ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Sept 15, 2017 17:06:53 GMT
The grass is always greener on the other side. Exactly. If the above is the truth, then I'm damn glad Kurtz didn't get to decide. Luke should not be the main protagonist in the ST and so I'm glad he's not. Palpatine sure as shit shouldn't be the antagonist in the ST. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Palpatine and I thought McDiarmid's performance in the PT was the finest acting performance in the franchise, but talk about recycled/rehashed! Who wants to see the same antagonist for all nine movies? No thanks, bring on Plagueis or whoever else Snoke really is. Because, we're just thrown a new villain and that's the reason to fear that villain. There's zero investment in a "new all powerful enemy"... Luke should definitely have had more time as a protagonist, just forcing shit characters on us doesn't make me care about any of them. Back to watching TFA Sucks vids!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 18:11:26 GMT
Exactly. If the above is the truth, then I'm damn glad Kurtz didn't get to decide. Luke should not be the main protagonist in the ST and so I'm glad he's not. Palpatine sure as shit shouldn't be the antagonist in the ST. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Palpatine and I thought McDiarmid's performance in the PT was the finest acting performance in the franchise, but talk about recycled/rehashed! Who wants to see the same antagonist for all nine movies? No thanks, bring on Plagueis or whoever else Snoke really is. Because, we're just thrown a new villain and that's the reason to fear that villain. There's zero investment in a "new all powerful enemy"... Luke should definitely have had more time as a protagonist, just forcing shit characters on us doesn't make me care about any of them. Back to watching TFA Sucks vids! Based on your definition of "just thrown" (I assume this is in reference to Snoke), you were "just thrown" a villain in ANH. You didn't seem to mind. You were "just thrown" a villain in TESB. You didn't seem to mind. And then again in ROTJ, almost none of Palpatine's backstory was explained. You didn't seem to mind. And if Luke was going to spend more time as a protagonist, then I guess Lucas should have made Ep. VII back in the 80s. Unless you wanted someone other than Hamill to play Luke?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 20:57:57 GMT
It's troubling to think that there is no actual vision for a cohesive trilogy here. I would think it would mean the opposite. Couldn't it be that the executive creative team is firing directors precisely because those directors aren't toeing the line when it comes to the basic story arc? It's been reported that JJ had no clue what the answers were to the questions posed in TFA. It was just another "mystery box" where he was going to let others finish everything up. There were no definitive answers to who Rey is or why Kylo turned. Which means they almost certainly had no clue where their arcs were headed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 21:02:19 GMT
They likely sign non disclosure agreements. Maybe Disney wanted to have the best of both worlds (from their perspective) they have his name attached the film and also Abrams. That way they can market it from both sides, like how they got Kasdan back even though he probably did next to nothing. The original plots that Gary Kurtz described sounded more interesting Went something like Episode 6: Luke confront Vader--fight between Vader and Emperor for Luke (the Emperor is either a hologram or a clone), Vader dies--Leia becomes leader, Han Solo dies. Episode 7: Luke travels the galaxy fighting remnants of the Empire, rebuilds Jedi order. Episode 8: Luke finds the Other Episode 9: Luke has final confrontation with the Emperor. Ackbar declares "it's a wrap!" Kurtz doesn't get enough credit for the OT. He really did create it along side Lucas. It's a shame they had a falling out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 21:34:38 GMT
I would think it would mean the opposite. Couldn't it be that the executive creative team is firing directors precisely because those directors aren't toeing the line when it comes to the basic story arc? It's been reported that JJ had no clue what the answers were to the questions posed in TFA. It was just another "mystery box" where he was going to let others finish everything up. There were no definitive answers to who Rey is or why Kylo turned. Which means they almost certainly had no clue where their arcs were headed. Which member of the SW team actually got quoted saying that? Anybody actually being paid by Disney will suffice. Let me know who said that.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 15, 2017 21:51:30 GMT
It's been reported that JJ had no clue what the answers were to the questions posed in TFA. It was just another "mystery box" where he was going to let others finish everything up. There were no definitive answers to who Rey is or why Kylo turned. Which means they almost certainly had no clue where their arcs were headed. Which member of the SW team actually got quoted saying that? Anybody actually being paid by Disney will suffice. Let me know who said that. Even if someone did, would it matter in this case? Star Wars has a history of not having clear direction. i.e. Luke Skywalker was originally the central character of Star Wars with the original title of the series being: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker As Taken From The Journal of the Whills. Then George Lucas changed it and made the six films being about the life and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Then he changed it again and said that the franchise was a "generational story." He had no clue. The same with the connection between Luke, Leia, and Vader. It was all retconning - as was the whole "from a certain point of view" nonsense. It's all just made up bullshit, guys.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 22:03:16 GMT
Which member of the SW team actually got quoted saying that? Anybody actually being paid by Disney will suffice. Let me know who said that. Even if someone did, would it matter in this case? Star Wars has a history of not having clear direction. i.e. Luke Skywalker was originally the central character of Star Wars with the original title of the series being: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker As Taken From The Journal of the Whills. Then George Lucas changed it and made the six films being about the life and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Then he changed it again and said that the franchise was a "generational story." He had no clue. The same with the connection between Luke, Leia, and Vader. It was all retconning - as was the whole "from a certain point of view" nonsense. It's all just made up bullshit, guys. Everything you just said. By the way, I got a copy of that original novel with dust jacket from '76 for my birthday. Can't wait to read it. Not only all the points you just made, but also, I like how "rumors" and blogs and "reports from anonymous sources" are debated as fact on this site. But only if it serves the purpose of bashing TFA/Kennedy/Abrams/Rey/Finn. But if I were to back up my Plagueis/Snoke theory by bringing up the deleted scene from ROTS where Palpatine just comes out and says to Anakin, "Plagueis created you," then it's all "NOT CANON! INVALID! NOT CANON! INVALID! FALSE!"
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Sept 15, 2017 22:49:35 GMT
I would think it would mean the opposite. Couldn't it be that the executive creative team is firing directors precisely because those directors aren't toeing the line when it comes to the basic story arc? It's been reported that JJ had no clue what the answers were to the questions posed in TFA. It was just another "mystery box" where he was going to let others finish everything up. There were no definitive answers to who Rey is or why Kylo turned. Which means they almost certainly had no clue where their arcs were headed. There have been multiple statements by Jar Jar Abrams and Rian Johnson that corroborate this.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Sept 16, 2017 4:40:57 GMT
Because, we're just thrown a new villain and that's the reason to fear that villain. There's zero investment in a "new all powerful enemy"... Luke should definitely have had more time as a protagonist, just forcing shit characters on us doesn't make me care about any of them. Back to watching TFA Sucks vids! Based on your definition of "just thrown" (I assume this is in reference to Snoke), you were "just thrown" a villain in ANH. You didn't seem to mind. You were "just thrown" a villain in TESB. You didn't seem to mind. And then again in ROTJ, almost none of Palpatine's backstory was explained. You didn't seem to mind. And if Luke was going to spend more time as a protagonist, then I guess Lucas should have made Ep. VII back in the 80s. Unless you wanted someone other than Hamill to play Luke? It's probably about structure, and organic exposition. The OT had it, TFA did not. You had a sense of the state of the Galaxy in the OT... Now it's just all unanswered questions. Due to the lack of consistency, overabundance of contrivance, hollow plot, I just never ended up caring about the villain or the heros in TFA. Yes, he should have made it in the 80's, or right after the PT(maybe the PT could have been made sooner in this imaginary mirror universe). I doubt he was short for cash even if people hated him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2017 20:19:40 GMT
It's been reported that JJ had no clue what the answers were to the questions posed in TFA. It was just another "mystery box" where he was going to let others finish everything up. There were no definitive answers to who Rey is or why Kylo turned. Which means they almost certainly had no clue where their arcs were headed. There have been multiple statements by Jar Jar Abrams and Rian Johnson that corroborate this. No snark intended. May I have links? I'm curious.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2017 20:20:36 GMT
Based on your definition of "just thrown" (I assume this is in reference to Snoke), you were "just thrown" a villain in ANH. You didn't seem to mind. You were "just thrown" a villain in TESB. You didn't seem to mind. And then again in ROTJ, almost none of Palpatine's backstory was explained. You didn't seem to mind. And if Luke was going to spend more time as a protagonist, then I guess Lucas should have made Ep. VII back in the 80s. Unless you wanted someone other than Hamill to play Luke? It's probably about structure, and organic exposition. The OT had it, TFA did not. You had a sense of the state of the Galaxy in the OT... Now it's just all unanswered questions. Due to the lack of consistency, overabundance of contrivance, hollow plot, I just never ended up caring about the villain or the heros in TFA. Yes, he should have made it in the 80's, or right after the PT(maybe the PT could have been made sooner in this imaginary mirror universe). I doubt he was short for cash even if people hated him. And which unanswered questions are there from TFA that did not exist in ANH? I can't think of any.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 0:09:12 GMT
Based on your definition of "just thrown" (I assume this is in reference to Snoke), you were "just thrown" a villain in ANH. You didn't seem to mind. You were "just thrown" a villain in TESB. You didn't seem to mind. And then again in ROTJ, almost none of Palpatine's backstory was explained. You didn't seem to mind. And if Luke was going to spend more time as a protagonist, then I guess Lucas should have made Ep. VII back in the 80s. Unless you wanted someone other than Hamill to play Luke? It's probably about structure, and organic exposition. The OT had it, TFA did not. You had a sense of the state of the Galaxy in the OT... Now it's just all unanswered questions. Due to the lack of consistency, overabundance of contrivance, hollow plot, I just never ended up caring about the villain or the heros in TFA. Yes, he should have made it in the 80's, or right after the PT(maybe the PT could have been made sooner in this imaginary mirror universe). I doubt he was short for cash even if people hated him. I do think that we got more exposition in ANH than in TFA. In ANH we got a concise explanation of the Force. We found out it involved focus and channeling it with your feelings. It also involved training and development. In TFA we have very little exposition on the Force. We know Darkside Kylo is being tempted by the Light. Other than a vision we have no exposition on Rey's connection to the Force. Why can she do so many things without training? Why is she so effective when being full of things like fear and doubt, which seems to contradict the other trilogies mythos? In ANH we got exposition on the nature of the the Rebel Alliance, the Empire and how they got to be where they're at. The Empire came after the Clone Wars. The Jedi existed before then for a thousand generations. Darth Vader helped the Empire destroy the Jedi. The Empire is lead by the Emperor and during ANH he transitions governmental control from senators to regional governors. The Rebellion is clearly not in controlling power of anything. They are trying to hide their identity and locations. They are being hunted and chased by the Empire's forces. In TFA we know that Leia is no longer considered a princess or a senator but a general. The First Order program they're Stormtroopers reminiscent of Clonetroopers. Other than that we know nothing about the Resistance, the First Order and how they got to be the way they are; other than they look and behave exactly like the Rebellion and the Empire. I guess we'll have to wait and see whether this hurts future exposition or plays into it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 20:00:53 GMT
It's probably about structure, and organic exposition. The OT had it, TFA did not. You had a sense of the state of the Galaxy in the OT... Now it's just all unanswered questions. Due to the lack of consistency, overabundance of contrivance, hollow plot, I just never ended up caring about the villain or the heros in TFA. Yes, he should have made it in the 80's, or right after the PT(maybe the PT could have been made sooner in this imaginary mirror universe). I doubt he was short for cash even if people hated him. In ANH we got a concise explanation of the Force. We found out it involved focus and channeling it with your feelings. It also involved training and development. This is true. So since this had already been established, you can't really hold it against TFA for not establishing it. Not true at all. We find out that (at least) the dark side can be used to warp either space, time or both in order to freeze animate objects, we see psychometry used for the first time on film, we see the Force assert itself. There's actually a stunning amount of exposition on the Force considering it had already been well-expounded upon in the OT and PT. Because it doesn't take training to do things with the Force. This was "old canon," it is "new canon," and it is common sense. As I've posted numerous times, Rey taps into the dark side both times she overcomes Kylo. i don't know why this is so hard for most people to see and/or why it's being ignored. It's a very big deal and no one really wants to deal with this fact. But that's why she's effective when she's afraid. If you watch closely, those times she's afraid, her fear turns to anger. And we all know what happens when that happens, right Yoda? No, it doesn't. It only contradicts success tapping into the Light Side. My opinion, those are true, true and false, but all debatable since exposition is such an open-ended word. The First Order arose from the ashes of the Empire following the Galactic Civil War. So there's actually more exposition in TFA on this topic. True, ANH did reveal this, but certainly you can't hold it against TFA that TFA did not reveal it since it had already been revealed. But to do tit-for-tat, in TFA, we learn important details about the galactic government that are not revealed in ANH, for instance its location. Kylo Ren helped the First Order destroy the New Jedi. The First Order is led by Snoke and during TFA, he gives the order to destroy the sitting galactic government. I'd call this an equally "shaking up on government," wouldn't you? There is no evidence of any star systems that are loyal to the First Order in TFA, thus, they are clearly not in controlling power of anything either. Rather than get such a boring David and Goliath style story, we get a much more interesting three-pronged conflict in TFA: An aggressive, well armed First Order that rules nothing, a wimpy, demilitarized Galactic Republic that rules everything, and a ragtag group of resistance fighters who have to hide their location from The First Order and their financial backing from the Senate. We know every bit as much about the Resistance as we did the Rebellion. We know every bit as much about The First Order as we did about the Empire. We can go fact for fact if you want.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Sept 19, 2017 12:16:14 GMT
Not true at all. We find out that (at least) the dark side can be used to warp either space, time or both in order to freeze animate objects, HAHAHAHA! It's laughable that you think that's what's going on. Man, you really want to overcomplicate things. This is just Disney/JJ changing the way the Force works to suit the needs of their shit story and add another useless mystery box. Because it doesn't take training to do things with the Force. This was "old canon," it is "new canon," and it is common sense. No, it does take training. You're very confused if you think otherwise. As I've posted numerous times, Rey taps into the dark side both times she overcomes Kylo. i don't know why this is so hard for most people to see and/or why it's being ignored. It's a very big deal and no one really wants to deal with this fact. But that's why she's effective when she's afraid. If you watch closely, those times she's afraid, her fear turns to anger. And we all know what happens when that happens, right Yoda? No, it doesn't. It only contradicts success tapping into the Light Side. Man you're really in love with this idea. Kudos for sticking to it! No, no we don't. Your entire post is just apologist justification, supposition, and fan theory.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 13:45:30 GMT
= Sep 17, 2017 at 4:00pm winterssuicide said: Because it doesn't take training to do things with the Force. This was "old canon," it is "new canon," and it is common sense. No, it does take training. You're very confused if you think otherwise. Somebody want to explain how younglings are discovered to this guy? Or what the purpose of the Inquisitors was? And if you want to go to Legends since a lot of you despise new canon, please explain to him how Palpatine was said to have accomplished all kinds of things with the Force before meeting Plagueis. Or how Plagueis exhibited his powers by murdering a fellow classmate before becoming Tenebrous' apprentice. I would've rebutted more of your reply, but it really didn't say anything substantive. If you'd like to try again with some substance, I'll be happy to educate you on the other accurate points I made about how TFA expounds on the background of its story as much as ANH did. This one about people not being able to use the Force was at least something I could respond to.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Sept 19, 2017 13:49:51 GMT
= Sep 17, 2017 at 4:00pm winterssuicide said: Because it doesn't take training to do things with the Force. This was "old canon," it is "new canon," and it is common sense. No, it does take training. You're very confused if you think otherwise. Somebody want to explain how younglings are discovered to this guy? Or what the purpose of the Inquisitors was? And if you want to go to Legends since a lot of you despise new canon, please explain to him how Palpatine was said to have accomplished all kinds of things with the Force before meeting Plagueis. Or how Plagueis exhibited his powers by murdering a fellow classmate before becoming Tenebrous' apprentice. I would've rebutted more of your reply, but it really didn't say anything substantive. If you'd like to try again with some substance, I'll be happy to educate you on the other accurate points I made about how TFA expounds on the background of its story as much as ANH did. This one about people not being able to use the Force was at least something I could respond to. Control, is the point...without training, the ability is wild. Anakin, without training, was merely a hyper-reflexive child. Anyway, no, Kylo did not alter space/time to freeze a blaster bolt. Disney did modify canon to make the Force sentient and speak to Rey through a lightsabre.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 13:56:59 GMT
Somebody want to explain how younglings are discovered to this guy? Or what the purpose of the Inquisitors was? And if you want to go to Legends since a lot of you despise new canon, please explain to him how Palpatine was said to have accomplished all kinds of things with the Force before meeting Plagueis. Or how Plagueis exhibited his powers by murdering a fellow classmate before becoming Tenebrous' apprentice. I would've rebutted more of your reply, but it really didn't say anything substantive. If you'd like to try again with some substance, I'll be happy to educate you on the other accurate points I made about how TFA expounds on the background of its story as much as ANH did. This one about people not being able to use the Force was at least something I could respond to. Control, is the point...without training, the ability is wild. Anakin, without training, was merely a hyper-reflexive child. Anyway, no, Kylo did not alter space/time to freeze a blaster bolt. Disney did modify canon to make the Force sentient and speak to Rey through a lightsabre. Did I say that someone could "have control" over the Force without training? Fuck no. I didn't. So nice argument. "It doesn't take training to use the Force," is what I said. And then Ryboto said, "yes it does," and then when shown canon examples of his inaccuracy, he straw mans. "Control" is what I meant, he said. Please explain what Kylo did. Disney modified canon in a bunch of ways. What the fuck is your point? That you don't want to accept it? Tough shit. I'm arguing canon and canon is what Disney says it is. Furthermore, they did not alter canon in TFA. They had already altered it in previous media to include psychometry, which is exactly what happened with Rey and Anakin's lightsaber. Did the Force call to her as well? Yep. But then after that: psychometry.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Sept 19, 2017 16:29:31 GMT
Control, is the point...without training, the ability is wild. Anakin, without training, was merely a hyper-reflexive child. Anyway, no, Kylo did not alter space/time to freeze a blaster bolt. Disney did modify canon to make the Force sentient and speak to Rey through a lightsabre. Did I say that someone could "have control" over the Force without training? Fuck no. I didn't. So nice argument. "It doesn't take training to use the Force," is what I said. And then Ryboto said, "yes it does," and then when shown canon examples of his inaccuracy, he straw mans. "Control" is what I meant, he said. Please explain what Kylo did. Disney modified canon in a bunch of ways. What the fuck is your point? That you don't want to accept it? Tough shit. I'm arguing canon and canon is what Disney says it is. Furthermore, they did not alter canon in TFA. They had already altered it in previous media to include psychometry, which is exactly what happened with Rey and Anakin's lightsaber. Did the Force call to her as well? Yep. But then after that: psychometry. Control was implied, because that's what Rey does. That's the example being cited. Kylo manipulated an energy field to manipulate energy. Just like all the other force-users do when they use telekinesis. They can create 'lightning' bolts, absorb energy, move large objects, all by manipulating the energy field they call "the force". That's all Kylo did. I don't have to accept it, because it is shit. It doesn't work with what we know of the universe if they start changing shit like the force being sentient, or talking through objects, or mind reading. Disney turning it into whatever magic lockpick they need is one of the reasons it's a shit movie.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 17:59:53 GMT
Did I say that someone could "have control" over the Force without training? Fuck no. I didn't. So nice argument. "It doesn't take training to use the Force," is what I said. And then Ryboto said, "yes it does," and then when shown canon examples of his inaccuracy, he straw mans. "Control" is what I meant, he said. Please explain what Kylo did. Disney modified canon in a bunch of ways. What the fuck is your point? That you don't want to accept it? Tough shit. I'm arguing canon and canon is what Disney says it is. Furthermore, they did not alter canon in TFA. They had already altered it in previous media to include psychometry, which is exactly what happened with Rey and Anakin's lightsaber. Did the Force call to her as well? Yep. But then after that: psychometry. Control was implied, because that's what Rey does. That's the example being cited. Kylo manipulated an energy field to manipulate energy. Just like all the other force-users do when they use telekinesis. They can create 'lightning' bolts, absorb energy, move large objects, all by manipulating the energy field they call "the force". That's all Kylo did. I don't have to accept it, because it is shit. It doesn't work with what we know of the universe if they start changing shit like the force being sentient, or talking through objects, or mind reading. Disney turning it into whatever magic lockpick they need is one of the reasons it's a shit movie. Your redundancy and gross generalization reveals you have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. I got news for you, Ryboto: a bolt from a blaster is just light. No one in SW has ever changed the path of light with their mind. In fact, I can't think of any work of fiction where telekinesis was used as a means of changing the speed or direction of light. In order to do so, one must manipulate either time or space. And it's not as simple as "I did something because I manipulated the Force." Legends and Canon both have broken Force-related powers into subcategories. There's telepathy, telekinesis, force lightning, mind tricks, illusions, visions, psychometry, psychokinesis and many more. All different ways of manipulating matter. I suggest reading Book of Sith and The Jedi Path so that you won't talk out of your ass anymore about this stuff. Future post by Ryboto: How you can manipulate water by manipulating water. (The rest of us call it "swimming," dude)
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 19, 2017 18:58:03 GMT
But you're assuming that he bailed at all. I don't get that's the case. He was contracted to do one movie, that's all, and he did it. Period.
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