ag25
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Post by ag25 on Apr 6, 2018 0:19:38 GMT
Well, since I just finished Forgiving last night, I figured I'd revist this thread. This is still one of the most intense episodes in Angel's history. I really don't know where to start. Great performances all around. Starting with Fred's shocked crying when she learns Connor disappeared through a portal. It's a powerful way for the writers to really touch on continuity. One moment wonderfully reminds the audience of her character's history. Her fear and concern for Connor is heartbreaking. Linwood's sleaziness is at an all time high. And even Justine gets some moments to shine. One thing I noticed this time around is just how not funny the episode is. Even The Body had moments that were genuinely funny that make me laugh ("Xander decided he blames the wall"), but I didn't laugh once during Forgiving. Not even Sahjan's, "Flitted in a manly way," quip is enough to defuse the tense atmosphere of the episode. Of course there's also Angel's determination. He goes from enraged, to cold, to calculating. Every beat builds on the one before it. When he threatens Linwood with torture, you know it's not a bluff. He'd already warned Lindwood that whatever happens to Connor will be visited on him. We've seen Angel angry, cold, and calculating, but never rolled up all at once like here. DB really does not get enough credit for his intensity in front of the camera. And speaking of not getting enough credit, Gunn should get more recognition for being the level headed one for a change. Despite all evidence pointing towards Wesley's betrayal and even his own uncertainty about Wes's role in Connor's kidnapping, Gunn tries to talk down Angel several times against going after him. Gunn learned back in season 2 just how far Angel will go to get his revenge. And this time, it's for his child. He warns Fred against going after Angel. He knows Angel will burn LA to the ground to get Connor back. And Gunn's fear isn't that he can't take Angel. It's that he knows if he has to, he will kill Angel to save Fred's life. On the other end of the emotional spectrum, Lorne is at his most comforting. There was something so genuine about Andy Hallett's performance as Lorne that really makes everything he says completely sincere. The scene where he discusses forgiving Wesley with Angel appears to get through. It's a strong moment that in any other episode or circumstance would've completely worked. But this episode would not have a fairy tale ending wrapped in a neat little moral. All of which brings us to that final scene. Angel in Wesley's hospital room. Some fifteen years later and I can still remember how I felt watching that. It may be the best swerve in either show's history. Angel comes off as if he's ready to start forgiving Wesley or at least hear him out. But the suddenness of Angel completely turning around shocked me like no other moment. It was, at least to me, the most frightening scene on both shows. It was the most scared I have ever been for a character. I had no doubt, Angel is going to kill Wesley in that hospital bed. And there was absolutely nothing Wesley could do about it. DB plays the moment like a rabid animal. He's screaming, snarling, slobbering. There is no dignity in his rage. There is nothing cool about this scene. It's frightening in its discomfort. And it makes absolute perfect sense. This isn't some mythic hero out for revenge against some sworn enemy. This is an enraged father unleashing all his hate on the man who kidnapped his child. Despite knowing what I know, I can't blame Angel. And I can't blame Wesley either. As I said earlier, big props to Alexis for playing the entire episode silently. He didn't utter a single word. He told every emotion through his eyes. The fear, sadness, and shock. Every emotion is perfectly delivered. Yes, exactly, well said!!!
The episode is so well done, can't praise it enough, and I love that this angry/dark Angel is different than what we have seen before. You are right that David and Alexis don't get enough credit. And, yes, props to Gunn and Lorne.
I can't blame either Angel or Wesley either and it's very sad to me that this is how they end the season (in terms of their relationship). But then it just makes their relationship and dynamic in season 4 that much more powerful. The fact that Wes spent a lot of time trying to find Angel in the ocean when Angel actually tried to kill him was such a beautiful aspect of Wesley's character and then the his slow reintegration with AI was done really well in my opinion. And to then to have Angel's anger at Wesley come back in season 5's Lineage was great. That is one of my favorite season 5 episodes. As much as I say Angel is my favorite male character in the series, Wesley is just right up there too!
This is a great episode and I don't mind how it ends. You are absolutely right, Caleb, in that this might be the most shocking shift/turn in both series. The problem I have is the fall out from it. Like I said, I don't blame Angel at all. But I do blame Gunn, Fred, and Cordelia (not so much Lorne, but a little bit him, too). They should have been more understanding of Wesley's actions and tried to reconcile him and Angel (at some point) or at least still be Wesley's friend/support him. Instead, they just abandon him, like he says in Spin the Bottle, and this is really jarring for me, especially since they all found out the real reason for why Wes did what he did. I get Cordy thinking she needed to be there for Angel (and she's right), but since she knew both of them the best, she should have at least gone to visit Wesley at some point, offer her support and sympathy (and maybe eventually try to reconcile them) while still being there for Angel. Gunn and Fred, and to a lesser extent Lorne, should have done the same thing in my opinion. The scene later on where Fred goes to the hospital and gives Wesley his stuff, and she goes off on him makes me so sad and mad. She doesn't even let him tell his side of the story, and of course she doesn't know, but we the audience know that Wesley is in love with her, so it is even worse for him.
Anyway, the only thing I disagree with is that there are no funny moments. For most people, Caleb, you are right in that this episode is not funny at all and is very serious in tone, action, etc. But every time I see it I can't help but laugh at the scene where Angel is dragging the tied up Linwood up the stairs to be tortured and then drops him. I know it is not meant to be funny and it is very serious, because I do believe Angel would have tortured him, but just the way it was filmed, how it was edited, etc. just combine to make me laugh in an inappropriate way, lol.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 6, 2018 15:17:20 GMT
You're right. I must've forgotten that. Lindwood's reaction is pretty funny: "Lilah!" Practically telling her, "Do something!"
I guess I quickly forgot about it due to Angel's answer to Linwood asking him what more does he want: "I want my son back!" It's so blunt because that's all he wants.
I don't blame any of them (well, one but more on her later). Fred I don't blame because I feel Wesley's betrayal brought back memories of when he attacked her, yet at the same time, I feel she was completely sincere in her fear of Angel finishing what he started with Wesley should he return to the Hyperion. She is the one who considers going back to him once things might've cooled off. So I don't feel she completely abandoned him so much as wanted him to stay away for his own safety.
Gunn I don't blame because he no doubt remembers Wesley's words to him in That Old Gang of Mine: "I can't have any one member of the team compromising the safety of the group, no matter who it is. If you do it again you will be dismissed, bag and baggage, out of a job onto the streets." Wesley then proceeds to put the entire gang in danger by secretly meeting with Holtz and not warning any of them of his impending attack. Gunn took Wesley's words to heart and no doubt feels Wes should the suffer the consequences he once threatened Gunn with.
Lorne I definitely don't blame because he's the one Wes actually attacked and injured. He has every right to feel betrayed.
Cordy, however, she is the one I do feel disappointed in. As you said, she's known both Angel and Wesley better than anyone else. She's fought alongside both of them for years. Much like with Riley, I feel the writers really dropped the ball with her. They were so focused on having her comfort Angel (obviously to build that romantic relationship between them) that they forgot what a close relationship she also had with Wes. I remember being anxious about how she would approach the situation. How conflicted would she be with divided loyalties. Comforting Angel but missing Wesley. Unfortunately, the writers took the easier route and just had her only focus on Angel's feelings.
The only thing I can really say I would understand regarding her actions (and something I wish the writers had thought of) is that she and Wes know what it's like to be betrayed. So she'd be extra hard on him for doing the same thing to her again that Angel had once done. One friend betraying her was hard enough. A second friend doing the same thing was too much for her.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Apr 18, 2018 23:41:24 GMT
You're right. I must've forgotten that. Lindwood's reaction is pretty funny: "Lilah!" Practically telling her, "Do something!" I guess I quickly forgot about it due to Angel's answer to Linwood asking him what more does he want: "I want my son back!" It's so blunt because that's all he wants. I don't blame any of them (well, one but more on her later). Fred I don't blame because I feel Wesley's betrayal brought back memories of when he attacked her, yet at the same time, I feel she was completely sincere in her fear of Angel finishing what he started with Wesley should he return to the Hyperion. She is the one who considers going back to him once things might've cooled off. So I don't feel she completely abandoned him so much as wanted him to stay away for his own safety. Gunn I don't blame because he no doubt remembers Wesley's words to him in That Old Gang of Mine: "I can't have any one member of the team compromising the safety of the group, no matter who it is. If you do it again you will be dismissed, bag and baggage, out of a job onto the streets." Wesley then proceeds to put the entire gang in danger by secretly meeting with Holtz and not warning any of them of his impending attack. Gunn took Wesley's words to heart and no doubt feels Wes should the suffer the consequences he once threatened Gunn with. Lorne I definitely don't blame because he's the one Wes actually attacked and injured. He has every right to feel betrayed. Cordy, however, she is the one I do feel disappointed in. As you said, she's known both Angel and Wesley better than anyone else. She's fought alongside both of them for years. Much like with Riley, I feel the writers really dropped the ball with her. They were so focused on having her comfort Angel (obviously to build that romantic relationship between them) that they forgot what a close relationship she also had with Wes. I remember being anxious about how she would approach the situation. How conflicted would she be with divided loyalties. Comforting Angel but missing Wesley. Unfortunately, the writers took the easier route and just had her only focus on Angel's feelings. The only thing I can really say I would understand regarding her actions (and something I wish the writers had thought of) is that she and Wes know what it's like to be betrayed. So she'd be extra hard on him for doing the same thing to her again that Angel had once done. One friend betraying her was hard enough. A second friend doing the same thing was too much for her. With Fred, I agree with you that she was sincere in that she believed Angel would kill Wesley if he came back. I guess the scene came off to me more that she was telling him "don't come back Wesley, none of us care about you anymore and want nothing more to do with you", rather than your interpretation of her just wanting him to stay away for his safety. She starts off understanding then is almost shouting at Wes by the end of the scene, and then she just walks out. Maybe if she had gone up to him and explained her seriousness of Wesley needing to stay away, maybe asking him if he understood in a softer way where he could nod to her and tell him that she would come and check on him when she could/when things cooled down; this would all have come off better for me. If they had had a couple of moments of her visiting him, then this would have been a really nice set up to Supersymmetry when Fred goes to Wesley for help in dealing with her old professor. Question: where/when does Fred consider going back to Wes once things cool down?
You make a really good point with Gunn. I can't believe I forgot about that line, or didn't realize it was foreshadowing Wesley's betrayal, so I guess I agree with you regarding Gunn.
Yeah, Lorne I don't really blame. I don't know why I said that. He was the one attacked by Wesley and yet he still forgives him and even bugs Cordy about going to see Wes.
I agree with you for the most part with Cordy. I too was looking forward to her torn loyalties between Angel and Wes. I don't mind the writer's building the romantic relationship between Angel and Cordy, but yes, they totally dropped the ball/was a missed opportunity for her character to be torn between them. This could have also been explored in season 5 after You're Welcome between Angel/Wesley and Spike. Spike is the one out there helping the hopeless and there is no way Cordy would have worked for WR&H, so, assuming she still had the visions (and that she would have stayed on the show after You're Welcome) it would have been fascinating to see if Cordy and Spike teamed up, and then slowly have the gang go back over to their side. This would have also tied in nicely with Destiny and the Shanshu Prophecy.
So I guess my beef is more with the girls than with the guys, lol.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 19, 2018 14:17:27 GMT
I can understand that. Maybe if Amy Acker had played the scene a little softer or with a little more sadness and less anger.
I don't know how many times I've watched Angel, but honestly, this was the first time it ever occurred to me that Wesley's warning foreshadows his own actions.
From "The Price"
FRED Yeah. But, thing's have cooled down a little since... I'm just saying maybe it's time to... Look, he doesn't have to forgive Wesley.
GUNN Glad you think so, 'cuz not happenin'.
FRED No. Right. He shouldn't. But... isn't there some way to, I don't know... come back from this?
And then in "A New World," Fred's the one who considers going to Wesley with help closing the dimensional tear that Connor came through.
That would've made a great back half of season 5. And would've made for fantastically hilarious dynamic of Spike and Cordy snickering at each other.
Spike: "I helped save the world!"
Cordy: "Me too!"
Spike: "Yeah, but I died doing it."
Cordy: "That's cause you suck at it."
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Jun 21, 2018 23:20:51 GMT
I can understand that. Maybe if Amy Acker had played the scene a little softer or with a little more sadness and less anger. I don't know how many times I've watched Angel, but honestly, this was the first time it ever occurred to me that Wesley's warning foreshadows his own actions. From "The Price" FRED Yeah. But, thing's have cooled down a little since... I'm just saying maybe it's time to... Look, he doesn't have to forgive Wesley. GUNN Glad you think so, 'cuz not happenin'. FRED No. Right. He shouldn't. But... isn't there some way to, I don't know... come back from this? And then in "A New World," Fred's the one who considers going to Wesley with help closing the dimensional tear that Connor came through. That would've made a great back half of season 5. And would've made for fantastically hilarious dynamic of Spike and Cordy snickering at each other. Spike: "I helped save the world!" Cordy: "Me too!" Spike: "Yeah, but I died doing it." Cordy: "That's cause you suck at it."
Yes, I agree. If Amy had played it differently/softer and less angry then I thin it would have come off better; for me anyway. But your cited Fred dialogue from The Price and A New World does make me feel better about her scene with Wes and her (and the others) attitude towards him later on. Thank you for finding those.
LMAO at your dialogue for Spike and Cordy! That is fanfiction just waiting to happen. I would read a fic that was just Spike and Cordy bickering, lol. I absolutely agree that it would have been an excellent back half of season 5 and, personally, what I think they should have done (it did seem that they were kind of setting something like that up). Even if they had still gone the direction that they did in the last half of season 5 (and it was still canceled), they still could have included all of that, tweaked for Cordy's integration, and ended pretty much where they did. I would have liked it so much better....I think that I could have dealt with everything they did after Your Welcome had they just kept Cordelia around.
Aside from the snickering and if the show had gone in the direction of Spike and Cordy of on their own and the others slowly coming back, I wonder in what order would they come back into the fold? It's hard because there are so many different factors that could drive one member to go back more that another, not to mention plot.
For some reason I think Gunn would be the first one to come back; ironic since he was the first one to join WR&H.
Lorne is also a good candidate for an early "defector" as he likes helping people and is more passive, but I am not sure how attached he was to what he was doing at WR&H.
For Fred and Wesley, it depends on if she still turns into Illyria or not, or at what point she does. If so, would Wes come back to Cordy/PTB as a way to get revenge on WR&H? Would Illyria just follow him?
Finally, the main reason Angel was stuck at WT&H was Conner, But in Origin, the spell is broken, which allows Angel to rebel against the Senior Partners. So, if Angel didn't have to be concerned with Conner anymore, then would he rejoin earlier? Or would he stay and try and trick the Senior Partners and find out who the members of the Circle of the Black Thorne are? It's all so interesting!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 25, 2018 18:45:45 GMT
I'd still would've liked to see the group take down the Circle of the Black Thorn as they did in Not Fade Away. I feel it really gave Angel's series finale a different tone to Buffy's.
Whereas the Scoobies fought a huge war on top and inside the Hellmouth, Angel and his team fought smaller battles across multiple fronts. They were much more like surgical strikes against the big bad.
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