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Post by Terrapin Station on Mar 7, 2017 19:48:36 GMT
And I don't understand why you're not answering my question. How would 0=<color patch> ? In other words, how, exactly would that obtain ontologically?I'm not answering your question because it's irrelevant to the point I'm making. Unless you can explain the relevance I don't see the point. I don't even think it's an answerable question as to what a typical human mind think orange means. That would obtain ontologically by programming it into a computer. The very fact that you're seeing that orange color patch right now means that someone somewhere has programmed 0s and 1s to equal orange. You couldn't see it if it hadn't been. Unless you're going to start claiming that empiricism is not evidence for ontological existence. The relevance is whether this question is answerable without bringing subjectivity into it. I'm not doubting that computers can display orange patches. I'm asking you to explain how anything objective amounts to reference/a referent (or how anything objective amounts to something like a 0 being equal to something like an orange patch). I'm challenging that reference is coherent, qua reference, sans subjectivity.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 7, 2017 21:51:21 GMT
First, truth is relative. Second, many theists don't claim to believe without evidence. Third, "no comment needed" can be interpreted as "no refutation possible". You are giving materialist atheists a bad name. Truth is demonstrated. Theists do believe without evidence, and if you disagree, then please let me know what the evidence is. I'm not aware of any.
I'm glad you think I give atheists a bad name. Because, whoever you are.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2017 22:06:21 GMT
Truth is demonstrated. Theists do believe without evidence, and if you disagree, then please let me know what the evidence is. I'm not aware of any. imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/6191/scientist-who-atheist-dmtAnd that's just one conversion story. It even mentions evidence. The quality of the evidence doesn't change the fact that it's evidence for the person who experienced it. Since truth is subjective, who am I to dismiss it?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 7, 2017 22:07:42 GMT
Truth is demonstrated. Theists do believe without evidence, and if you disagree, then please let me know what the evidence is. I'm not aware of any. imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/6191/scientist-who-atheist-dmtAnd that's just one conversion story. It even mentions evidence. The quality of the evidence doesn't change the fact that it's evidence for the person who experienced it. Since truth is subjective, who am I to dismiss it? DMT doesn't demonstrate anything. And if conversion proved anything, then there are far more theists who become atheists.
Is that seriously all you have? A drug? So a person with an altered brain state, hallucinating, proves what?
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2017 22:16:06 GMT
Is that seriously all you have? A drug? So a person with an altered brain state, hallucinating, proves what?
The person experienced the trip as evidence for a deity. So it proves that people use evidence to rationalize theism.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 7, 2017 22:26:06 GMT
The person experienced the trip as evidence for a deity. So it proves that people use evidence to rationalize theism. That isn't evidence. First of all, thoughts aren't evidence that something is true, and hallucinations induced by drugs certainly aren't.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2017 22:34:30 GMT
First of all, thoughts aren't evidence that something is true, and hallucinations induced by drugs certainly aren't. Truth is subjective. Therefore, evidence supporting a subjective truth can be subjective as well.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 7, 2017 22:39:06 GMT
Truth is subjective. Therefore, evidence supporting a subjective truth can be subjective as well. False. Completely false.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2017 22:52:58 GMT
Truth is subjective. Therefore, evidence supporting a subjective truth can be subjective as well. False. Completely false. That's your subjective opinion. Maybe you even have subjective evidence to support it. I'm off to bed. Good night.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 7, 2017 22:57:10 GMT
That's your subjective opinion. Maybe you even have subjective evidence to support it. I'm off to bed. Good night. If evidence is always subjective, then nothing is objective. You're either very ignorant, of being purposefully stupid.
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althea
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Post by althea on Mar 8, 2017 4:38:48 GMT
To help you understand, imagine if a vast portion of the population was running around actively trying to find the oracle so that they could get to Zion. Really imagine that for a moment. And all of their actions were based on trying to accomplish this goal. You would realize pretty quickly out of touch with reality they are.
I'm hung up on it, because I care about people, and I am mostly trying to understand them. If somebody has an idea I've never considered, I enjoy that. If somebody has never considered an idea, I enjoy that too. I've never understood why so many religious people run from the idea of being wrong. Finding our you were wrong is a good thing. It means you are learning and won't continue to be wrong. So I don't know why they are so afraid of it.
By the way, I challenge my own ideas, all the time.
I think the vast majority of people are running around with their heads stuck up their own arses. Their delusional behaviour just tends to have more to do with their faith in political and economic systems - despite evidence that clearly show the opposite of what they're saying to be true - rather than the religious. You seem intent on converting people to your own way of thinking. You seem to feel threatened by the fact they think differently to you, and value different things (like fiction that makes them feel better over truth based on empirical evidence). To me, that's just as bad as trying to convert someone to believe in a god. It's just that where they worship an invisible deity they have no objective evidence for, you're worshipping a secular value system you have no objective evidence for. Beliefs are just that, subjective values are just that -they generally come down to faith in what any given person considers "right" or "best" (both subjective calls that can only be made for oneself). It doesn't matter whether there's a god involved or not.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 8, 2017 5:40:38 GMT
That's your subjective opinion. Maybe you even have subjective evidence to support it. I'm off to bed. Good night. If evidence is always subjective, then nothing is objective. You're either very ignorant, of being purposefully stupid. Maybe I should have clarified: I am speaking from a human standpoint. Evidence is subjective for every human. Facts may be facts; but the observations of them may vary, and also their interpretations. I believe that humans can not grasp the Kantean Noumenon.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 8, 2017 6:21:39 GMT
I think the vast majority of people are running around with their heads stuck up their own arses. Their delusional behaviour just tends to have more to do with their faith in political and economic systems - despite evidence that clearly show the opposite of what they're saying to be true - rather than the religious. You seem intent on converting people to your own way of thinking. You seem to feel threatened by the fact they think differently to you, and value different things (like fiction that makes them feel better over truth based on empirical evidence). To me, that's just as bad as trying to convert someone to believe in a god. It's just that where they worship an invisible deity they have no objective evidence for, you're worshipping a secular value system you have no objective evidence for. Beliefs are just that, subjective values are just that -they generally come down to faith in what any given person considers "right" or "best" (both subjective calls that can only be made for oneself). It doesn't matter whether there's a god involved or not. I seem intent on encouraging people to value evidence you mean, and to reject myth. You seem to feel threatened that anybody would question such things.
Did you have anything valuable to say, because you haven't. I'm not worshiping anything, and haven't said anything about a value system. And beliefs don't have to be based on subjective anything. You're really confused.
I'm honestly done waiting on you to say something that matters, so if you can't, I'm done with you.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 8, 2017 6:23:28 GMT
If evidence is always subjective, then nothing is objective. You're either very ignorant, of being purposefully stupid. Maybe I should have clarified: I am speaking from a human standpoint. Evidence is subjective for every human. Facts may be facts; but the observations of them may vary, and also their interpretations. I believe that humans can not grasp the Kantean Noumenon. No, they can be validated, repeatedly, and used to make predictions. It's called evidence, and there is no such thing for a god. Hence, gods are nonsense concepts.
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althea
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Post by althea on Mar 8, 2017 6:27:55 GMT
I seem intent on encouraging people to value evidence you mean, and to reject myth. You seem to feel threatened that anybody would question such things.
Did you have anything valuable to say, because you haven't. I'm not worshiping anything, and haven't said anything about a value system. And beliefs don't have to be based on subjective anything. You're really confused.
I feel threatened by people trying to impose their own values and way of thinking on other people....whether it concerns religion or any of those other things I mentioned. I value the diversity of beliefs and cultures found in western society. As you have said all along, the faith of others in their own way of thinking is not sufficient evidence to convince anyone else that their beliefs are objectively the best.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 8, 2017 6:38:09 GMT
I feel threatened by people trying to impose their own values and way of thinking on other people....whether it concerns religion or any of those other things I mentioned. I value the diversity of beliefs and cultures found in western society. As you have said all along, the faith of others in their own way of thinking is not sufficient evidence to convince anyone else that their beliefs are objectively the best. What is wrong with questioning ideas? Why are you afraid of that? Why do you think religion deserves special treatment and shouldn't be questioned? It's really weird to hide from inquiry.
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althea
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Post by althea on Mar 8, 2017 7:39:37 GMT
What is wrong with questioning ideas? Why are you afraid of that? Why do you think religion deserves special treatment and shouldn't be questioned? It's really weird to hide from inquiry. There's nothing wrong with questioning ideas...although no one will take you seriously when you refuse to supply the same answers you expect of others. Expecting other people to support their subjective belief systems - be they religious in nature or not - with objective, empirical evidence is just a reflection of your own personal belief system. Why do you think I'm advocating special treatment for religion when I have repeatedly said that this applies to all beliefs and personal values, be they religious or political or otherwise cultural? I agree, it's really weird to hide from inquiry - so why do you keep refusing to justify own belief system with the objective, empirical evidence you expect others to use to justify their own belief systems to you?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 8, 2017 8:01:32 GMT
What is wrong with questioning ideas? Why are you afraid of that? Why do you think religion deserves special treatment and shouldn't be questioned? It's really weird to hide from inquiry. There's nothing wrong with questioning ideas...although no one will take you seriously when you refuse to supply the same answers you expect of others. Expecting other people to support their subjective belief systems - be they religious in nature or not - with objective, empirical evidence is just a reflection of your own personal belief system. Why do you think I'm advocating special treatment for religion when I have repeatedly said that this applies to all beliefs and personal values, be they religious or political or otherwise cultural? I agree, it's really weird to hide from inquiry - so why do you keep refusing to justify own belief system with the objective, empirical evidence you expect others to use to justify their own belief systems to you? I agree. Nothing wrong with question religion. So I guess we're done then? Great.
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althea
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Post by althea on Mar 8, 2017 8:11:09 GMT
There's nothing wrong with questioning ideas...although no one will take you seriously when you refuse to supply the same answers you expect of others. Expecting other people to support their subjective belief systems - be they religious in nature or not - with objective, empirical evidence is just a reflection of your own personal belief system. Why do you think I'm advocating special treatment for religion when I have repeatedly said that this applies to all beliefs and personal values, be they religious or political or otherwise cultural? I agree, it's really weird to hide from inquiry - so why do you keep refusing to justify own belief system with the objective, empirical evidence you expect others to use to justify their own belief systems to you? I agree. Nothing wrong with question religion. So I guess we're done then? Great. In other words...you have no objective evidence to justify your beliefs, just faith. ....or are you willing to supply some empirical evidence to support your faith based claims and attempts to convert people to your belief system?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 8, 2017 14:30:55 GMT
In other words...you have no objective evidence to justify your beliefs, just faith. ....or are you willing to supply some empirical evidence to support your faith based claims and attempts to convert people to your belief system? I hold no faith based positions, so your statement makes no sense. Name one. Go on. I'll wait. One. Go
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