|
Post by taylorfirst1 on Oct 3, 2017 15:45:02 GMT
As for the other discussion in this thread, I tend to lean in favor of the "death of the author" theory. I'd love to hear you expand on that, and like to think I have an open mind. Maybe kick around some "for instances." I do enjoy learning new things. I'm no expert. And of course nothing is 100%. Sometimes the audience sees exactly what the artist intended but other times they don't. In my experience this happens quite often in music. I once heard that Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land is Your Land" as an "angry song" and that it was supposed to be some sort of answer to "God Bless America". Well I never got any of that from the song. It sounds quite positive to me and it seems to have the same basic message as "God Bless America". At least it seems that way to my ears.
|
|
|
Post by Doghouse6 on Oct 3, 2017 16:03:43 GMT
I'd love to hear you expand on that, and like to think I have an open mind. Maybe kick around some "for instances." I do enjoy learning new things. I'm no expert. And of course nothing is 100%. Sometimes the audience sees exactly what the artist intended but other times they don't. In my experience this happens quite often in music. I once heard that Woody Guthrie wrote "This Land is Your Land" as an "angry song" and that it was supposed to be some sort of answer to "God Bless America". Well I never got any of that from the song. It sounds quite positive to me and it seems to have the same basic message as "God Bless America". At least it seems that way to my ears. I'm pleased you mentioned music. It occurred to me when considering Nalkarj's explanation, and represents an area in which aficionados can still argue bitterly for decades. I'd never heard that about "This Land Is Your Land," but I can see it in a way that might resemble those who used to yell a few years ago, "We want our country back." Although in Guthrie's case, I'd imagine the message in that context to be more one of protest against oligarchs and power-brokers, and conveying a more inclusive tone suggesting "We, the people."
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Oct 3, 2017 16:19:52 GMT
Some very good points, taylorfirst1 , and I think there's a lot on which we agree. With that said: if I'm remembering correctly, "death of the author" theory does not make the simple claim that "sometimes the audience sees exactly what the artist intended but other times they don't." That, I think, is quite true: artist and art are never identical, and determining meaning in the creation does not rest exclusively on the shoulders of the creator. But "death of the author," I think, makes a much more radical and specific claim: the intent of the author has no meaning at all, in any case, to the work, and one should never even consider it or seek to learn anything about the author in analyzing the work. That I cannot agree with, if that makes sense. As for "This Land is Your Land" and Guthrie: I don't see it as an angry song either, but I do see it, as Doghouse6 suggested, as a political song with a specific meaning.
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 5, 2017 1:19:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 5, 2017 1:23:00 GMT
Italian Lobby Card ![](https://beladraculalugosi.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/the-wolf-man-italian-lobby-card.jpg?w=549) Who is that as the main image ? Rut ro. Not another mystery quest for Nalkarj
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Oct 5, 2017 1:23:47 GMT
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 5, 2017 1:28:37 GMT
Isn't that just Bela as--er--Bela, the gypsy? whew ... Mystery solved quickly for a change ! BUT why do you suppose HE is featured on the Lobby Card bigger than Wolfy ? My excuse is that I thought his chin didn't look Bela-ish enough. ![](https://theredlist.com/media/database/films/cinema/1940/the-wolf-man/035-the-wolf-man-theredlist.jpg)
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Oct 5, 2017 1:31:55 GMT
BATouttaheckBecause--because--because he's the singer in Sleuth! That's it, mystery solved! Pack up yer bags and go home, fellas, we've an answer at long last. Bela Lugosi came back from the dead, adopted a transatlantic accent, and sang Cole Porter for Sleuth! Dear God, what have I been thinking all this time...? Oops, what, Bat? That's a secret of the IMDb v2.0 Freemason Club that no one is supposed to know... I'm sorry, I'm sorry, no, no! OK, serious. As you know, I'm a very serious person by nature. Ahem.
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 5, 2017 1:47:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Oct 5, 2017 2:33:30 GMT
I heard Curt Siodmak, who wrote the screenplay, say that it was intended as some sort of allegory for the Nazis, although I frankly never understood what he was talking about (something to do with "dehumanization" if I recall, but that's as far as I was able to follow it). One can take it further. Hitler's party emphasized a return to Nature (nudism was encouraged in Nazi Germany--in full color display in Munchhausen 1943) and I believe wolf symbolism was used to great extent. A traditional story frame is a society under attack from an outside threat, or from a sick insider (such as a corrupt aristocrat-think Dracula). This film has elements of both but weaved together in an unusual way. The gypsies bring the werewolf illness but in destroying the threat Talbot becomes infected by it. His father is required to destroy the threat to the society but turns out it is his own future being destroyed--the inheritance of his family name (with no other heirs?). And the old gypsy is the guiding voice. Talbot has to go to the outsider, the opposite of his family stature, for help. There's a balance to it since both she and Talbot Sr have lost their sons. Now contrast it with the Curse of the Werewolf. In that case, the Leon character is something of a victim of a game between God and the Devil and he has the misfortune of being born on the wrong day (he is the product of diseased parents--a beggar who was driven mad by a corrupt aristocrat, and a mute mother peasant girl). He becomes an adopted son, the father figure ultimately kills him so it doesn't have the same negativity as the Talbot case, but he does not turn back to human form (I dont know if this was due to cost cutting or intentional-would love to see the script notes). The lack of a transformation gives it a somewhat more tragic feeling. Arguably you could say the message is that sickness in a society must be removed to bring peace/order. There is a "fascist" aspect to many Hammer films.
|
|
|
Post by telegonus on Oct 5, 2017 9:02:20 GMT
Watched a bit of The Wolf Man last evening on Svengoolie (in a beautifully clean and crisp HD broadcast copy almost as good as the Blu-ray, incidentally). I love all the "Universal Horrors" - grew up on them - but this is the one from which I get the most enjoyment and rewards. A prestigious and sterling cast: Claude Rains, bringing every bit of his considerable authority and commitment to the intelligent and sympathetic but rigid and imperious Sir John Talbot; Ralph Bellamy, all business as Colonel Montford, representing the local constabulary; Warren William, so often colorfully caddish in WB pictures of the '30s, delivering an uncharacteristically low-key and subtle performance as the thoughtful Dr. Lloyd; Maria Ouspenskaya as the enigmatic and now-iconic gypsy, Maleva; Bela Lugosi in a restrained yet intense cameo as Maleva's lycanthropy-inflicted fortune-teller son; the lovely Evelyn Ankers, going from stand-offish to coquettish to desperate as Gwen, a local merchant's daughter; Patrick Knowles as her intuitive fiance Frank, Talbot estate gameskeeper; Lon Chaney Jr. embodying mischievous self-confidence deteriorating into soul-crushing anguish as Larry Talbot, the wayward son returning to the family home and finding his way into tragedy. Along with those are reliable and familiar character players such as Fay Helm as the ill-fated Jenny Williams, Doris Lloyd as her bitter and vengeful mother, J.M. Kerrigan as Gwen's antique-dealer father Conliffe, Forrester Harvey as Montford's skittish assistant Twiddle and Harry Stubbs as Reverand Norman, who is rewarded with one of the sometimes subversive screenplay's most irony-laden lines: "Fighting against superstition is as difficult as fighting against Satan himself." Top-notch production values: elegant and moody cinematography and lighting imparting both emotion and visual opulence that skillfully maximizes even the most economical of sets (such as the fog-shrouded woods in which much of the action takes place); a stirring and atmospheric music score; deft editing and pacing; an overall look of polish that seems impossible on a considerably-under-$200k budget, even in 1941. But beyond all these attributes is the film's deep thematic richness which, for my money, surpasses any of Universal's other classics of the genre. More than anything, it presents a portrait of alienation, both personal and social, that functions on multiple levels. Larry, youngest son of the landed Talbot gentry, has returned to his ancestral home after 18 years in America, a stranger in his own land, with the added burden of patriarchal estrangement to be overcome. But neither that estrangement nor unfamiliarity mitigate the automatic assumptions of class distinction visited upon Larry from both ends of the social spectrum. "He's still Lawrence Talbot," Frank warns Gwen when he senses Larry's attraction to her, about which Gwen accurately summarizes, "And I'm the daughter of Conliffe the antique dealer, is that it?" At the other end of that spectrum is Sir John, full of egalitarian kindness when describing the townsfolk to newly-arrived Larry - "They're good people...they're your people" - but defiantly retreating behind what Dr. Lloyd calls "the prestige of the family name" when Larry tries to explain to his father that he's the murderer they're all hunting for: "You're Lawrence Talbot. This is Talbot Castle. You believe those men can come in here and take you out?" The ultimate thematic expression of this alienation is, of course, Larry's tortured realization that he, having been bitten while trying to save Jenny from what he assumed was, in his words, "a plain, ordinary wolf," has now become a killer animal the townspeople presume to be responsible for both Jenny's death and that of Richardson, the local grave digger (and Larry's first victim). And there is also Bela, the fortune-teller clubbed to death by Larry when he was attacking Jenny in werewolf form. "Strange there were no murders here before Lawrence Talbot arrived," says Jenny's suspicious mother, Mrs. Williams. The film then, in a wordless and beautifully-realized scene, expresses this alienation in its ultimate cinematic form. Larry and Sir John (who had told Larry earlier at home, "Belief in the hereafter is a very healthy counterbalance to all the conflicting doubts Man is plagued with these days") arrive at Sunday church service. As the parishioners take their seats, Larry hangs back at the rear, and only the church organ is heard on the soundtrack as the camera then slowly tracks down the center aisle and the worshipers turn, row by row in their pews, to stare at Larry in mute suspicion and accusation. At the one place in town where he, the outsider, might have hoped to find even temporary acceptance and escape from the judgments of his fellow man, Larry is confronted only by their silent yet damning ostracization, and beats a hasty and desolate retreat. It's a very powerful scene that crystallizes in purely visual yet cinematically economical terms all of the aspects - both worldly and supernatural - of the theme that the film has been weaving together. For those who demand nothing more of it, The Wolf Man delivers solidly on its promises in the way of thrills and atmosphere, but director George Waggner's execution of Curt Siodmak's literate script offers depths readily accessible to any viewers wishing to plumb them. If they're easily overlooked, that's due only to the film's brisk 70-minute running time, which might be my only criticism. But with ingenious thriftiness that never hints at austerity, much is packed into those 70 minutes. Doghouse: A lovely and elegant tribute to and appreciation of this much analyzed and rather "transitional" early Forties Universal horror ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) . I can't say that I share your feelings about the film, as I watched it, too, and for the umpteenth time, and after the early, introductory scenes that "set up" Larry in his ancestral village, his dealings with his father, his date with Gwen, the visit to the Gypsy camp, the attack...it began to pall, and pall big time for me. It felt over-written, with enough wolf and dog references and scenes to open up a kennel. The "werewolf poem", pentragrams and barking dogs abounded. The movie could have used more subtlety and poetry; and it did have some of the latter, precious little of the former. I got to the half-way mark a quit for greener pastures (as in no more television viewing for a few hours). There was far less variety and eccentricity in the supporting cast than had been the case in the Universal horrors of old. Nor was there much (any?) humor. It got grim and then grimmer. Yet it was a handsome film, and it looked pretty A quality to me; and it boasted an A list cast. For all this, it simply fell short for me. Once Larry became a wolf man it became repetitive, with Larry's plight and end dang near telegraphed. That Larry was a reluctant, indeed ambivalent monster, made him feel far less threatening than Uni's earlier creatures of the night. I hope that we can at least agree to disagree on this topic, and be done with it. Your appreciation of the film was nicely thought out and showed great insight on your part. .
|
|
|
Post by Doghouse6 on Oct 5, 2017 13:38:42 GMT
Doghouse: A lovely and elegant tribute to and appreciation of this much analyzed and rather "transitional" early Forties Universal horror ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) . I can't say that I share your feelings about the film, as I watched it, too, and for the umpteenth time, and after the early, introductory scenes that "set up" Larry in his ancestral village, his dealings with his father, his date with Gwen, the visit to the Gypsy camp, the attack...it began to pall, and pall big time for me. It felt over-written, with enough wolf and dog references and scenes to open up a kennel. The "werewolf poem", pentragrams and barking dogs abounded. The movie could have used more subtlety and poetry; and it did have some of the latter, precious little of the former. I got to the half-way mark a quit for greener pastures (as in no more television viewing for a few hours). There was far less variety and eccentricity in the supporting cast than had been the case in the Universal horrors of old. Nor was there much (any?) humor. It got grim and then grimmer. Yet it was a handsome film, and it looked pretty A quality to me; and it boasted an A list cast. For all this, it simply fell short for me. Once Larry became a wolf man it became repetitive, with Larry's plight and end dang near telegraphed. That Larry was a reluctant, indeed ambivalent monster, made him feel far less threatening than Uni's earlier creatures of the night. I hope that we can at least agree to disagree on this topic, and be done with it. Your appreciation of the film was nicely thought out and showed great insight on your part. Hi, tel. Glad you rang in, disagreements and all. Although the film's certainly not without its flaws, I chalk the bulk of them up to the impositions of the running time, giving a truncated feeling here, a hasty one there (that heavy front-loading of the werewolf lore, for example). But as you suggest, no need to hash through it, and I thank you for the kind words and, especially, your views. On a personal note, I've missed being able to visit on movie chat. I've been stuck for a while with an ancient laptop that simply will not connect to some sites, so it's nice to encounter you here. Looking forward to again being able to devour all the examinations, analyses and brainstorms that you, ecarle, Swanstep and the gang must have been up to.
|
|
|
Post by Doghouse6 on Oct 5, 2017 14:42:02 GMT
I heard Curt Siodmak, who wrote the screenplay, say that it was intended as some sort of allegory for the Nazis, although I frankly never understood what he was talking about (something to do with "dehumanization" if I recall, but that's as far as I was able to follow it). One can take it further. Hitler's party emphasized a return to Nature (nudism was encouraged in Nazi Germany--in full color display in Munchhausen 1943) and I believe wolf symbolism was used to great extent. A traditional story frame is a society under attack from an outside threat, or from a sick insider (such as a corrupt aristocrat-think Dracula). This film has elements of both but weaved together in an unusual way. The gypsies bring the werewolf illness but in destroying the threat Talbot becomes infected by it. His father is required to destroy the threat to the society but turns out it is his own future being destroyed--the inheritance of his family name (with no other heirs?). And the old gypsy is the guiding voice. Talbot has to go to the outsider, the opposite of his family stature, for help. There's a balance to it since both she and Talbot Sr have lost their sons. I'm grateful for that very interesting viewpoint. I'd like to fully digest it and consider the film from that framework before commenting any further, but didn't want to leave your intriguing contribution unacknowledged and un-thanked until then.
|
|
|
Post by taylorfirst1 on Oct 5, 2017 15:01:29 GMT
Isn't that just Bela as--er--Bela, the gypsy? whew ... Mystery solved quickly for a change ! BUT why do you suppose HE is featured on the Lobby Card bigger than Wolfy ? My excuse is that I thought his chin didn't look Bela-ish enough. ![](https://theredlist.com/media/database/films/cinema/1940/the-wolf-man/035-the-wolf-man-theredlist.jpg) I can only guess that Bela was popular and well known in Italy as a reason why they put him front and center on the poster.
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Oct 5, 2017 15:11:30 GMT
![](https://s26.postimg.org/9pk6zdift/sad2.gif) with Nalkarj Maybe he recorded it BEFORE Plan 9 because he was clairvoyant and knew that they would need it and it was kept in a secret vault until that time ! Have we EVER heard Bela sing? We might just have the answer, seriously ! Brilliant! He knew Plan 9 was that load of moldy cheese--I mean, wondrous masterpiece we all know it to be today, ahem--so he said, "Hah! I'll trick them, trick them all!" (to be read in a pure Lugosi accent), went to a psychic medium friend from Hungary, looked into the future, drank one of those Harry Potter potions (hey... looked into the future, right?), changed his voice, and started belting out "You Do Something to Me," et al. Then, in '72, his ghost possessed Joe Mankiewicz's mind and forced him to find the recordings in the secret vault, upon which he returned to the set, where Lugosi appeared in all his dead/undead glory and wiped everyone's minds so that no one on planet Earth could remember who sang the songs. Wow.
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 5, 2017 15:48:53 GMT
"Wow "is right. Nalkarj The true Wonder of Wonders is that the strict OP of this thread is not here along with the irate villagers with torches after us for wandering a tad afield. No! Wait ! That would be in the other Universal Horror threads. No irate villagers here. Whew. We might still be safe. Except for that under-rated and forgotten guy over there in the corner eating bugs. Nope... it was just ![](https://s26.postimg.org/jdogb0yhl/nicebat.gif) in the mirror. Mosquitoes .... yum !
Ok then, It's settled. Lugosi IS the Sleuth singer. End of mystery. Bittersweet yay. I shall miss not knowing. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
|
|
|
Post by telegonus on Oct 5, 2017 19:07:59 GMT
Hi, tel. Glad you rang in, disagreements and all. Although the film's certainly not without its flaws, I chalk the bulk of them up to the impositions of the running time, giving a truncated feeling here, a hasty one there (that heavy front-loading of the werewolf lore, for example). But as you suggest, no need to hash through it, and I thank you for the kind words and, especially, your views. On a personal note, I've missed being able to visit on movie chat. I've been stuck for a while with an ancient laptop that simply will not connect to some sites, so it's nice to encounter you here. Looking forward to again being able to devour all the examinations, analyses and brainstorms that you, ecarle, Swanstep and the gang must have been up to. You're welcome, Doghouse, and sorry to hear about the laptop issues. I hope they get resolved somehow. Registry cleaner? I think that The Wolf Man just plain suffers from "the Forties blues" that characterizes most of Universal's horrors of the wartime period. Maybe it was the war. It's like they can't quite ignite and become true classics,--it's not Lon's fault. Son Of Dracula has similar issues, and I like it much more than there werewolf pic. In the previous decade, especially under the Laemmles, their horrors seemed to stand out and apart from most movies of the period, were, at their best, larger than life.
|
|
|
Post by Doghouse6 on Oct 5, 2017 21:02:09 GMT
"Wow "is right. Nalkarj The true Wonder of Wonders is that the strict OP of this thread is not here along with the irate villagers with torches after us for wandering a tad afield. No! Wait ! That would be in the other Universal Horror threads. No irate villagers here. Whew. We might still be safe. Except for that under-rated and forgotten guy over there in the corner eating bugs. Nope... it was just ![](https://s26.postimg.org/jdogb0yhl/nicebat.gif) in the mirror. Mosquitoes .... yum !
Ok then, It's settled. Lugosi IS the Sleuth singer. End of mystery. Bittersweet yay. I shall miss not knowing. You know you're safe here, b less your little, leathery wings: this OP considers all GHs his COTN...WMTM (activate your decoder rings). Which brings us neatly to yours and Nalkarj's point: have you considered the possibility the mystery vocalist was merely a Lugosi wannabe? Keep the Mystery Alive! Or undead, as the coffin case may be.
|
|
|
Post by Doghouse6 on Oct 5, 2017 21:04:55 GMT
![](https://s26.postimg.org/9pk6zdift/sad2.gif) with Nalkarj Maybe he recorded it BEFORE Plan 9 because he was clairvoyant and knew that they would need it and it was kept in a secret vault until that time ! Have we EVER heard Bela sing? We might just have the answer, seriously ! Brilliant! He knew Plan 9 was that load of moldy cheese--I mean, wondrous masterpiece we all know it to be today, ahem--so he said, "Hah! I'll trick them, trick them all!" (to be read in a pure Lugosi accent), went to a psychic medium friend from Hungary, looked into the future, drank one of those Harry Potter potions (hey... looked into the future, right?), changed his voice, and started belting out "You Do Something to Me," et al. Then, in '72, his ghost possessed Joe Mankiewicz's mind and forced him to find the recordings in the secret vault, upon which he returned to the set, where Lugosi appeared in all his dead/undead glory and wiped everyone's minds so that no one on planet Earth could remember who sang the songs. Wow. Ah-ha: the "death of the vocalist" theory.
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 5, 2017 21:18:17 GMT
Doghouse6Nice picture of whats'isname ! Dressed up even more than usual !
Quick question, if he cannot go into the sun, how did he get so ..... Never mind ... probably with lamps or that bottled orange stuff. I forget whether they addressed that pressing issue in the very funny film.
|
|