Saito could have been a simple villain but in a film loaded with subtext he is so much more complex.
One-Eyed Jacks - When even the "hero" is deceitful, manipulative and amoral, how to we pick the main villain in a film packed with awful human beings? Dad Longworth is not a nice man but have Ben Johnson and Slim Pickens ever portrayed such slimy characters in their careers? And Longworth strikes me as the inspiration for Hackman's sheriff in Unforgiven, perhaps another entry in this list.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Aug 30, 2017 22:59:26 GMT
Is Rupert intended as a villain? As much a question for Patrick Hamilton's original play as for the film adaptation, of course, as after all Rupert is ultimately the disingenuous one who introduced Brandon and Phillip to these Nietzschean concepts but then backs away from them when they are actualized. Is he, in the long run, the true villain of the piece? And, if so, would he count for this topic? (He certainly didn't believe he was doing anything villainous, and we can even debate if he actually ever did.) However one feels about Hitchcock's experimental continuous-take execution of Rope, the question you pose represents what I've always felt is the film's (and presumably the play's) biggest flaw. Rupert's outraged protestations that Brandon and Phillip have twisted his words into something he never intended ring completely hollow and self-serving. Not at all shy about rejecting major elements of original text when adapting other works, it rather surprises me that Hitchcock, also very fond of themes of "transference of guilt" and moral ambiguity, didn't see to it that Rupert's dialogue was re-crafted to incorporate some acknowledgment of, at the very least, irresponsibility and regret if not culpability. That weakness is exacerbated by Stewart's earnest - and a bit overplayed - delivery of that dialogue. Make no mistake, I think he was a fine actor; there was no one better at conveying sincerity, but that very sincerity is inappropriate in this instance. What the part required with that dialogue intact was one who could have added a subtext of conscious self-deception; that is to say, someone able to convince viewers that, even as he spoke them, he no longer believed his own words. Perhaps a Claude Rains or James Mason.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Aug 30, 2017 23:09:48 GMT
Was Keefer a deliberate or an un-intentional villain in The Caine Mutiny ?
Serious question. Not really familiar with the motivational details. I mostly remembered Horrible and Meatball and that storm until I re-watched it a year or so ago.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Aug 31, 2017 0:45:18 GMT
spiderwort"perfect example". I LIKE the sound of that ! now we wait for the real experts on the Mutiny to chime in ! Strawberries anyone ?
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Post by Doghouse6 on Aug 31, 2017 1:04:42 GMT
Was Keefer a deliberate or an un-intentional villain in The Caine Mutiny ? Ah, now that's a question! Two, in fact: intentional on Keefer's part or on that of the screenwriters? In its abbreviated form of the story, neither the screenplay nor Keefer himself make any secret of his contempt for military order and chain-of-command. But recognizing that he's stuck with it for the duration and that anything disrupting it jeopardizes the crew and himself, he's more than willing to share his concerns about Queeg with Maryk. What he lacks is the courage of his convictions, so is also willing to let Maryk (and Willie) take the heat for what he instigated. In the end: weasel, yes; villain, no (IMO). To anyone who hasn't read the novel but plans to, SPOILERS as oblique as I can make them AHEAD. Herman Wouk took it a step further in his novel, in which Keefer, having succeeded Queeg in command of the Caine, comes face to face with both that lack of conviction and his own weakness in a position of responsibility - similar to that of Queeg - when the survival of the ship hangs in the balance during the Okinawa campaign. Because Keefer is able to face truths about himself that Queeg couldn't, his humiliation is orders of magnitude more abject, and in spite of his weasel-ness, a reader almost wants to weep for him.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Aug 31, 2017 1:14:20 GMT
Doghouse6Many thanks (especially for the oblique spoilers, my favorite kind.) I too leaned towards the weasel-feel of Keefer. Not inspired enough to be a real villain and a bit too lazy. Angry about being forbidden to work on his book so being snaky behind the captain's back and somewhat surprised to find that he had maybe gone too far.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Aug 31, 2017 2:25:47 GMT
What he lacks is the courage of his convictions, so is also willing to let Maryk (and Willie) take the heat for what he instigated. In the end: weasel, yes; villain, no (IMO). Thanks for the clarification, Doghouse. I obviously don't remember the film as well as you do, but I'm glad we at least reached the same conclusion. I don't know why I thought of him as a coward. I obviously need to see the film again. Oh, I wouldn't say "coward" as a description is out of line. When he backs out of the meeting with Adm. Halsey at the last minute, he pretty much admits it: "Behind this eloquent exterior, I've got a yellow streak 2 miles wide." But because he couches it in facetious terms, Willie doesn't buy it: "I don't get it. Tom's no coward." Maryk's a bit more suspicious: "I don't know what Tom is ... now."
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Post by manfromplanetx on Aug 31, 2017 22:33:41 GMT
Richard Widmark is outstanding as a sleazy anti-hero, he gives one of his best performances playing ... Skip McCoy in Pick Up On South Street (1953) . Brought up and conditioned by poverty and homelessness in NYC, Three time loser Skip McCoy has just been released from prison, a loner he is fiercely independent, a petty criminal he employs his street smart skills in order to survive. Back on the streets Skip boards a train, in a brilliantly crafted opening scene he lifts a purse from a female passengers handbag... An intense dramatic tale unfolds,with multi themes, central is a character study of those that live on the fringes, in the cities underbelly. Fuller's films portray a remarkable emotional range, Skips arrogant & loathsome character eventually confronts some home truths, and we are with him all the way ...
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Post by Rufus-T on Sept 1, 2017 2:13:51 GMT
Darth Vader is one of the most notorious villain on screen, yet after Return of the Jedi, the story had people feel kind of sorry for him. Return of the Jedi had me look forward to the Prequel and ultimately disappointed by those three movies not able to deliver the multidimensional humanity of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader that was hinted in the original trilogy.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Sept 1, 2017 5:01:04 GMT
OK ALL....
Are these guys "VILLAINS" in the "villain" sense in these movies ?
Roy Earle in HIGH SIERRA ? Duke Mantee in THE PETRIFIED FOREST ? Dobbs in THE TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE ? Butch and Sundance in ... BC and the SK ? Duke Mantee in THE PETRIFIED FOREST
even Cody Jarrett - WHITE HEAT ? Hud ? Bonnie, Clyde and gang ?
These seem to fit here somehow, maybe ?
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Post by twothousandonemark on Sept 1, 2017 6:32:41 GMT
Lord Beckett - Pirates of the Caribbean
When you mentioned Psycho, I think of the policeman also. She was a thief & Hitch seems to sway that act of the film as if she's being wrongly pursued by the cop. Well, she'd still be alive if he'd found her out. Had the cop been a friendly neighbourhood variety, might we'd have given up on being along with her?
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spiderwort
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Post by spiderwort on Sept 1, 2017 14:03:23 GMT
OK ALL.... Are these guys "VILLAINS" in the "villain" sense in these movies ? Roy Earle in HIGH SIERRA ? Duke Mantee in THE PETRIFIED FOREST ? Dobbs in THE TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE ? Butch and Sundance in ... BC and the SK ? Duke Mantee in THE PETRIFIED FOREST even Cody Jarrett - WHITE HEAT ? Hud ? Bonnie, Clyde and gang ? These seem to fit here somehow, maybe ? I say no they weren't, given my criteria, but I'll leave it for others to respond with their thoughts. Cody Jarrett needed a therapist, for sure, but his struggle with psychological dysfunction, it seems to me, was the source of his "villainy."
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