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Post by hitchcockthelegend on Apr 30, 2020 19:27:13 GMT
Headley and Gough performed well in spite of the performances of their teams, they weren't dragged down by them. Well it's nice to see some kudos given here, much like Simon Jones I have always felt England were robbed of a few more years of quality fast bowling from Headley. While Gough, and I told him live on a radio show, kept us Brits proud during terrible sufferings against Oz. Pigeon, one of the greats of the greats, without a shadow of a doubt, but I do think it's unfair to dismiss Polly for not standing out against the all conquering Aussies. A super bowler and a genuine quality all rounder. But I understand the parameter's set out by our Oz friends, they do after all acknowledge Beefy, Freddie and Stokesy 
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Post by hitchcockthelegend on Apr 30, 2020 19:29:02 GMT
Jacques Kallis is a good example of a passive player who still looked impressive while his team was usually getting thrashed by us. He is right up there with the best all rounders ever.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Apr 30, 2020 20:58:30 GMT
Jacques Kallis is a good example of a passive player who still looked impressive while his team was usually getting thrashed by us. He is right up there with the best all rounders ever. And for me, while Kallis was a passive player in general (meaning he coukd score 100 and take 3 or 4 wickets every game and have no real impact on a series) he did have moments where he took over games. The Perth test in 08 where Saffers pulled off a record run chase. They were 3-180 odd with three overs left in day 4. In with a shot, but not in the ascendancy. Jacques took 40 off the last three overs and completely flipped the match. I never saw that from Pollock. Adelaide '98. Can he bowl the Saffers to the win? Nope. 2001-02. Can he stand up at Melbourne, bowl a big spell and get his team back into the series? Nope. Sydney 2006. 290 to play with and a day to win the test match. Will this finally be his moment? Nope. Great players take those moments, if Ponting's playing a great innings, great bowlers find ways to sieze that moment from him and make it theirs. I never saw that from Shaun. |
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Post by hoskotafe3 on May 9, 2020 5:21:08 GMT
So saw a facebook post on Wisden about the best players to average under 40. Now there's a realky obvious answer to this that never occurred to me and it wasn't any of the three answers I gave.
I said
1). Kim Hughes, who's average suffered due to being saddled with the captaincy (on the tours Greg Chappell didn't want to play) and playing his last 8 tests against peak West Indies.
2). Alec Stewart, who suffered from having to keep wicket and getting moved all over the batting order.
3). Imran Khan who averaged 50+ over the last 9 years of his career after a sress fracture restricted his bowling.
So what say everyone else? And who knows the obvious answer? (as obviously as Bradman is the GOAT this guy was THE greatest barsman to average sub 40)
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Post by Aj_June on May 9, 2020 7:10:28 GMT
So saw a facebook post on Wisden about the best players to average under 40. Now there's a realky obvious answer to this that never occurred to me and it wasn't any of the three answers I gave. I said 1). Kim Hughes, who's average suffered due to being saddled with the captaincy (on the tours Greg Chappell didn't want to play) and playing his last 8 tests against peak West Indies. 2). Alec Stewart, who suffered from having to keep wicket and getting moved all over the batting order. 3). Imran Khan who averaged 50+ over the last 9 years of his career after a sress fracture restricted his bowling. So what say everyone else? And who knows the obvious answer? (as obviously as Bradman is the GOAT this guy was THE greatest barsman to average sub 40) Some might say Hick or Ramprakash because they had great FC careers. But I separate potential in FC and Tests. These two were not good in Tests and that's why I don't count them. Michael Atherton definitely had a very good Test career in spite of the low average and deserved 40+. He often had to match up with best bowlers in good bowling conditions. Marvan Atapattu had decent records in Australia, England West Indies but couldn't get to 40 because of below par home average. MS Dhoni - Never seemed to care about Tests but if he did he could have have averaged 45.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on May 9, 2020 8:11:24 GMT
So saw a facebook post on Wisden about the best players to average under 40. Now there's a realky obvious answer to this that never occurred to me and it wasn't any of the three answers I gave. I said 1). Kim Hughes, who's average suffered due to being saddled with the captaincy (on the tours Greg Chappell didn't want to play) and playing his last 8 tests against peak West Indies. 2). Alec Stewart, who suffered from having to keep wicket and getting moved all over the batting order. 3). Imran Khan who averaged 50+ over the last 9 years of his career after a sress fracture restricted his bowling. So what say everyone else? And who knows the obvious answer? (as obviously as Bradman is the GOAT this guy was THE greatest barsman to average sub 40) Some might say Hick or Ramprakash because they had great FC careers. But I separate potential in FC and Tests. These two were not good in Tests and that's why I don't count them. Michael Atherton definitely had a very good Test career in spite of the low average and deserved 40+. He often had to match up with best bowlers in good bowling conditions. Marvan Atapattu had decent records in Australia, England West Indies but couldn't get to 40 because of below par home average. MS Dhoni - Never seemed to care about Tests but if he did he could have have averaged 45. Hick's an interesting one. While I agree he was average in tests I think he was very under rated as an ODI batsman. |
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Post by weststigersbob on May 9, 2020 8:21:21 GMT
Hick - still to this day I have no idea how he had the Test career he had. Same goes for Ramprakash and Bevan. Hick was a decent ODI batsman, and we all know how good Bevan was.
As for the Greatest player ever to average under 40 - my immediate thought was W.G Grace. Even in his amazing FC class career, he still didn’t average 40.
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Post by Power Ranger on May 9, 2020 10:43:05 GMT
So saw a facebook post on Wisden about the best players to average under 40. Now there's a realky obvious answer to this that never occurred to me and it wasn't any of the three answers I gave. I said 1). Kim Hughes, who's average suffered due to being saddled with the captaincy (on the tours Greg Chappell didn't want to play) and playing his last 8 tests against peak West Indies. 2). Alec Stewart, who suffered from having to keep wicket and getting moved all over the batting order. 3). Imran Khan who averaged 50+ over the last 9 years of his career after a sress fracture restricted his bowling. So what say everyone else? And who knows the obvious answer? (as obviously as Bradman is the GOAT this guy was THE greatest barsman to average sub 40) The best players to average under 40 with the bat are Muralitheran and Warne. If you mean best batsmen to average under 40 then you must specify. |
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Post by Carl LaFong on May 9, 2020 14:11:38 GMT
Botham had a test average of 33.5 (batting, not bowling!)
I knew it was pretty low, but not that low!
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Post by Carl LaFong on May 9, 2020 14:13:17 GMT
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Post by Aj_June on May 9, 2020 15:31:27 GMT
Botham had a test average of 33.5 (batting, not bowling!) I knew it was pretty low, but not that low! But Botham has many memorable innings and was a once upon an era player. Definitely the greatest all-rounder of England. Botham's Ashes is a thing that happens rarely.
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Post by weststigersbob on May 9, 2020 16:44:09 GMT
Botham had a test average of 33.5 (batting, not bowling!) I knew it was pretty low, but not that low! But Botham has many memorable innings and was a once upon an era player. Definitely the greatest all-rounder of England. Botham's Ashes is a thing that happens rarely. Botham was good, but he’s England’s #3 best all rounder. WG is first obviously, and Wilf Rhodes is second. Vastly underrated cricketer, who played his last test 31 years after his first. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Rhodes?wprov=sfti1 |
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Post by Aj_June on May 9, 2020 17:43:22 GMT
But Botham has many memorable innings and was a once upon an era player. Definitely the greatest all-rounder of England. Botham's Ashes is a thing that happens rarely. Botham was good, but he’s England’s #3 best all rounder. WG is first obviously, and Wilf Rhodes is second. Vastly underrated cricketer, who played his last test 31 years after his first. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Rhodes?wprov=sfti1When I say Botham was England's finest I mean only in context of international cricket and specifically Test cricket. Although I was not clear on that. Botham scored a century in every 11.5 innings while Rhodes scored a century once in every 49 innings. Botham took 5 wickets in an innings in every 6 innings he bowled While Rhodes did get a 5-fer once in every 15 innings he bowled. Botham was a very impact player in international Tests and often dragged an otherwise not so great team to victory. Yes, if you count entire cricket career then WG Grace and Rhodes are indeed better than Botham.
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Post by Carl LaFong on May 10, 2020 16:21:46 GMT
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Post by hoskotafe3 on May 15, 2020 18:39:21 GMT
Been watching the Kayo series The Greatest and the episide on Richard Hadlee is quite interesting. While he's obviously a humble man, to hear him.say it wasn't until 1978, 7 years into his international career, that he felt like he could play. He was a Thomson style tearaway before he played county cricket and learned to bowl slower off a shorter run (my knees enforced that at a much lower level but a similar age) and from there the rest is history. 431 test wickets at about 22 a piece.
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Post by Aj_June on May 16, 2020 2:49:35 GMT
Been watching the Kayo series The Greatest and the episide on Richard Hadlee is quite interesting. While he's obviously a humble man, to hear him.say it wasn't until 1978, 7 years into his international career, that he felt like he could play. He was a Thomson style tearaway before he played county cricket and learned to bowl slower off a shorter run (my knees enforced that at a much lower level but a similar age) and from there the rest is history. 431 test wickets at about 22 a piece. Some people allege that Hadlee would not have got so much success if he played for a better team. I personally am not qualified to take part in this debate as I didn't see anything of him in his playing days and there are not many bowling footage of him that I have seen. But playing in good and bad teams have their own pros and cons. While you may get more wickets if you are bowling against better batting attack on a batting surface, you might actually also get less wickets when bowling against good batting side on bowling wickets. Because in the latter case, if you don't have good support you will not be able to exert enough pressure as a team and they will simply see you out and attack the bad bowlers.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on May 16, 2020 3:08:17 GMT
In my experience fast bowlers are better when hunting in packs. And the real proof of his quality is his average amd strike rate. If he'd taken his wickets at 28+ and a strike rate in the 60s yep, he got 'em because someone had to. But he averaged 22 and had a strike rate that compares with anyone else in that category. His home strike rate was 53, away it was 48. And, in his last 69 tests, he claimed 370 wickets at a tick under 21 and a strike rate of 47. If you're taking a wicket every 47 balls at 20, and mostly bowling to top order bats as there's no one else knocking the top order over, you're one of the best who's ever played the game.
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Post by Carl LaFong on May 18, 2020 17:44:23 GMT
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Post by Aj_June on May 18, 2020 17:56:48 GMT
Nothing do with King pairs (as there was none here) but I have a funny story to tell. A west Indian fan of Gavaskar once made a bet with another West Indian fan. Gavaskar's windies fan said that my man will make more runs than both your openers combined. But alas Gavaskar got bowled for just 1. But then a funny thing happened, Dev and Sandhu got Haynes and Greenidge for ducks and the Gavaskar's fan won the bet. Gavaskar was so famous in the Caribbeans that they wrote songs on him. Queen's Park Oval, Port-Of-Spain, Trinidad, 11th March, 1983 howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0950 Match tied.
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Post by Carl LaFong on May 18, 2020 18:02:55 GMT
Nothing do with King pairs (as there was none here) but I have a funny story to tell. A west Indian fan of Gavaskar once made a bet with another West Indian fan. Gavaskar's windies fan said that my man will make more runs than both your openers combined. But alas Gavaskar got bowled for just 1. Nut then a funny thing happened, Dev and Sandhu got Haynes and Greenidge for ducks and the Gavaskar's fan won the bet. Gavaskar was so famous in the Caribbeans that they wrote songs on him. Queen's Park Oval, Port-Of-Spain, Trinidad, 11th March, 1983 howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0950 Match tied.  nice anecdote. There was a cricketer from my home town in Scotland who played one test for England. It was against SA in Joburg and he was out for a duck both innings (faced 6 balls in the first innings and 3 in the second, so not a king pair) and took no wickets from 63 balls bowled. And he never played another test again ... not surprisingly! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Hamilton_(cricketer)
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