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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:10:45 GMT
As an MCU fan, I will say this: getting an Avengers movie before we got the JL movie is just wrong. That's like having The Rolling Stones form and become a smash hit before The Beatles. And in a perfect world, the Justice League would have already been a done deal and out on DVD before the MCU even had Ironman out in theaters.
Interestingly enough, to continue the Band = Comic Book Company metaphor, if DC Comics is The Beatles and Marvel Comics is The Rolling Stones, that's not how their current cinematic scope has turned out.
DC has always been about mythological archetypes ideals. "Here's an idealized version of the world if it had superheroes."
Whereas Marvel's always been edier "Here's the world is superheroes and this is what you get. It ain't always pretty."
So while Marvel Comics has always had that edgier Rolling Stones vibe, the MCU has actually flipped that on its head and emerged as more of The Monkees of the equation. Similar enough to The Beatles, but with their own tongue in cheek humor added into the blend that actually seems to ribbing on the industry that spawned it.
Whereas The Beatles/DC is having a bit of trouble finding its voice, because their distributor, Warner Bros, wanted them to be KISS, and their former manager, Zack Snyder, wanted them to be Ozzie Osbourne. But most of the audiences didn't want The Beatles to be either of those things, and now Warner Bros is desperately trying to make them into The Beatles again.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 6, 2017 19:44:05 GMT
Hell, we got a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, a Doctor Strange movie, and even a freakin Ant-Man movie before a Wonder Woman movie and a Flash movie. Problem is WB were not willing to take risks of bringing DC characters to the big screen that weren't Batman or Superman. Do you think Fox would take a risk on the Marvel characters I just mentioned? Fuck no, they're busy fucking up the X-Men and Fantastic Four.
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Post by scabab on Sept 6, 2017 19:51:53 GMT
Didn't DC already try to get this Cinematic Universe thing rolling with Green Lantern in 2011? It was a complete and utter failure.
I don't blame them for being hesitant. Really besides the Batman movies anything else DC came out with was crap.
Jonah Hex was awful, Catwoman was awful, Green Lantern was awful and Superman Returns was just plain boring more than anything.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:56:32 GMT
Hell, we got a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, a Doctor Strange movie, and even a freakin Ant-Man movie before a Wonder Woman movie and a Flash movie. Problem is WB were not willing to take risks of bringing DC characters to the big screen that weren't Batman or Superman. Do you think Fox would take a risk on the Marvel characters I just mentioned? Fuck no, they're busy fucking up the X-Men and Fantastic Four. So that makes 20th Century Fox The Tornados and The Surfaris of the equation. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:57:07 GMT
Didn't DC already try to get this Cinematic Universe thing rolling with Green Lantern in 2011? It was a complete and utter failure. I don't blame them for being hesitant. Really besides the Batman movies anything else DC came out with was crap. Jonah Hex was awful, Catwoman was awful, Green Lantern was awful and Superman Returns was just plain boring more than anything. Yep. Quite correct. And their second stab at it with the DCEU is getting mixed results. |
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 6, 2017 20:03:55 GMT
Hell, we got a Guardians of the Galaxy movie, a Doctor Strange movie, and even a freakin Ant-Man movie before a Wonder Woman movie and a Flash movie. Problem is WB were not willing to take risks of bringing DC characters to the big screen that weren't Batman or Superman. Do you think Fox would take a risk on the Marvel characters I just mentioned? Fuck no, they're busy fucking up the X-Men and Fantastic Four. So that makes 20th Century Fox The Tornados and The Surfaris of the equation. Shit, Fox is the real enemy of the Marvel universe. Oh, and Avi Arad too. |
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Post by scabab on Sept 6, 2017 20:06:38 GMT
Didn't DC already try to get this Cinematic Universe thing rolling with Green Lantern in 2011? It was a complete and utter failure. I don't blame them for being hesitant. Really besides the Batman movies anything else DC came out with was crap. Jonah Hex was awful, Catwoman was awful, Green Lantern was awful and Superman Returns was just plain boring more than anything. Yep. Quite correct. And their second stab at it with the DCEU is getting mixed results. They jumped into it too quickly. Marvel had things planned out very well, years in advance thanks to that Kevin Fiege. DC didn't. Man of Steel was just a Superman movie at the time, it was only after it came out and it did reasonably well unlike Green Lantern did they then start saying that was the first one in the series. If it had flopped it likely wouldn't have been. Then it just seemed like a rush to get Justice League out when there's been no Flash, Aquaman or Cyborg movie yet. We have no the villain is because his cameo was cut from Batman vs Superman. They killed Superman way too soon and now he's not been in the marketing for this movie which just seems wrong. They haven't announced movie yet that should have been announced. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 20:10:58 GMT
So that makes 20th Century Fox The Tornados and The Surfaris of the equation. Shit, Fox is the real enemy of the Marvel universe. Oh, and Avi Arad too. Yep. Took us all a little too long to realize that, though. In hindsight, its kind of obvious given how everything that wasn't the first two X-Men and Spider-Man films (or Batman Begins) turned out. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 20:26:35 GMT
Yep. Quite correct. And their second stab at it with the DCEU is getting mixed results. They jumped into it too quickly. Marvel had things planned out very well, years in advance thanks to that Kevin Fiege. DC didn't. Man of Steel was just a Superman movie at the time, it was only after it came out and it did reasonably well unlike Green Lantern did they then start saying that was the first one in the series. If it had flopped it likely wouldn't have been. Then it just seemed like a rush to get Justice League out when there's been no Flash, Aquaman or Cyborg movie yet. We have no the villain is because his cameo was cut from Batman vs Superman. They killed Superman way too soon and now he's not been in the marketing for this movie which just seems wrong. They haven't announced movie yet that should have been announced. Yes, basically. Funny thing, its been four years since Man of Steel, the same time difference between Ironman 1 and Avengers 1 with almost the same number of movies, but... MCU Phase 1: 1. Ironman (2008) 2. Incredible Hulk (2008) 3. Ironman 2 (2010) 4. Thor (2011) 5. Captain America (2011) 6. The Avengers (2012) The MCU had four movies dedicated to introducing and developing four of the six core Avengers members, because planning, and introduced only Black Widow and Hawkeye on the side in that time. DCEU Phase 1: 1. Man of Steel (2013) 2. Batman v Superman (2016) 3. Suicide Squad (2016) 4. Wonder Woman (2017) 5. Justice League (2017) The DCEU has only two films dedicated to introducing and developing an individual member of the core League members: Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. Everyone has had to share, including Batman, and he's the only member not to have a film of his own in the series so far who has gotten much attention. So we've only really met Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. And the other film between MoS and JL was a useless side project, Suicide Squad. The other DCEU film of 2016 should have either been Aquaman or The Flash. Had they planned this, we could have a much more comprehensive DCEU Phase 1 like we had for MCU Phase 1. The lineup could look something more like this: DCEU Phase 1: 1. Man of Steel (2013) 2. Wonder Woman (2014) 3. The Flash (2015) 4. Batman v Superman (2016) (And thus only Batman needs to be reintroduced) 6. Aquaman (2016) 7. Wonder Woman 2 (2017) 8. Justice League (2017) (only introducing Cyborg as the new guy) |
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Post by scabab on Sept 6, 2017 20:54:32 GMT
They jumped into it too quickly. Marvel had things planned out very well, years in advance thanks to that Kevin Fiege. DC didn't. Man of Steel was just a Superman movie at the time, it was only after it came out and it did reasonably well unlike Green Lantern did they then start saying that was the first one in the series. If it had flopped it likely wouldn't have been. Then it just seemed like a rush to get Justice League out when there's been no Flash, Aquaman or Cyborg movie yet. We have no the villain is because his cameo was cut from Batman vs Superman. They killed Superman way too soon and now he's not been in the marketing for this movie which just seems wrong. They haven't announced movie yet that should have been announced. Yes, basically. Funny thing, its been four years since Man of Steel, the same time difference between Ironman 1 and Avengers 1 with almost the same number of movies, but... MCU Phase 1: 1. Ironman (2008) 2. Incredible Hulk (2008) 3. Ironman 2 (2010) 4. Thor (2011) 5. Captain America (2011) 6. The Avengers (2012) The MCU had four movies dedicated to introducing and developing four of the six core Avengers films, because planning, and introduced only Black Widow and Hawkeye on the side in that time. DCEU Phase 1: 1. Man of Steel (2013) 2. Batman v Superman (2016) 3. Suicide Squad (2016) 4. Wonder Woman (2017) 5. Justice League (2017) The DCEU has only dedicated two films deciated to introducing and developing an individual member of the core League members: Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. Everyone has had to share, including Batman, and he's the only one the others not to have a film of his own in the series so far to get much attention. So we've only really met Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. And the other film between MoS and JL was a useless side project, Suicide Squad. The other DCEU film of 2016 should have either been Aquaman or The Flash. Had they planned this, we could have a much more comprehensive DCEU Phase 1 like we had for MCU Phase 1. The lineup could look something more like this: DCEU Phase 1: 1. Man of Steel (2013) 2. Wonder Woman (2014) 3. The Flash (2015) 4. Batman v Superman (2016) (And thus only Batman needs to be reintroduced) 6. Aquaman (2016) 7. Wonder Woman 2 (2017) 8. Justice League (2017) (only introducing Cyborg as the new guy) Yeah pretty much that's probably what they should have done. Instead they seem to be going the other route that Marvel did with Civil War. That movie introduced Black Panther and Spider-man into a huge movie which will benefit their solo movies afterwards (it's worked for Spider-man). At least this way Justice League will be a big movie and people will become more familiar with Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg and so those movies will do better than the otherwise would have but it does mean Justice League won't make as much as it could have. Batman vs Superman had too much going on. They definitely shouldn't have killed Superman, they shouldn't have had Doomsday or even Wonder Woman. They shouldn't have had the Darkseid tease either. I think they could have done a Flash movie first as well and because Barry is pretty young they could have had him become friends with Ray Fisher who would have had his incident happen in that movie near the end and where he would have become Cyborg in Justice League itself. Avengers was clever in just having Loki be the villain. It already had so much going on bringing the heroes together for the first time that it just made the villain someone we already knew so he didn't need any explaining. Justice League has to now introduce all these heroes, bring them all together and then somehow come up with an interesting villain. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:03:26 GMT
Yes, basically. Funny thing, its been four years since Man of Steel, the same time difference between Ironman 1 and Avengers 1 with almost the same number of movies, but... MCU Phase 1: 1. Ironman (2008) 2. Incredible Hulk (2008) 3. Ironman 2 (2010) 4. Thor (2011) 5. Captain America (2011) 6. The Avengers (2012) The MCU had four movies dedicated to introducing and developing four of the six core Avengers films, because planning, and introduced only Black Widow and Hawkeye on the side in that time. DCEU Phase 1: 1. Man of Steel (2013) 2. Batman v Superman (2016) 3. Suicide Squad (2016) 4. Wonder Woman (2017) 5. Justice League (2017) The DCEU has only dedicated two films deciated to introducing and developing an individual member of the core League members: Man of Steel and Wonder Woman. Everyone has had to share, including Batman, and he's the only one the others not to have a film of his own in the series so far to get much attention. So we've only really met Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. And the other film between MoS and JL was a useless side project, Suicide Squad. The other DCEU film of 2016 should have either been Aquaman or The Flash. Had they planned this, we could have a much more comprehensive DCEU Phase 1 like we had for MCU Phase 1. The lineup could look something more like this: DCEU Phase 1: 1. Man of Steel (2013) 2. Wonder Woman (2014) 3. The Flash (2015) 4. Batman v Superman (2016) (And thus only Batman needs to be reintroduced) 6. Aquaman (2016) 7. Wonder Woman 2 (2017) 8. Justice League (2017) (only introducing Cyborg as the new guy) Yeah pretty much that's probably what they should have done. Instead they seem to be going the other route that Marvel did with Civil War. That movie introduced Black Panther and Spider-man into a huge movie which will benefit their solo movies afterwards (it's worked for Spider-man). At least this way Justice League will be a big movie and people will become more familiar with Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg and so those movies will do better than the otherwise would have but it does mean Justice League won't make as much as it could have. Batman vs Superman had too much going on. They definitely shouldn't have killed Superman, they shouldn't have had Doomsday or even Wonder Woman. They shouldn't have had the Darkseid tease either. I think they could have done a Flash movie first as well and because Barry is pretty young they could have had him become friends with Ray Fisher who would have had his incident happen in that movie near the end and where he would have become Cyborg in Justice League itself. Avengers was clever in just having Loki be the villain. It already had so much going on bringing the heroes together for the first time that it just made the villain someone we already knew so he didn't need any explaining. Justice League has to now introduce all these heroes, bring them all together and then somehow come up with an interesting villain. Don't forget they also have to dedicate time to resurrecting Superman. I don't know why they thought this would work. Plus, the film's been completely overhailed how man times now? Before the backlash against BvS, it was going to be a grimdarkfest as well, but it got rewritten to "Marvel it up" as I believe they phrased it. So massive reworks on a film they were already in the middle making. Now they've had massive reshoots with two very VERY different directors as well. Say what you will about Thor: Ragnarok, it looks like its a unified vision, for better or for worse. |
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Sept 6, 2017 21:03:26 GMT
It is pretty surprising that with the early successes of Superman the Movie (1978) and Batman (1989) no one thought to combine forces sooner.
One would think there would have been a Superfriends (1999) already.
Somebody dropped the ball.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:06:51 GMT
It is pretty surprising that with the early successes of Superman the Movie (1978) and Batman (1989) no one thought to combine forces sooner. One would think there would have been a Superfriends (1999) already. Somebody dropped the ball. Well, yeah, pretty much everyone dropped the ball when making superhero movies back then, except Richard Donner and Tim Burton and even they weren't infallible. I can imagine getting the actors to cooperate back then would have been a headache. The cinematic attitude towards film was just completely different. "Wait. You want me in HOW many of these?! I DO have a career, you know! I'm Howard Handsome, Academy Award winning ACTOR!" |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:23:37 GMT
It is odd. You'd think it would've been done ten years ago. But I don't think it would have the same impact without a "phase one" build up of stand alone introductions. Of course, you could argue (and for the record I do) that they haven't really done that here.
I find it even stranger that there was an Electra movie and a Catwoman movie before a WW movie. Chock it up to the idiocy of studio execs.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Sept 6, 2017 21:27:27 GMT
Chock it up to the idiocy of studio execs.  |
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Post by scabab on Sept 6, 2017 21:28:01 GMT
It is pretty surprising that with the early successes of Superman the Movie (1978) and Batman (1989) no one thought to combine forces sooner. One would think there would have been a Superfriends (1999) already. Somebody dropped the ball. There was an earlier attempt. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_in_filmFrom back around 2001/2002. Wolfgang Peterson was attached to direct. Scripts were written. Actors were approached but in the end they dropped it to focus on the individual movies which led to Batman Begins and Superman Returns instead. Never mind doing a Superman and Batman movie sooner they had a huge amount of trouble even getting a Superman movie to be made. It took 18 years for them to make another one. Nicolas Cage almost ended up playing Superman. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:30:30 GMT
It is odd. You'd think it would've been done ten years ago. But I don't think it would have the same impact without a "phase one" build up of stand alone introductions. Of course, you could argue (and for the record I do) that they haven't really done that here. I find it even stranger that there was an Electra movie and a Catwoman movie before a WW movie. Chock it up to the idiocy of studio execs. They haven't. As I just got down telling Scabab, they've had the same number of years and almost same number of films between MoS and JL as the first Ironman and first Avengers, but with none of the set up. The only characters to get proper dues so far are Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and only two of them have had their own films. As I used to say on the original Internet Movie Database, they could have started the DC cinematic universe with Batman Begins had someone with the vision, pull, and charisma to get everyone on board been working at WB back then. |
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Sept 6, 2017 21:30:46 GMT
It is pretty surprising that with the early successes of Superman the Movie (1978) and Batman (1989) no one thought to combine forces sooner. One would think there would have been a Superfriends (1999) already. Somebody dropped the ball. There was an earlier attempt. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_in_filmFrom back around 2001/2002. Wolfgang Peterson was attached to direct. Scripts were written. Actors were approached but in the end they dropped it to focus on the individual movies which led to Batman Begins and Superman Returns instead. Never mind doing a Superman and Batman movie sooner they had a huge amount of trouble even getting a Superman movie to be made. It took 18 years for them to make another one. Nicolas Cage almost ended up playing Superman. I do remember that, and also the aborted George Miller attempt. I was just daydreaming about a Christopher Reeve / Michael Keaton version! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:33:31 GMT
There was an earlier attempt. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_in_filmFrom back around 2001/2002. Wolfgang Peterson was attached to direct. Scripts were written. Actors were approached but in the end they dropped it to focus on the individual movies which led to Batman Begins and Superman Returns instead. Never mind doing a Superman and Batman movie sooner they had a huge amount of trouble even getting a Superman movie to be made. It took 18 years for them to make another one. Nicolas Cage almost ended up playing Superman. I do remember that, and also the aborted George Miller attempt. I was just daydreaming about a Christopher Reeve / Michael Keaton version! I can actually see Reeve agreeing to do it, but God only knows if Keaton would have. |
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Sept 6, 2017 21:35:20 GMT
It is odd. You'd think it would've been done ten years ago. As I used to say on the original Internet Movie Database, they could have started the DC cinematic universe with Batman Begins had someone with the vision, pull, and charisma to get everyone on board been working at WB back then. Agreed! I have stated many times how shocked I was that they didn't keep the Dark Knight series going, and have it lead in to a DC Universe. |
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