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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 11:27:23 GMT
Three Questions pertaining to Suicide.
1. Why aren't more people committing suicide? Fear of not existing, fear of eternal damnation, or fear of the unknown?
2. If you knew there was an afterlife, better than this world would you do it?
3. What is the difference between someone willing to commit suicide and someone who cannot go through with it?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 14, 2017 11:35:20 GMT
1. They don;t want to
2. There's only life and we can often make our own world better
3. Intelligence, rationality, medication...
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 14, 2017 11:37:11 GMT
Three Questions pertaining to Suicide. 1. Why aren't more people committing suicide? Fear of not existing, fear of eternal damnation, or fear of the unknown? Most people are not suicidal and are unlikely ever to be seriously so. No. One is dead and the other not. |
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Post by cupcakes on Sept 14, 2017 12:19:31 GMT
tpfkar Their actual calculus is that life is still a (however slim) net-positive, or they aren't competent to actually know or do.
Clearly, I was not ready |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2017 12:22:17 GMT
I can speak only for myself. It would have been like walking out on a movie and never finding out how it ends.
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Post by tickingmask on Sept 14, 2017 12:59:54 GMT
Three Questions pertaining to Suicide. 1. Why aren't more people committing suicide? Fear of not existing, fear of eternal damnation, or fear of the unknown? 2. If you knew there was an afterlife, better than this world would you do it? 3. What is the difference between someone willing to commit suicide and someone who cannot go through with it? 1. For the same reason more people aren't getting tattoos. Once it's done, there's no going back.
2. No. The afterlife will always be there for me. Why rush it?
3. Huh? One changed their mind, the other didn't?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 13:02:46 GMT
3. Huh? One changed their mind, the other didn't?
What I mean is, what driving factor do you suspect allows one person to push through and actually kill themselves? While others attempt suicide, but at the last minute stop. It can't simply be changing their mind. I feel as if one person is at a different mental state than the other. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 13:23:29 GMT
Three Questions pertaining to Suicide. 1. Why aren't more people committing suicide? Fear of not existing, fear of eternal damnation, or fear of the unknown? 2. If you knew there was an afterlife, better than this world would you do it? 3. What is the difference between someone willing to commit suicide and someone who cannot go through with it? 1. a)Society makes it difficult and very risky to commit suicide by removing access to the most effective and painless means of doing so. b) It is very difficult to overcome one's own biological programming with regards to doing harm to oneself. People may not have the degree of learned fearlessness which would enable them to commit suicide (this is studied and verified). c) Many people believe that suicide will be trading off a finite lifetime of suffering for infinite torture at the hands of their deity or the devil d) Many people believe that it is their duty to stay around for family and friends. e) Many people hold on to futile hope of things improving (I knew one guy who was very depressed who didn't want to kill himself because he didn't want to finish his life having never been happy and never been in a loving relationship). f) People are superstitious about non-existence. 2. I would still be constrained by points a and b. But if I had ready access to a means to commit suicide, then I'd do it regardless. 3. Learned fearlessness is the main one, although other factors may include being unhampered by religious or superstitious beliefs, or not feeling that it is one's duty to suffer in order to spare others suffering. |
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Post by captainbryce on Sept 14, 2017 13:35:34 GMT
Three Questions pertaining to Suicide. 1. Why aren't more people committing suicide? Fear of not existing, fear of eternal damnation, or fear of the unknown? 2. If you knew there was an afterlife, better than this world would you do it? 3. What is the difference between someone willing to commit suicide and someone who cannot go through with it? 1) a- Suicide goes against the natural instinct of every animal. Animals (including people) have evolved to naturally fear death (it's what keeps us alive and allows us to perpetuate the species). b- Many people rather enjoy life and feel that they have things to live for (getting married, having children, watching them grow up, spending time with family, seeing the world, making lots of money, becoming Presidet, etc). Suicide is kind of a waste of potential. 2) Logically yes. But since I have no reason to believe that, it's more logical to continue living for as long as possible and make the best of this life, in this world. 3) One results in death, and the other results in the person still living. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 14, 2017 14:37:39 GMT
Three Questions pertaining to Suicide. 1. Why aren't more people committing suicide? Fear of not existing, fear of eternal damnation, or fear of the unknown? 2. If you knew there was an afterlife, better than this world would you do it? 3. What is the difference between someone willing to commit suicide and someone who cannot go through with it? 1) I'm going to go with fear of the unknown because no one really knows what's there. But those who claim to believe in the afterlife are taught by their religion not to do it or they go to whatever their bad place is. So I guess damnation is second.
2) See the second sentence above.
3) The difference is mental illness. There are very, VERY, few good reasons to commit suicide (you're going to die a long drawn out death, your death will save lives, etc.) but depression and desperation are not one of them.
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. With life, time, and a different outlook all problems can be overcome. In suicide you're just giving in to fear. As hard as it may be, you must be stronger than that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 14:49:26 GMT
3) The difference is mental illness. There are very, VERY, few good reasons to commit suicide (you're going to die a long drawn out death, your death will save lives, etc.) but depression and desperation are not one of them.
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. With life, time, and a different outlook all problems can be overcome. In suicide you're just giving in to fear. As hard as it may be, you must be stronger than that.
Not all individuals who commit suicide had mental illness, and regardless of that, mental illness with bleak prospects of recovery is a good reason to commit suicide. Why should something that one is doing for themselves and only for themselves (to spare future suffering) have to satisfy anyone else's acceptable justifications for that action? And why should someone like you get to be the arbiter of what degree of suffering someone should have to endure just to have a mere chance at some speculative and nebulous future benefit? A good reason to commit suicide is any reason that the individual has carefully considered, and should not have to be validated or sanctioned by religious people who are terrified of facing up to their own mortality. |
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Post by cupcakes on Sept 14, 2017 14:58:29 GMT
tpfkar
3) The difference is mental illness. There are very, VERY, few good reasons to commit suicide (you're going to die a long drawn out death, your death will save lives, etc.) but depression and desperation are not one of them.
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. With life, time, and a different outlook all problems can be overcome. In suicide you're just giving in to fear. As hard as it may be, you must be stronger than that.
Not all individuals who commit suicide had mental illness, and regardless of that, mental illness with bleak prospects of recovery is a good reason to commit suicide. Why should something that one is doing for themselves and only for themselves (to spare future suffering) have to satisfy anyone else's acceptable justifications for that action? And why should someone like you get to be the arbiter of what degree of suffering someone should have to endure just to have a mere chance at some speculative and nebulous future benefit? A good reason to commit suicide is any reason that the individual has carefully considered, and should not have to be validated or sanctioned by religious people who are terrified of facing up to their own mortality. They can't practically be stopped if they are mentally competent and don't trivially make scenes involving others. But we have a duty of helping the deranged and not sanitizing them out of existence, especially on the back of the desire for all sentient life to end.
And if society wants the fairest possible state of affairs, that would mean no humans and no society. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 14, 2017 15:26:42 GMT
3) The difference is mental illness. There are very, VERY, few good reasons to commit suicide (you're going to die a long drawn out death, your death will save lives, etc.) but depression and desperation are not one of them.
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. With life, time, and a different outlook all problems can be overcome. In suicide you're just giving in to fear. As hard as it may be, you must be stronger than that.
Not all individuals who commit suicide had mental illness, and regardless of that, mental illness with bleak prospects of recovery is a good reason to commit suicide. Why should something that one is doing for themselves and only for themselves (to spare future suffering) have to satisfy anyone else's acceptable justifications for that action? And why should someone like you get to be the arbiter of what degree of suffering someone should have to endure just to have a mere chance at some speculative and nebulous future benefit? A good reason to commit suicide is any reason that the individual has carefully considered, and should not have to be validated or sanctioned by religious people who are terrified of facing up to their own mortality. Aw man, I just knew when I wrote "mental illness" that someone was going to call me out on it. Let me elaborate...
When is say mental illness I don't mean that a person is certifiably crazy. Mental illnesses are a spectrum disorder, just like any other. For example, ever have a cold that went away in two days, and another cold that went on for two weeks? Ever hear of anyone having a fight against cancer that was taken care of with one chemo treatment and they never had it again and lived a happy life, and another person who nothing worked for them and died from it? Mental Illness is like that. It ranges from anything to mild depression or phobia to outright schizophrenia and running around in the street covered in peanut butter yelling "I love frogs".
If we all accept that being alive, healthy and happy, is the desired state then it is not reasonable, it is not within healthy parameters, to think about killing oneself. All things being equal, if you are thinking about killing yourself, you fall into one of two categories: You're crying our for attention, or you're thoughts are not within healthy parameters. Cutting oneself is not healthy. Over or under eating is not healthy. Thinking about dying all the time is not healthy. And thinking that your problems are SO insurmountable that its better to die than to face them is not healthy.
Any healthcare professional in the world, any priest, any loved one, any decent human being, is going to try to get you some help rather than say "yeah, sure, killing yourself is reasonable."
p.s. this has nothing to do with religion as I am not a religious person, and I completely disagree that there's any scenario (other than some of the ones I mentioned in my first post) where "careful consideration" will bring you to the conclusion that death is the best option (unless, like I said above: You're dying of incurable painful cancer, etc).
If anything "careful consideration" would bring you to the conclusion that with life all things are possible whereas with death your options are over.
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Post by koskiewicz on Sept 14, 2017 15:42:05 GMT
...this thread should be dedicated to the theme song from the TV series M*A*S*H - "Suicide is Painless"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 16:10:50 GMT
Aw man, I just knew when I wrote "mental illness" that someone was going to call me out on it. Let me elaborate...
When is say mental illness I don't mean that a person is certifiably crazy. Mental illnesses are a spectrum disorder, just like any other. For example, ever have a cold that went away in two days, and another cold that went on for two weeks? Ever hear of anyone having a fight against cancer that was taken care of with one chemo treatment and they never had it again and lived a happy life, and another person who nothing worked for them and died from it? Mental Illness is like that. It ranges from anything to mild depression or phobia to outright schizophrenia and running around in the street covered in peanut butter yelling "I love frogs".
If we all accept that being alive, healthy and happy, is the desired state then it is not reasonable, it is not within healthy parameters, to think about killing oneself. All things being equal, if you are thinking about killing yourself, you fall into one of two categories: You're crying our for attention, or you're thoughts are not within healthy parameters. Cutting oneself is not healthy. Over or under eating is not healthy. Thinking about dying all the time is not healthy. And thinking that your problems are SO insurmountable that its better to die than to face them is not healthy.
Any healthcare professional in the world, any priest, any loved one, any decent human being, is going to try to get you some help rather than say "yeah, sure, killing yourself is reasonable."
p.s. this has nothing to do with religion as I am not a religious person, and I completely disagree that there's any scenario (other than some of the ones I mentioned in my first post) where "careful consideration" will bring you to the conclusion that death is the best option (unless, like I said above: You're dying of incurable painful cancer, etc).
If anything "careful consideration" would bring you to the conclusion that with life all things are possible whereas with death your options are over.
Life is not conducive to making it possible for everyone to be within those "healthy parameters". So you're saying that if someone is unhappy because they are homeless, because they have a severe illness which reduces their quality of life to nothing, or if they are in debt over their heads to the notoriously vicious local loan sharks, then all of those people are mentally ill because they have a negative mental state in reaction to conditions that virtually anyone would find unpleasant, healthy minds may react negatively to unpleasant experiences. Being unhappy when one's life is in turmoil is not a symptom of mental illness. Mental illness is disordered thinking and being unable to function as one would like, when there are no external explanations for that condition. If you have to be alive, then of course being healthy and happy is the optimal state of mind in which to be. But being 'alive' isn't necessarily preferable to being dead, given that if you were dead, you would not feel deprived of any of the things that you enjoyed or may have enjoyed when you were alive. Death is the cessation of any desire of need to chase the elusive goal of happiness and fulfillment, and it is completely rational to foreclose on the chances of having an enjoyable life if the conditions in which you are living your life make those outcomes unlikely. Considering the fact that one cannot be deprived of anything if one is dead, and that the pleasures in life mainly consist of relief from deprivation will lead one to the conclusion that dying peacefully is better than a life of suffering. The idea that the worst life is always better than the best death is incomprehensibly absurd, and is the hallmark of superstitious thinking. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 16:19:40 GMT
tpfkar Not all individuals who commit suicide had mental illness, and regardless of that, mental illness with bleak prospects of recovery is a good reason to commit suicide. Why should something that one is doing for themselves and only for themselves (to spare future suffering) have to satisfy anyone else's acceptable justifications for that action? And why should someone like you get to be the arbiter of what degree of suffering someone should have to endure just to have a mere chance at some speculative and nebulous future benefit? A good reason to commit suicide is any reason that the individual has carefully considered, and should not have to be validated or sanctioned by religious people who are terrified of facing up to their own mortality. They can't practically be stopped if they are mentally competent and don't trivially make scenes involving others. But we have a duty of helping the deranged and not sanitizing them out of existence, especially on the back of the desire for all sentient life to end.
And if society wants the fairest possible state of affairs, that would mean no humans and no society.Suicide is not a criminal act in many jurisdictions. Therefore, it makes no sense to criminalise the assistance of a lawful act and there are no other comparable examples in which one can be prosecuted for assisting someone to act in a lawful manner. |
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Post by cupcakes on Sept 14, 2017 16:19:47 GMT
tpfkar Life is not conducive to making it possible for everyone to be within those "healthy parameters". So you're saying that if someone is unhappy because they are homeless, because they have a severe illness which reduces their quality of life to nothing, or if they are in debt over their heads to the notoriously vicious local loan sharks, then all of those people are mentally ill because they have a negative reaction to conditions that virtually anyone would find unpleasant. If you have to be alive, then of course being healthy and happy is the optimal state of mind in which to be. But being 'alive' isn't necessarily preferable to being dead, given that if you were dead, you would not feel deprived of any of the things that you enjoyed or may have enjoyed when you were alive. Death is the cessation of any desire of need to chase the elusive goal of happiness and fulfillment, and it is completely rational to foreclose on the chances of having an enjoyable life if the conditions in which you are living your life make those outcomes unlikely. Considering the fact that one cannot be deprived of anything if one is dead, and that the pleasures in life mainly consist of relief from deprivation will lead one to the conclusion that dying peacefully is better than a life of suffering. The idea that the worst life is always better than the best death is incomprehensibly absurd, and is the hallmark of superstitious thinking. There are plenty of rational reasons for suicide. And there are even more irrational ones. And then there is the morbid take-em-all-with-me psychopathy.
And they shouldn't be expected to pay the price of everyone else's joy. Especially if nobody would be deprived of that joy in a universe with no sentient life. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 16:22:19 GMT
tpfkar Life is not conducive to making it possible for everyone to be within those "healthy parameters". So you're saying that if someone is unhappy because they are homeless, because they have a severe illness which reduces their quality of life to nothing, or if they are in debt over their heads to the notoriously vicious local loan sharks, then all of those people are mentally ill because they have a negative reaction to conditions that virtually anyone would find unpleasant. If you have to be alive, then of course being healthy and happy is the optimal state of mind in which to be. But being 'alive' isn't necessarily preferable to being dead, given that if you were dead, you would not feel deprived of any of the things that you enjoyed or may have enjoyed when you were alive. Death is the cessation of any desire of need to chase the elusive goal of happiness and fulfillment, and it is completely rational to foreclose on the chances of having an enjoyable life if the conditions in which you are living your life make those outcomes unlikely. Considering the fact that one cannot be deprived of anything if one is dead, and that the pleasures in life mainly consist of relief from deprivation will lead one to the conclusion that dying peacefully is better than a life of suffering. The idea that the worst life is always better than the best death is incomprehensibly absurd, and is the hallmark of superstitious thinking. There are plenty of rational reasons for suicide. And there are even more irrational ones. And then there is the morbid take-em-all-with-me psychopathy.
And they shouldn't be expected to pay the price of everyone else's joy. Especially if nobody would be deprived of that joy in a universe with no sentient life.An irrational reason for suicide would be something like "When hippos are upset, their sweat turns red". But suicide in response to prolonged suffering is completely rational. Even if the suffering in question is induced by psychotic hallucinations or delusions. And wanting people not to be subjected to a risky (and ultimately meaningless) venture to which they cannot consent is not psychopathy. |
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Post by cupcakes on Sept 14, 2017 16:33:06 GMT
An irrational reason for suicide would be something like "When hippos are upset, their sweat turns red". But suicide in response to prolonged suffering is completely rational. Even if the suffering in question is induced by psychotic hallucinations or delusions. And wanting people not to be subjected to a risky (and ultimately meaningless) venture to which they cannot consent is not psychopathy. An irrational reason for suicide is "something stupid I posted went viral". An irrational and narcissistic reason for trying to institute state-facilitated suicide for all is personal timidity, demented misanthropy, and utter selfishness. A psychopathic reason reason for wanting all sentient life to end is "bad things can happen, and once they're dead they can't regret anyway".
Morally I would be fine with post-birth abortions, but I realise that this would probably be too radical to ever be implemented. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 14, 2017 16:36:53 GMT
So you're saying that if someone is unhappy because they are homeless, because they have a severe illness which reduces their quality of life to nothing, or if they are in debt over their heads to the notoriously vicious local loan sharks, then all of those people are mentally ill (?)Considering the fact that one cannot be deprived of anything if one is dead, and that the pleasures in life mainly consist of relief from deprivation will lead one to the conclusion that dying peacefully is better than a life of suffering. A) Did you actually read what wrote? Because I did say that there are some (very few, but some) circumstances in which suicide is an option, such as your: "they have a severe illness which reduces their quality of life to nothing". But if you are homeless that is not hopeless because you can go to a shelter and potentially start the process toward getting back into society. If you're in over your head notoriously vicious local loan sharks that is also not hopeless because you might figure out a way to pay them off. There's always hope.
B) When you start considering that its a good thing that one cannot be deprived of anything if one is dead then you're starting a slippery toward thinking its ok to just commit suicide. If you're opening that door then maybe you should get help.
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