|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 1, 2017 20:54:12 GMT
There are many answers I could give here, but I'll keep it simple. I believe that the way the universe is set up really only makes sense if there was some divine source that set it up that way. We have the Earth positioned just the right distance away from the sun, just the right distance away from the moon, that gravity doesn't crush us or the temperature kill us. It's a very small chance that it would be just in the right position. Is it possible that it just happened to be that way? Yes, but I think it's quite a stretch, and supernatural power makes much more sense than just "coincidence," IMO. I also believe that God has given me signs, to help me figure out what to do, to warn me of certain things, to protect me, to let me know about things I've asked him. I'm not going to go too much into this, as this is very personal to me, and I like to stay quiet about those things, but some of these signs have been pretty amazing to me, and they are all the more reason for me to believe they were legit. Ok, well I don't know why you think it's "just right". The Earth could be almost as far out as Mars and still have life. It's not like it's that precise. Are you under the impression that things couldn't be any different? I mean we already know that life can survive in the deep pressure of the sea, and in conditions from the artic to edge of volcanoes, so I really don't see what you think is so perfect that it couldn't be any different. It's not at all like the Earth had to be intentionally placed here to be where it is. I honestly just think you don't have a good understanding of how planets form. You know they are debris from exploded stars right? You know what a habitable zone is around a star right and that all stars have a habitable zone? You know that we have found dozens of plants in these habitable zones right? There is nothing coincidental about that. Try thinking of life as a chemical byproduct if certain conditions are met, and you'll realize the word coincidence doesn't really apply.
And regarding signs to protect you. I mean, there are millions of starving children in the world who's parents pray for them, but you think god protects you. Because it's you? I mean do you kind of see how selfish that sounds?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 21:23:17 GMT
Great! :-)
How about I start, by simply asking, what convincing you that a god is something real.
There are many answers I could give here, but I'll keep it simple. I believe that the way the universe is set up really only makes sense if there was some divine source that set it up that way. We have the Earth positioned just the right distance away from the sun, just the right distance away from the moon, that gravity doesn't crush us or the temperature kill us. It's a very small chance that it would be just in the right position. Is it possible that it just happened to be that way? Yes, but I think it's quite a stretch, and supernatural power makes much more sense than just "coincidence," IMO. Again, though, it's not that Earth is a great fit for us. It's that we are a great fit for Earth, because this is where we evolved. Right now there could be a creature walking around in the methane clouds of Titan saying "You know, it's so amazing that we happen to be out here in the outer system, nice and far from the sun, and have this methane atmosphere and this really low gravity that is just perfect for us. Imagine if we lived in a temperature that was so high that water itself could actually be LIQUID! Or had a gravity five or six times our own, like some of those inner ones do! Or even an atmosphere filled with a high percentage of that terrible poison, Oxygen! Surely this proves that a divine force put Titan exactly here just for us."
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 1, 2017 21:26:28 GMT
Again, though, it's not that Earth is a great fit for us. It's that we are a great fit for Earth, because this is where we evolved. Right now there could be a creature walking around in the methane clouds of Titan saying "You know, it's so amazing that we happen to be out here in the outer system, nice and far from the sun, and have this methane atmosphere and this really low gravity that is just perfect for us. Imagine if we lived in a temperature that was so high that water itself could actually be LIQUID! Or had a gravity five or six times our own, like some of those inner ones do! Or even an atmosphere filled with a high percentage of that terrible poison, Oxygen! Surely this proves that a divine force put Titan exactly here just for us." Well said.
This whole, "what are the chances the Earth is in a perfect spot" idea, doesn't mean anything at all. Especially when you consider the vast differences in environments different organisms we live in on this planet alone. And yet somehow the idea is that only this planet can work?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 21:33:29 GMT
It's also worth noting that our universe is in fact immensely UNFIT for life of our own kind.
Drop a human being into the universe in a random location. There's a near 100% chance that he will be in deep space and will therefore immediately die.
Rule out deep space. Drop a human being into a random planet. Mostly they're solid rock or gas which will kill your person instantly.
Okay, so drop him onto the surface of a planet. For 99.99% of planets, same result - instant death if you end up on the surface of Mercury, Mars, Venus, etc.
Even put him somewhere randomly on the surface of Earth, and the chances are that he won't last long unless he has tools and specialised knowledge.
The percentage of the universe which is comfortably habitable for a human being is so close to zero that to look at the universe and say "this was made specially for us" is an absurdity.
In fact, it is nothing but the worst kind of egomania. It's like a bacterium clinging to your head and claiming that Human civilisation only exists so that it has clean hair to live on.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 1, 2017 22:02:12 GMT
It's also worth noting that our universe is in fact immensely UNFIT for life of our own kind. Drop a human being into the universe in a random location. There's a near 100% chance that he will be in deep space and will therefore immediately die. Rule out deep space. Drop a human being into a random planet. Mostly they're solid rock or gas which will kill your person instantly. Okay, so drop him onto the surface of a planet. For 99.99% of planets, same result - instant death if you end up on the surface of Mercury, Mars, Venus, etc. Even put him somewhere randomly on the surface of Earth, and the chances are that he won't last long unless he has tools and specialised knowledge. The percentage of the universe which is comfortably habitable for a human being is so close to zero that to look at the universe and say "this was made specially for us" is an absurdity. In fact, it is nothing but the worst kind of egomania. It's like a bacterium clinging to your head and claiming that Human civilisation only exists so that it has clean hair to live on. This is creating an argument that doesn't really exist.
The fact that the religious can appreciate the beauty of a universe and that the Earth is qualified to house much life unlike ANYTHING else found in the universe has no reason to get you bent out of shape or pretend that it is anything but a humbling gesture rather than the egotistical one you pretend it is.
Further, the earth could be mud, we could have no bones, and poop through our mouths, eating moldy Brussel Sprouts all day through our ear and it wouldn't change the notion of creation being more likely.
It is literally all we know about how life comes about even factoring in all the myriads thoughts on evolution and yet you would think theophobiacs have actually seen it happen otherwise outside of pretty pictures in their favorite biology books.
On the plus side I like how this argument dovetails into the notion of how unlikely life is throughout the universe.
|
|
|
|
Post by franktjmackey on Mar 1, 2017 22:19:28 GMT
You're avoiding them. You asked for evidence that "intelligence can exist before the universe". In this case, science would posit a hypothesis that intelligence can exist before the universe. In order to prove it, they must be able to recognize proof. Yes? In order to recognize proof, they must understand what they are looking for. Yes? You state that theists reject questioning yet you demand actual evidence that "intelligence can exist before the universe", without ever providing what that evidence must look like in order to prove to YOU the hypothesis. You asked for actual evidence that intelligence or an aspect that would resemble the definition of a god exists before the universe? What definition of a god are you using? You must have some parameter for this evidence. You've set the standard yet you can't explain it or detail it. No. First of all, it's not a hypothesis that intelligence can exist prior to the universe. That isn't even a coherent idea. Hypotheses are based on some level of limited evidence in the first place, and further tests are done to determine if there are consistent results, etc. If further evidence is gathered, it is included, but we do not know what that evidence will be in advance.
I really don't know why you think we know what evidence we are looking for before we find it.
I haven't set any standard. I've left it completely open.
It seems like instead of providing any sort of an explanation, you're just more interested in trying to turn the conversation completely backwards, which is curious.
Is there is any reason that I should continue to respond to you?
You brought up science and your need for actual evidence (empirical), and suggested that you need evidence that "intelligence can exist prior to the universe", So what hypothesis would you like to use? You demand proof but you don't know what proof would be in order to satisfy your request. You seemed confused by your own request. You've based your requirement of proof of God's existence on science correct?
|
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Mar 1, 2017 22:45:20 GMT
It's also worth noting that our universe is in fact immensely UNFIT for life of our own kind. Drop a human being into the universe in a random location. There's a near 100% chance that he will be in deep space and will therefore immediately die. Rule out deep space. Drop a human being into a random planet. Mostly they're solid rock or gas which will kill your person instantly. Okay, so drop him onto the surface of a planet. For 99.99% of planets, same result - instant death if you end up on the surface of Mercury, Mars, Venus, etc. Even put him somewhere randomly on the surface of Earth, and the chances are that he won't last long unless he has tools and specialised knowledge. The percentage of the universe which is comfortably habitable for a human being is so close to zero that to look at the universe and say "this was made specially for us" is an absurdity. In fact, it is nothing but the worst kind of egomania. It's like a bacterium clinging to your head and claiming that Human civilisation only exists so that it has clean hair to live on. Earth is qualified to house much life unlike ANYTHING else found in the universe Errr, come again? Earth is hardly unique in being habitable for life. We've even compiled a list of Potentially Habitable Planets That's only a list of planets we know about. The number of habitable planets in the universe is likely much greater than that list. Universe is a big place: approximately 92 billion light years in diameter. That list only includes planets within 2500 light years. You really think that in the remaining 91,999,997,500 light years there aren't more of them? Earth probably isn't all that special, really. What "it" are you referring to in this paragraph?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 22:47:00 GMT
This is creating an argument that doesn't really exist. No, it's dealing with an argument that DOES exist. Just because you may not use that argument, this doesn't mean that others don't.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 2, 2017 2:31:10 GMT
This is creating an argument that doesn't really exist. No, it's dealing with an argument that DOES exist. Just because you may not use that argument, this doesn't mean that others don't. No it doesn't. You are making up appreciation for the universe as thinking that Christians think they are the center of the universe which is a ludicrous accusation.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 2, 2017 2:41:20 GMT
Earth is qualified to house much life unlike ANYTHING else found in the universe Errr, come again? Earth is hardly unique in being habitable for life. We've even compiled a list of Potentially Habitable Planets That's only a list of planets we know about. The number of habitable planets in the universe is likely much greater than that list. Universe is a big place: approximately 92 billion light years in diameter. That list only includes planets within 2500 light years. You really think that in the remaining 91,999,997,500 light years there aren't more of them? Earth probably isn't all that special, really. What "it" are you referring to in this paragraph? You need to read my statement again. Nothing has been found. That's all I'm saying. If there is life on other planets, then so be it. However, let's not pretend that any of those planets come even close to being like Earth just because they fit a broad parameter. The reality is that even if there is a New York City on Gliese, we will never know. In short, there is nothing wrong with being happy for being on such a great planet.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Mar 2, 2017 3:37:36 GMT
Errr, come again? Earth is hardly unique in being habitable for life. We've even compiled a list of Potentially Habitable Planets That's only a list of planets we know about. The number of habitable planets in the universe is likely much greater than that list. Universe is a big place: approximately 92 billion light years in diameter. That list only includes planets within 2500 light years. You really think that in the remaining 91,999,997,500 light years there aren't more of them? Earth probably isn't all that special, really. What "it" are you referring to in this paragraph? You need to read my statement again. Nothing has been found. That's all I'm saying. If there is life on other planets, then so be it. However, let's not pretend that any of those planets come even close to being like Earth just because they fit a broad parameter. The reality is that even if there is a New York City on Gliese, we will never know. In short, there is nothing wrong with being happy for being on such a great planet. That no other life has been found is true: that Earth is uniquely qualified to house life is not true. Certainly, no other planet will be identical to Earth, just as no other planet will be identical to any other planet. Each will be unique in some aspects (or in their unique combination). The point is that, in relation to habitability for life, Earth isn't unique or special. Being happy with and even admiring Earth is fine, but let's not make it out to be something it's not.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 2, 2017 4:01:55 GMT
You brought up science and your need for actual evidence (empirical), and suggested that you need evidence that "intelligence can exist prior to the universe", So what hypothesis would you like to use? You demand proof but you don't know what proof would be in order to satisfy your request. You seemed confused by your own request. You've based your requirement of proof of God's existence on science correct? You seem confused by the requirement.
You should already know what the evidence is, since evidence is the only thing that can lead you to know something exists.
So you tell me.
I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point. You must know you aren't making any sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by juicebox07 on Mar 2, 2017 5:38:46 GMT
I mean, there are millions of starving children in the world who's parents pray for them, but you think god protects you. Because it's you? I mean do you kind of see how selfish that sounds? This is something I see pretty regularly among theists, and it's annoying to say the least. "I know God is real because I've been blessed with so much! I prayed I would get that job and I did! God made it happen because he's looking out for me." Oh ok. So what about all of the other people out there looking to get a job? God isn't looking out for them? And you've been blessed with so much, that's great. What about all the people who barely have anything? If your God is so great, why doesn't he help them too? If you work so hard to put yourself through college and then go on to start a career, why do you give all the credit to someone else? YOU put in the work and should take responsibility for your own successes. The same goes with failures. "I got fired from my job today, but I know it was God's plan. He has something better in store for me." Or maybe you got fired because you just weren't doing your job correctly?
|
|
|
|
Post by franktjmackey on Mar 2, 2017 6:08:20 GMT
You brought up science and your need for actual evidence (empirical), and suggested that you need evidence that "intelligence can exist prior to the universe", So what hypothesis would you like to use? You demand proof but you don't know what proof would be in order to satisfy your request. You seemed confused by your own request. You've based your requirement of proof of God's existence on science correct? You seem confused by the requirement.
You should already know what the evidence is, since evidence is the only thing that can lead you to know something exists.
So you tell me.
I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point. You must know you aren't making any sense.
You're kidding right? Give me the evidence! But I don't know what the evidence is, yet I am the sole arbiter of what evidence will suffice. It's like a court asking for proof of murder but there is no standard by which to prove it. Despite all the of evidence (anecdotal) for the existence of God, which is the most written about subject in humankind, not to mention the personal spiritual experiences of billions of people past and present and near death experiences, you demand empirical evidence that you yourself say you have no idea what it would be! You seem to rely on science but you don't understand what science is supposed to do for you. You create a standard like "show me that intelligence existed before the creation of the universe" but you have no idea what that would look like. It's a silly device that you use to create a standard which you don't even understand, let alone, would understand or accept. Forgetting the fact that you are doing a bait and switch here. You surely agree that science's (people) ability to understand is always changing right? And that what science couldn't prove before, like say the nature of pneumonia and how to cure it, ultimately was able to prove it later correct? Gravity, the solar system, shape of the Earth... these were all phenomenon that science could not explain but ultimately did. Not to mention where science has gotten it wrong like in the case of stomach ulcers....the point being is that science is fallible. If you are being sincere, your point, whether you realize it, is that you don't believe in God because science hasn't proven it to your satisfaction yet..... You're not an atheist, I'm not even sure you're an agnostic because by relying on science (it's evolution and fallibility) you are accepting that there is a possibility/probability, however small, that God does exist. In essence, you don't believe in God yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 2, 2017 6:39:35 GMT
You're kidding right? Give me the evidence! But I don't know what the evidence is, yet I am the sole arbiter of what evidence will suffice. It's like a court asking for proof of murder but there is no standard by which to prove it. Despite all the of evidence (anecdotal) for the existence of God, which is the most written about subject in humankind, not to mention the personal spiritual experiences of billions of people past and present and near death experiences, you demand empirical evidence that you yourself say you have no idea what it would be! You seem to rely on science but you don't understand what science is supposed to do for you. You create a standard like "show me that intelligence existed before the creation of the universe" but you have no idea what that would look like. It's a silly device that you use to create a standard which you don't even understand, let alone, would understand or accept. Forgetting the fact that you are doing a bait and switch here. You surely agree that science's (people) ability to understand is always changing right? And that what science couldn't prove before, like say the nature of pneumonia and how to cure it, ultimately was able to prove it later correct? Gravity, the solar system, shape of the Earth... these were all phenomenon that science could not explain but ultimately did. Not to mention where science has gotten it wrong like in the case of stomach ulcers....the point being is that science is fallible. If you are being sincere, your point, whether you realize it, is that you don't believe in God because science hasn't proven it to your satisfaction yet..... You're not an atheist, I'm not even sure you're an agnostic because by relying on science (it's evolution and fallibility) you are accepting that there is a possibility/probability, however small, that God does exist. In essence, you don't believe in God yet. As stated numerous times to you already, I'm not obligated to know what the evidence is, before it is discovered/presented. If you claim a god is true, then surely evidence is what led you to that conclusion, and you already know what that evidence is.
We're done, because all you've offered is nonsense.
|
|
|
|
Post by franktjmackey on Mar 2, 2017 6:45:51 GMT
You're kidding right? Give me the evidence! But I don't know what the evidence is, yet I am the sole arbiter of what evidence will suffice. It's like a court asking for proof of murder but there is no standard by which to prove it. Despite all the of evidence (anecdotal) for the existence of God, which is the most written about subject in humankind, not to mention the personal spiritual experiences of billions of people past and present and near death experiences, you demand empirical evidence that you yourself say you have no idea what it would be! You seem to rely on science but you don't understand what science is supposed to do for you. You create a standard like "show me that intelligence existed before the creation of the universe" but you have no idea what that would look like. It's a silly device that you use to create a standard which you don't even understand, let alone, would understand or accept. Forgetting the fact that you are doing a bait and switch here. You surely agree that science's (people) ability to understand is always changing right? And that what science couldn't prove before, like say the nature of pneumonia and how to cure it, ultimately was able to prove it later correct? Gravity, the solar system, shape of the Earth... these were all phenomenon that science could not explain but ultimately did. Not to mention where science has gotten it wrong like in the case of stomach ulcers....the point being is that science is fallible. If you are being sincere, your point, whether you realize it, is that you don't believe in God because science hasn't proven it to your satisfaction yet..... You're not an atheist, I'm not even sure you're an agnostic because by relying on science (it's evolution and fallibility) you are accepting that there is a possibility/probability, however small, that God does exist. In essence, you don't believe in God yet. As stated numerous times to you already, I'm not obligated to know what the evidence is, before it is discovered/presented. If you claim a god is true, then surely evidence is what led you to that conclusion, and you already know what that evidence is.
We're done, because all you've offered is nonsense.
You either didn't read my last post or you're ignoring it. Either way, you're in over your head.
|
|
|
|
Post by filmfan95 on Mar 2, 2017 6:46:38 GMT
I mean, there are millions of starving children in the world who's parents pray for them, but you think god protects you. Because it's you? I mean do you kind of see how selfish that sounds? This is something I see pretty regularly among theists, and it's annoying to say the least. "I know God is real because I've been blessed with so much! I prayed I would get that job and I did! God made it happen because he's looking out for me." Oh ok. So what about all of the other people out there looking to get a job? God isn't looking out for them? And you've been blessed with so much, that's great. What about all the people who barely have anything? If your God is so great, why doesn't he help them too? If you work so hard to put yourself through college and then go on to start a career, why do you give all the credit to someone else? YOU put in the work and should take responsibility for your own successes. The same goes with failures. "I got fired from my job today, but I know it was God's plan. He has something better in store for me." Or maybe you got fired because you just weren't doing your job correctly? I guess I didn't word it right. I didn't mean that has given me a lot of things that I wanted. I simply meant that I asked God about certain things that I was unsure about. Once I told him I was worried about something, and that I needed a (very major, noticeable, not-so-subtle, possibly odd) sign, and that's exactly what I got, nearly thirty seconds later (and I didnt even realize that it even WAS the sign until a few hours later, when the strange thing that happened was mentioned on the news).
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 2, 2017 6:56:50 GMT
you're in over your head. Translation, you're begging not to be taken seriously.
Thanks, I won't
|
|
|
|
Post by franktjmackey on Mar 2, 2017 6:57:48 GMT
you're in over your head. Translation, you're begging not to be taken seriously.
Thanks, I won't
That makes no sense and yes, you are in over your head.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 2, 2017 7:00:32 GMT
That makes no sense and yes, you are in over your head. It's just amazing that in all this time, it all boils down to you trying to be insulting. I mean it's just hilarious that this is the best you've got other than pretending to be a confused fuck. But anyway, we know you're a troll. Cheers.
|
|