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Post by msdemos on Sept 11, 2017 14:33:15 GMT
Okay, just because people think a certain way, or hold certain beliefs, doesn't necessarily mean those thoughts or beliefs are based in actual fact..........but simply based on the MILLIONS of stories, over many, many centuries, of all the ghostly visits, and/or UFO/alien encounters that people have reported, one is naturally lead to the conclusion that there MUST be something to BOTH. What.........EVERY single person that EVER told others about ghostly encounters, or EVER saw a UFO, was COMPLETELY and TOTALLY lying (or COMPLETELY mistaken in what they actually saw) ?? Come on........if MILLIONS of people reported seeing a horrific crime being committed, chances are pretty DAMN good that that crime was actually committed (NOW, the actual DETAILS of certain specifics of that crime being committed may vary from person to person, but that doesn't change the basic fact that a crime was committed, and that MILLIONS of people witnessed it). Anyone ??  SAVE FERRIS |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 11, 2017 17:11:43 GMT
.....but simply based on the MILLIONS of stories, over many, many centuries, of all the ghostly visits, and/or UFO/alien encounters that people have reported, one is naturally lead to the conclusion that there MUST be something to BOTH. SAVE FERRISGiven that all of these phenomena completely fail all scientific tests for objective reality, the only "something" we can derive from these reports is that people are gullible. Our brains are evolved to reap the benefits from "false positive" perceptions, meaning it is better to think you are perceiving an intelligent agent or its actions and be wrong about it than to fail to notice an intelligent agent and end up getting eaten by it. |
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Post by Sarge on Sept 11, 2017 21:50:31 GMT
Generally speaking, analogies cause more problems in arguments than they solve. But even if millions of people did see the same ghost at the same time, it is not proof that ghosts exist. Millions of people saw the Statue of Liberty disappear in a magic trick, yet it didn't. Research eyewitness reports of crimes and you'll find that people fabricate stories, sometimes intentionally and sometimes subconsciously. Human beings are unreliable witnesses even in groups; some would say, especially in groups.
To prove something supernatural exists, you at least need theoretical (science) groundwork that it's possible for supernatural beings to exist and we have none.
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 12, 2017 10:27:55 GMT
Matter exists. It has either existed forever or it came into existence from nothing. Both cases defy natural laws as we know them, thereby supernatural by definition. There is no natural law to speak of that is violated in either case. Not one. |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 13, 2017 10:39:40 GMT
Infinite regress violates The Law of Causality, and nothing begets nothing. It's a basic First Cause argument. The so-called "law of causality" is not a scientific or "natural law". You will not find it in a single modern textbook of physics or cosmology. It is merely an extremely dubious philosophical or metaphysical assertion made by people who want to create the illusion that their supernatural beliefs have some basis in science. |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 15, 2017 16:49:06 GMT
The Law of Cause and Effect (i.e, the "Law of Causality") is bolstered by validation of The Law of Conservation of Energy. This is complete and utter bullshit and you have no idea what you are talking about. As a matter of fact, many physicists actually think modern science has made the very notion of "cause" or "causation" meaningless, or at least suspect, and have encouraged their peers to essentially drop the concept altogether. I have no strong opinions on whether that view is correct, but the very fact that it is being entertained by a significant population in the scientific community proves that "cause and effect" do not have the central role you imagine they do. Again, you cannot name a single natural law, found in scientific texts and believed in my the scientific community, which is violated in either case. You're just pulling theological philosophical nonsense out of your ass with zero scientific support. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Sept 15, 2017 20:37:47 GMT
Okay, just because people think a certain way, or hold certain beliefs, doesn't necessarily mean those thoughts or beliefs are based in actual fact..........but simply based on the MILLIONS of stories, over many, many centuries, of all the ghostly visits, and/or UFO/alien encounters that people have reported, one is naturally lead to the conclusion that there MUST be something to BOTH. What.........EVERY single person that EVER told others about ghostly encounters, or EVER saw a UFO, was COMPLETELY and TOTALLY lying (or COMPLETELY mistaken in what they actually saw) ?? Come on........if MILLIONS of people reported seeing a horrific crime being committed, chances are pretty DAMN good that that crime was actually committed (NOW, the actual DETAILS of certain specifics of that crime being committed may vary from person to person, but that doesn't change the basic fact that a crime was committed, and that MILLIONS of people witnessed it). Anyone ?? SAVE FERRIS"Come on........if MILLIONS of people reported seeing a horrific crime being committed, chances are pretty DAMN good that that crime was actually committed " Whether or not that works logically, a crucial difference is that it's about something that we know can happen, where we know that via methods other than hearsay. Ghosts, etc. are not something that we know can happen . . . and in fact, the idea of them is fairly incoherent, because it relies on incoherent metaphysical claims. |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 16, 2017 11:13:13 GMT
faustus5 There is no need to appeal to authority. Without 1, there can be no 2. You obviously have no idea what an appeal to authority is. |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 17, 2017 12:34:52 GMT
Think for yourself and it won't be an issue. Only an idiot who has no interest in objective reality (or any intellectual curiosity at all) rejects the work of thousands of smart, hard working people who came before in favor of personal fantasies and wish fulfillment. Think for yourself, sure--after you've learned a few things so you can avoid the mistakes of the past and capitalize on the great ideas other people came up with. Otherwise, "think for yourself" becomes nothing more than a slogan for making ignorance seem like a virtue--which is why one finds it being bandied about so often by evolution and climate change deniers as a means to deny science that clashes with their religious and political beliefs. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 1:54:59 GMT
Okay, just because people think a certain way, or hold certain beliefs, doesn't necessarily mean those thoughts or beliefs are based in actual fact..........but simply based on the MILLIONS of stories, over many, many centuries, of all the ghostly visits, and/or UFO/alien encounters that people have reported, one is naturally lead to the conclusion that there MUST be something to BOTH. What.........EVERY single person that EVER told others about ghostly encounters, or EVER saw a UFO, was COMPLETELY and TOTALLY lying (or COMPLETELY mistaken in what they actually saw) ?? Yes, I could certainly believe that. Consider how many times people have told others about something. I mean, every single story told about every single person on every single topic in the whole history of the world. That must run into the trillions, right? Now assume that people are 99% truthful and accurate. Which is a gigantic overstatement, but just say. That would mean there are tens of billions of untruthful and inaccurate stories floating around, at an absolute minimum. So sure. Why not millions of false stories? It would be weird if there weren't millions of false stories in the world. But you're comparing one event to many, which makes it an invalid comparison. If millions of people reported seeing A ghost, then sure, that would be super impressive. But that never, ever happens. What happens is millions of people reporting millions of different ghosts. The valid comparison would be to say "Have millions of people reported seeing crimes happen falsely?" And yes. If you added up every person that ever falsely reported a crime, or reported one and got it wrong, then that probably would come to millions. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 18, 2017 4:17:39 GMT
Think for yourself and it won't be an issue. Only an idiot who has no interest in objective reality (or any intellectual curiosity at all) rejects the work of thousands of smart, hard working people who came before in favor of personal fantasies and wish fulfillment. Think for yourself, sure--after you've learned a few things so you can avoid the mistakes of the past and capitalize on the great ideas other people came up with. Otherwise, "think for yourself" becomes nothing more than a slogan for making ignorance seem like a virtue--which is why one finds it being bandied about so often by evolution and climate change deniers as a means to deny science that clashes with their religious and political beliefs. When you resort to "Only an idiot...." speeches, it means you've lost. |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 18, 2017 10:45:22 GMT
When you resort to "Only an idiot...." speeches, it means you've lost. When you make any kind of post at all, it means you've lost. |
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Post by faustus5 on Sept 19, 2017 10:44:05 GMT
I don't need "smart, hard working people" to tell me that 2 is two ones, or that 0+0=0. I don't think you do, either. In your failed attempt to substitute pithy slogans for intelligent thought, you are losing the fact that you made false claims about the centrality of causality to scientific thinking. Changing the subject only works when you are having a discussion with someone who has the attention span of a gnat. You aren't in that situation with me. |
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 20, 2017 16:12:25 GMT
Only an idiot who has no interest in objective reality (or any intellectual curiosity at all) rejects the work of thousands of smart, hard working people who came before in favor of personal fantasies and wish fulfillment. Think for yourself, sure--after you've learned a few things so you can avoid the mistakes of the past and capitalize on the great ideas other people came up with. Otherwise, "think for yourself" becomes nothing more than a slogan for making ignorance seem like a virtue--which is why one finds it being bandied about so often by evolution and climate change deniers as a means to deny science that clashes with their religious and political beliefs. I don't need "smart, hard working people" to tell me that 2 is two ones, or that 0+0=0. I don't think you do, either. Um, yes, you do. Someone smarter than you taught you that. You didn't come up with it. |
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Post by MCDemuth on Sept 20, 2017 22:06:56 GMT
Human beings are unreliable witnesses even in groups; some would say, especially in groups. They why do people testify in court rooms? As a whole... Either they ARE reliable.. OR... they are NOT reliable! You can't have it BOTH ways...Especially when one person wants to apply the "unreliable" excuse to the debunk mysteries of the unexplained. |
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Post by MCDemuth on Sept 20, 2017 22:14:59 GMT
supernatural ( adj.): Not subject to explanation according to natural laws Just need to clarify here for our discussion here... Which natural laws? The ones we know about in 2017? Our understanding of the universe is always changing. A lot of what was science fiction 200 years ago, is fact today. |
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 20, 2017 22:20:11 GMT
Um, yes, you do. Someone smarter than you taught you that. You didn't come up with it. I once had some apples. Then someone gave me some more apples. I knew then that I had more apples than I had before. "Two" is just a label. No "expert" necessary. That's not the same. Knowing how to compare sizes is not the same as knowing how to add them into a coherent and meaningful amount. Two is not just a label. It's a numerical value. Crucial in calculations. Essentially, it's a different as claiming to know how rockets work because you've lit some fuses versus actually understanding the chemistry behind the fuses. |
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 20, 2017 22:23:58 GMT
Human beings are unreliable witnesses even in groups; some would say, especially in groups. As a whole... Either they ARE reliable.. OR... they are NOT reliable! You can't have it BOTH ways...Especially when one person wants to apply the "unreliable" excuse to the debunk mysteries of the unexplained. Because most people still believe people are reliable witnesses. But studies have proven time and time again that we're not. It's something we still haven't accepted. We all think we're good witnesses. And yes, you can have it both ways. Some people might have a stronger memory than others. But it's not perfect. |
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Post by MCDemuth on Sept 20, 2017 22:33:23 GMT
If millions of people reported seeing A ghost, then sure, that would be super impressive. But that never, ever happens. As I understand, there HAVE been a few cases where several hundred to a couple of thousand people witnessed seeing the same UFO at the same time... And yet that doesn't seem to mean anything... Because, text books still don't say that UFOs exist... Our society has a real problem with what is proof, and what isn't... Apparently, just seeing these things, Like UFOs isn't valid enough... Especially when reports come from highly trained people like: Police Officers who are more observant, and Pilots who work with planes. Which still makes me wonder why people go to court to testify about what they "saw"... If humans are not reliable in what they see. Still waiting for people to explain what the invisible force is that would yank a lunch pail from a man's hand, if it isn't a spirit. Unexplained things DO happen. It's just sad that so many people refuse to even believe in the "possibility" of such things, that so few people risk getting involved in doing genuine research, out of fear of being ridiculed. Skeptical is one thing, close minded is another. |
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 20, 2017 22:40:27 GMT
Oh, I agree: unexplained things most certainly do happen. Every day.
But that doesn't mean it was supernatural. Just that the person experiencing it doesn't know what it is.
Skeptical means wanting proof. And claiming something happened isn't proof. It must be recorded and/or duplicated.
We can create mini-black holes. Yet we can't recreate a ghost? That alone says something.
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