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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 18:32:40 GMT
You ignored the part of my post where I said that spirituality is experiential. Demanding empirical proof of intelligence existing before the universe, for example, is a silly conceit. The inability of science to comprehend something does not preclude its existence. If you don't want to use the scientific method to establish the existence of something, then what method would you use instead? And how does this method, whatever it is, distinguish between true statements and false statements? Magic is a phenomenon whose very existence is yet to be established. That seems like a necessary first step before we start trying to explain it.
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Post by awhina on Mar 6, 2017 0:15:46 GMT
As for your criticism of personal experience that we offer, what else do you realistically expect? You're all such egotists that you expect God to rearrange the stars to spell our Your name! (that one was yours, wasn't it?) Again, personal experiences are evidence of experiences and not evidence for what caused them. The Bible offers plenty of empirical claims that should be scientifically testable: believers not buying from serpent bites, efficacy of prayer, Elijah and the Priests of Baal, etc. I never said God should re-arrange the stars "to spell my name" (again, this is evidence of your bad memory): I said rearrange them to spell "I Am here -- God" in a way that everyone could understand it. If He's God, then he's omnipotent, and could do this without destroying anything. Your ego is downright terrifying! God should do the impossible - re-arranging stellar cartography for the sake of You? Un-be-fracking-lievable. What makes J____ so important?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 0:19:19 GMT
They don't. You won't hear their answers till they give up trying, then you accuse them of being close-minded when you're the close-minded one. (Trust me folks, I have this one on personal experience.)
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Mar 6, 2017 20:18:16 GMT
Again, personal experiences are evidence of experiences and not evidence for what caused them. The Bible offers plenty of empirical claims that should be scientifically testable: believers not buying from serpent bites, efficacy of prayer, Elijah and the Priests of Baal, etc. I never said God should re-arrange the stars "to spell my name" (again, this is evidence of your bad memory): I said rearrange them to spell "I Am here -- God" in a way that everyone could understand it. If He's God, then he's omnipotent, and could do this without destroying anything. God should do the impossible - re-arranging stellar cartography for the sake of You? 1. If he's God, it's not impossible. 2. Why the fuck do think it would be just for me? The entire point is to produce unambiguous evidence for EVERYONE!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 21:27:20 GMT
I believe in God, and I don't mind questions. Honest, we're not all close-minded bigots who think that everyone who does NOT believe in God is somehow wrong or evil or dastardly or up to something.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 6, 2017 21:53:02 GMT
There's been plenty of moral people that have been spanked as kids. Sure there are. So what? The point I made was that offering "you will be spanked" as a reason not to behave a certain way does not instil morality. Do you disagree with this? If so, why? Because christianity is ultimately authoritarian. God says "thou shalt not", but does not say why thou shalt not other than to say "because I'll send you to heaven if you don't and hell if you do". You only have to look at the garden of eden story, the moral of which is "stay ignorant and do as you're told". The god of the bible acts in an authoritarian manner - and yet the book contains no moral basis for god's alleged authority whatsoever. As I said, I don't know why you wouldn't think the B option is norm in Christianity unless you don't know Christianity.
That said, I'm also saying a spanking to punish bad behavior is not an uncommon thing from & to moral people in the good old days. Unless we could separate the cause and effect, then it is entirely possible spankings help associate wrongdoing with morality. It's not like they're permanent or anything.
The Garden of Eden example is the type of false analogy my sentence addresses. You continue to pretend that morality boils down to punishment or reward as if there are no reasons, rewards, or responsibilities in between which is silly unless you haven't read Scripture and then it's just ignorance. Adam and Eve knew their purpose, had or would have dominion over the entire planet, and you pretend that avoiding something that was dangerous to them was keeping them ignorant. Why?
That's a blatantly false accusation backed up by the first sentence I quoted.
All I'm saying is that one should not assume that all Christians think that way just because you have proof that some are that way. We are not the BORG.
Like so many others, you spend far more time thinking (Incorrectly) about what kind a person you think a Christian is rather than being interested in their teachings. You are a smarter version of the OP so far.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 22:11:27 GMT
Back the truck up a bit. I want to address the spanking issue and provide another avenue for consideration. I think it is not a spanking, per se, that is dangerous. But yes, absolutely, they can do permanent harm. You are reducing this to a simple physical action. However, just like with words, it's often not what is said or done, but HOW.
One must define "spanking" as to one person it's a swat on the behind over clothes, and to another it involves taking the pants down and slapping with an object. So that is worthy of thought.
Also, if spankings are delivered without the child knowing or understanding WHY they are being spanked,...if there is no comprehension of associating a certain behaviour with a particular punishment which is ALSO reinforced when the child does NOT do the offensive thing,...then the child just learns abject fear of punishment without knowing why or when they will be punished or for what.
There must be a distinction made.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 6, 2017 22:35:14 GMT
Back the truck up a bit. I want to address the spanking issue and provide another avenue for consideration. I think it is not a spanking, per se, that is dangerous. But yes, absolutely, they can do permanent harm. You are reducing this to a simple physical action. However, just like with words, it's often not what is said or done, but HOW. One must define "spanking" as to one person it's a swat on the behind over clothes, and to another it involves taking the pants down and slapping with an object. So that is worthy of thought. There must be a distinction made. My statement wasn't meant to be a catch all for psychological damage of spanked people, so I'll explain my view in a little more detail.
It's an analogy as well as reality, so I'll explain it a little in both ways since that's the context.
Most people in the 20th century who got spankings, such as myself and other fine upstanding citizens (Not beatings, not molesting, not child abuse) turned out fine.
Now, spankings are not acceptable in society. So the fact that the stigma exists at all means it can cause harm because it is no longer the norm.
It has never been something that was considered mandatory is society or Scripture, so it was irrelevant.
Also, in Scripture morality was not based on the spanking or punishment. Much of the Bible has little to do with punishment of God's followers and even less so for the wicked since that is how irrelevant they are. They only matter in relation to the righteous and what they do to them. So while morality permeates the Bible, the focus is on the free will of individuals and the repercussions, good or bad or indifferent, free will has.
IMO, this would be abuse, but using it as an analogy, this doesn't really relate to what graham was discussing since Adam & Eve knew exactly what they did and the repercussions of it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 22:43:21 GMT
Sure ask all the questions you want, can you answer one question? can you prove there is no God? no? THEN WHY are you an atheist???
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 22:47:35 GMT
And there is no attack on atheists, there's only an attack on the devil AND anyone who would try to turn anyone away from God. If that's your intention, then yes the war is with you too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 22:55:47 GMT
Good Lord,... some people need to loosen their belts. If other people do not want to believe in a Christian God, that's fine and dandy. What's with these personal missions to convert everyone on the board to Christianity and then attacking them if they have different beliefs than you do? As I've stated, I believe in God. I'm Roman Catholic. But my personal beliefs have no bearing on what anyone else chooses to believe. I don't get extra Catholic Points if I can change people's religions...
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Post by Jonesy1 on Mar 6, 2017 22:58:41 GMT
I don't get extra Catholic Points if I can change people's religions... Not even a set of steak knives? That seems a bit unfair.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 23:34:32 GMT
I don't get extra Catholic Points if I can change people's religions... Not even a set of steak knives? That seems a bit unfair. Only if I can convert you in the next 5 minutes,....then I get double the points,....for free! I just have to pay extra processing and handling.
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Post by Jonesy1 on Mar 6, 2017 23:39:44 GMT
Not even a set of steak knives? That seems a bit unfair. Only if I can convert you in the next 5 minutes,....then I get double the points,....for free! I just have to pay extra processing and handling. That's ok then. Btw, Hail Mary.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 23:47:53 GMT
Here's the GOOD NEWS tho, nobody gives one shit what anyone else thinks, so we are all just blabbing to the wind, now aren't we?
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Post by awhina on Mar 7, 2017 1:16:00 GMT
God should do the impossible - re-arranging stellar cartography for the sake of You? 1. If he's God, it's not impossible. 2. Why the **** do think it would be just for me? The entire point is to produce unambiguous evidence for EVERYONE! It would the next best thing to impossible. Why should God risk millions of stellar systems and trillions of lives for a few hundred comparatively wealthy males with too much time on their hands on one small planet, when billions of people on that same planet manage fine without said "unambiguous proof"?
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Mar 7, 2017 2:15:44 GMT
1. If he's God, it's not impossible. 2. Why the **** do think it would be just for me? The entire point is to produce unambiguous evidence for EVERYONE! It would the next best thing to impossible. Why should God risk millions of stellar systems and trillions of lives for a few hundred comparatively wealthy males with too much time on their hands on one small planet, when billions of people on that same planet manage fine without said "unambiguous proof"? Why would it be impossible if he's God? The guy that created the universe can't manage to re-arrange it temporally without destroying it? So much for omnipotence. You really think "wealthy males" make up the entire category of "non-Christians" or even "atheists" and "agnostics?" Besides, that's only one example I offered. Everyone having the exact same dream of meeting/talking to God on the same night and waking up and reporting the same experience would work just as well.
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Post by awhina on Mar 7, 2017 3:55:50 GMT
It would the next best thing to impossible. Why should God risk millions of stellar systems and trillions of lives for a few hundred comparatively wealthy males with too much time on their hands on one small planet, when billions of people on that same planet manage fine without said "unambiguous proof"? Besides, that's only one example I offered. Everyone having the exact same dream of meeting/talking to God on the same night and waking up and reporting the same experience would work just as well. Impractical then, but the main thing is that you don't seem to realise the sheer egotism and self-importance of your ridiculous demand! Non-wealthy first world males may be atheist, but they are not the ones who spend their time 24/7 on message boards harassing theists. Working class people have better things to do, such as working or looking after their families if they have them. As for your dream idea, don't be ridiculous! You'd all have great fun with that, claiming that anyone who reported such a dream was mentally ill, or as Stanton would say a "fundy huckster".
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 7, 2017 15:31:10 GMT
Sure ask all the questions you want, can you answer one question? can you prove there is no God? no? THEN WHY are you an atheist???
Because one can lack belief in God without necessarily having to prove a negative. What's your excuse?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 15:50:19 GMT
Sure ask all the questions you want, can you answer one question? can you prove there is no God? no? THEN WHY are you an atheist???
Because one can lack belief in God without necessarily having to prove a negative. What's your excuse?
You will probably never GET IT, maybe one day when you die you will understand, there's nothing I can do to help you and frankly, I don't want to. I'm a Christian, that doesn't mean I have to give a shit about you tho. So as you can see, what you think doesn't mean shit.
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