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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 16:55:20 GMT
I didn’t say he was backing it up; I said he was “trying” to. But I respect someone who actually stands by what they spew by at least trying to present a reasonable argument more than those who just state their opinions and then cut and run when their position is shown to be dependent on falsehoods and therefore unreasonable. You are actually someone I feel sorry for. I always stand by what I say. Give me a time I didn't. Heck you just responded negatively to a time I stood by what I said. I didn’t ask you if you stood by what you said. ALWAYS a standing by what you say is not a positive thing by the way. When you say stupid things that are proved to be wrong, you should retract what you say and concede that you learned something new, or reconsidered your position. ALWAYS standing by what you say, no matter what it is, whether it’s accurate or not makes you a stubborn moron incapable of reasoning. It means you lack humility! In any case, the point I made had nothing to do with standing by what you say, but actually backing up your position with a sound argument. Saying that the bible implies a certain thing, and then refusing to show scripture to support what you claim, that’s persuasively incompetent. Suggesting that because YOU view something a specific way, that anyone else who might view it differently based on their unique experience with it is crazy or comes from a bizarre perspective, well that’s not a compelling argument either because it makes you out to be self centered and close minded. |
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Post by filmfan95 on Oct 20, 2017 17:15:24 GMT
Holy cow, the kinds of things people think up. Haha. I'm amused in many ways by this thread. Anyway, masturbation isn't a sin. There isn't a single passage of scripture that even alludes to it. There are tons of laws condemning all sorts of sexual practices that I had never even heard of until I read those parts, and I would think that if God had a problem with masturbation, he wouldn't have hesitated to inspire Moses to write "Thou shalt not touch thyself." And I'm a Christian too. I appreciate your perspective. Although I just spoke to a friend of mine who is also a Christian (who I’ve been having that debate with), and he insists that anything done that involves spilling the seed without the possibility of procreation is sin. There's nothing in the Scripture that condemns spilling seed for no purpose. Your friend is probably pulling the Onan story out of context. I really don't see how anyone can get that meaning out of that story, bit they do, and it is silly. Onan was clearly punished for refusing to provide an heir for his brother, not for spilling his seed. Plus, if spilling seed were a sin, wet dreams would also be a sin, and I do not believe that sin can be accidental. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 20, 2017 17:35:57 GMT
captainbryceOf course it is when you are either right or your opinion is the equal of someone else's - Both of which has been the case in this thread. I will gladly change my stand when something comes up that is up to the task of changing it. I do it all the time. I don't have the ability to refuse to show scripture. It's a public record and we have had plenty of discussions about sex and the Bible. It is redundant to continue to ask for me to do the work you can do and already have done. My discussion was with a person saying what the Bible said which I was disagreeing with anyway. It's always a faulty argument to lead with the notion of what something doesn't say. The Bible doesn't much about most things, that doesn't mean it doesn't have guidelines in place to address most circumstances. Masturbation is one of them and if you don't believe that, I recommend you read it one day rather than asking me to provide Cliff Note scriptures for you to reject.
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Post by filmfan95 on Oct 20, 2017 17:41:10 GMT
Holy cow, the kinds of things people think up. Haha. I'm amused in many ways by this thread. Anyway, masturbation isn't a sin. There isn't a single passage of scripture that even alludes to it. There are tons of laws condemning all sorts of sexual practices that I had never even heard of until I read those parts, and I would think that if God had a problem with masturbation, he wouldn't have hesitated to inspire Moses to write "Thou shalt not touch thyself." And I'm a Christian too. This isn't really true. There are plenty of verses that allude to it since there are specific reasons that one masturbates and those reasons are tied to a few sins. Very few people are masturbating for clinical purposes. You mean like this one? Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart." There are two words which are translated "woman" in the original Greek, one which refers to women in general, and one that refers to married women. The word translated "woman" in this verse is always used to refer to a married woman, not just any woman in general. I also think that this is obvious because Jesus says looking with lust is "adultery." Adultery can not happen between two people who are not married, so if Jesus had meant any woman in general, he would have said that we had committed fornication, not adultery. Also, the Biblical definition of "lust" or "covet" is "desire with intent." In other words, it means that you have intentions of acting upon your desires. Scripture also mentions good "lusts." I can't recall which verse it is, but it says, "If a man desires the office of a bishop, he desires a good thing." The word translated "desire" in that verse is the same one used to translate "lust" in the above verse. If I were to make a translation of Scripture, I would most likely translate the passage as: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a another man's wife and has the intention of taking her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart." A lot of even the modern translations use archaic terms, and this is one of those points that nobody has seemed to update over the years, in order to use non-archaic terminology. Also, considering how in-depth the sex laws in Exodus go (God could have simply said, "Do not lie with a close relative." But instead, he listed all the people, as if one verse wasn't enough), I find it strange of God had a problem with Masturbation and didn't list it in the laws. It just seems to me that God doesn't have much of a problem with it. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 20, 2017 17:54:00 GMT
I appreciate your perspective. Although I just spoke to a friend of mine who is also a Christian (who I’ve been having that debate with), and he insists that anything done that involves spilling the seed without the possibility of procreation is sin. There's nothing in the Scripture that condemns spilling seed for no purpose. Your friend is probably pulling the Onan story out of context. I really don't see how anyone can get that meaning out of that story, bit they do, and it is silly. Onan was clearly punished for refusing to provide an heir for his brother, not for spilling his seed. Plus, if spilling seed were a sin, wet dreams would also be a sin, and I do not believe that sin can be accidental. If Onan sinned due to seed spillage at all it was due to using the pull out method. Masturbation is not that big of a deal even if we consider it a sin since individual sins are rarely super serious without the reasoning behind them.
I think people focus too much on actions which is rarely the foundation for sin. It's the feeling behind it.
Further, since everyone sins, its silly to focus on particular actions anyway rather than the reason for repeated sins.
Sexual arousal is a biological function and there's nothing wrong with it as long as we master it. However, if someone is constantly whacking off, they may have some problems the Bible does address.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Oct 20, 2017 20:10:53 GMT
Holy cow, the kinds of things people think up. Haha. I'm amused in many ways by this thread. Anyway, masturbation isn't a sin. There isn't a single passage of scripture that even alludes to it. There are tons of laws condemning all sorts of sexual practices that I had never even heard of until I read those parts, and I would think that if God had a problem with masturbation, he wouldn't have hesitated to inspire Moses to write "Thou shalt not touch thyself." And I'm a Christian too. Agreed. In fact, one could argue that because of the hands close proximity to the groin area God has implied through creation that masturbation is natural and to be encouraged. Or, that natural selection favored humans with that hand/groin proximity, and clearly the species hasn't died out because of 'touching themselves'. (And that also leaves a god out of it entirely!) Win/win! Edit: OSV, didn't that phrase, or an observation close to it, appear in Christopher Hitchen's book "god is not great"? |
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 20:59:31 GMT
I appreciate your perspective. Although I just spoke to a friend of mine who is also a Christian (who I’ve been having that debate with), and he insists that anything done that involves spilling the seed without the possibility of procreation is sin. There's nothing in the Scripture that condemns spilling seed for no purpose. Your friend is probably pulling the Onan story out of context. I really don't see how anyone can get that meaning out of that story, bit they do, and it is silly. Onan was clearly punished for refusing to provide an heir for his brother, not for spilling his seed. Plus, if spilling seed were a sin, wet dreams would also be a sin, and I do not believe that sin can be accidental. You're preaching to the choir. No pun intended! |
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Post by filmfan95 on Oct 20, 2017 21:03:33 GMT
Agreed. In fact, one could argue that because of the hands close proximity to the groin area God has implied through creation that masturbation is natural and to be encouraged. Or, that natural selection favored humans with that hand/groin proximity, and clearly the species hasn't died out because of 'touching themselves'. (And that also leaves a god out of it entirely!) Win/win! Edit: OSV, didn't that phrase, or an observation close to it, appear in Christopher Hitchen's book "god is not great"? But the way you explain natural selection favoring that way, seems to indicate that natural selection has conscious thought, which would make natural selection a god. The theory of natural selection doesn't have natural selection have a conscious thought. It is mostly utilized by atheists. |
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Post by kls on Oct 20, 2017 21:08:56 GMT
I don't see masturbation as an issue at all unless it is coming between a couple (one rejects the other and turns to masturbation to please him or herself rather than please each other.)
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 21:08:57 GMT
captainbryce Of course it is when...  I will gladly change my stand when something comes up that is up to the task of changing it. I do it all the time. You can waste your time trying to convince someone else of this. You are not a reasonable person (your last statement just proved that) so there is no reason to believe that your mind is "changeable" in any debate that where you've taken a stand. It is redundant to continue to ask for me to do the work you can do and already have done. I'm not asking you to do any work. I'm telling you why you remain unconvincing and why your argument is pathetic. I'm not compelled to help you "fix" that. It's always a faulty argument to lead with the notion of what something doesn't say. I agree. Unfortunately your position IGNORES this fact. Its a position based on what the bible does NOT say. The Bible doesn't much about most things, that doesn't mean it doesn't have guidelines in place to address most circumstances. Masturbation is one of them and if you don't believe that, I recommend you read it one day rather than asking me to provide Cliff Note scriptures for you to reject. I've already read the bible and there is no doubt in my mind that I know scripture better than you do. But if you're not willing to cite specific passages that support your argument, then the simplest explanation is that THERE ARE NONE. But I already know that because I've read it. |
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 21:15:32 GMT
Sexual arousal is a biological function and there's nothing wrong with it as long as we master it. And it is arguable that "masturbation" is in fact one way to master sexual arousal. However, if someone is constantly whacking off, KING of goalpost moving right here. Define "constantly" with respect to this topic? The question is whether or not masturbation is sinful, not whether "constant masturbation" is sinful.  they may have some problems the Bible does address. Then again THEY MAY NOT. What part about that do you not understand? |
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Post by filmfan95 on Oct 20, 2017 21:18:25 GMT
Sexual arousal is a biological function and there's nothing wrong with it as long as we master it. And it is arguable that "masturbation" is in fact one way to master sexual arousal. However, if someone is constantly whacking off, KING of goalpost moving right here. Define "constantly" with respect to this topic? The question is whether or not masturbation is sinful, not whether "constant masturbation" is sinful. they may have some problems the Bible does address. Then again THEY MAY NOT. What part about that do you not understand? I think the point is that something should never become an addiction, because addiction pulls us away from our relationship with God. But that is irrelevant to the discussion, because we are not talking about addiction, we are talking about masturbation. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 20, 2017 21:39:38 GMT
This isn't really true. There are plenty of verses that allude to it since there are specific reasons that one masturbates and those reasons are tied to a few sins. Very few people are masturbating for clinical purposes. You mean like this one? Matthew 5:27-28 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart." There are two words which are translated "woman" in the original Greek, one which refers to women in general, and one that refers to married women. The word translated "woman" in this verse is always used to refer to a married woman, not just any woman in general. I also think that this is obvious because Jesus says looking with lust is "adultery." Adultery can not happen between two people who are not married, so if Jesus had meant any woman in general, he would have said that we had committed fornication, not adultery. Also, the Biblical definition of "lust" or "covet" is "desire with intent." In other words, it means that you have intentions of acting upon your desires. Scripture also mentions good "lusts." I can't recall which verse it is, but it says, "If a man desires the office of a bishop, he desires a good thing." The word translated "desire" in that verse is the same one used to translate "lust" in the above verse. If I were to make a translation of Scripture, I would most likely translate the passage as: "But I say to you that whoever looks at a another man's wife and has the intention of taking her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart." A lot of even the modern translations use archaic terms, and this is one of those points that nobody has seemed to update over the years, in order to use non-archaic terminology. Also, considering how in-depth the sex laws in Exodus go (God could have simply said, "Do not lie with a close relative." But instead, he listed all the people, as if one verse wasn't enough), I find it strange of God had a problem with Masturbation and didn't list it in the laws. It just seems to me that God doesn't have much of a problem with it. I'm not really sure why that would matter. Are you saying that it is perfectly acceptable for a married man to lust after a single woman?The word used actually is the generic form of woman meaning it can stand for anything so it's important to look at context and it's not always the case. It's the equivalent of "Ms." The scripture is 1 Timothy 3:1, but it is not the same word. The more accurate way to look at that verse is aspire. There's two ways to look at the desire with intent issue. Either there is no intent with lust/desire since it would be silly to suggest horniness requires action or there is intent and it just isn;t connected to the sex act but rather masturbation. in any event, I'm not sure there is any way to see a condoning for the practice even if the practice occasionally happens. Also, considering how in-depth the sex laws in Exodus go (God could have simply said, "Do not lie with a close relative." But instead, he listed all the people, as if one verse wasn't enough), I find it strange of God had a problem with Masturbation and didn't list it in the laws. It just seems to me that God doesn't have much of a problem with it.I'm not really sure if the Bible would categorize masturbation as sex in the first place. It is not the first thing I think of. However, Leviticus has numerous instances of semen emissions being unclean even during sex (Something that is unclean is not necessarily a sin since sex between marriage mates is not a sin). Further, in the NT which pertains to Christians, there are distinctions between uncleanness, fornication, & brazen conduct although they are often linked to the same problem - desire, selfishness, & a lack of self-control. Basically a chronic jacker offer lacks self-control just like the ones who boink outside of marriage. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 20, 2017 21:41:49 GMT
captainbryce Of course it is when... You can waste your time trying to convince someone else of this. You are not a reasonable person (your last statement just proved that) so there is no reason to believe that your mind is "changeable" in any debate that where you've taken a stand. I'm not asking you to do any work. I'm telling you why you remain unconvincing and why your argument is pathetic. I'm not compelled to help you "fix" that. I agree. Unfortunately your position IGNORES this fact. Its a position based on what the bible does NOT say. I've already read the bible and there is no doubt in my mind that I know scripture better than you do. But if you're not willing to cite specific passages that support your argument, then the simplest explanation is that THERE ARE NONE. But I already know that because I've read it. OK Foreskin Whisperer... The only reason you don't think I'm reasonable is because I don;t agree with you and then double down on that when you clearly are talking like a crazy person. |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Oct 20, 2017 21:46:45 GMT
Or, that natural selection favored humans with that hand/groin proximity, and clearly the species hasn't died out because of 'touching themselves'. (And that also leaves a god out of it entirely!) Win/win! Edit: OSV, didn't that phrase, or an observation close to it, appear in Christopher Hitchen's book "god is not great"? But the way you explain natural selection favoring that way, seems to indicate that natural selection has conscious thought, which would make natural selection a god. The theory of natural selection doesn't have natural selection have a conscious thought. It is mostly utilized by atheists. Edit; rc1953 I am an atheist, hence the phrase 'And that also leaves a god out of it entirely' |
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 21:58:16 GMT
And it is arguable that "masturbation" is in fact one way to master sexual arousal. KING of goalpost moving right here. Define "constantly" with respect to this topic? The question is whether or not masturbation is sinful, not whether "constant masturbation" is sinful. Then again THEY MAY NOT. What part about that do you not understand? I think the point is that something should never become an addiction, because addiction pulls us away from our relationship with God. But that is irrelevant to the discussion, because we are not talking about addiction, we are talking about masturbation. Exactly. He CHANGED the point when it was convenient for him to do so (as usual). |
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 22:02:13 GMT
The only reason you don't think I'm reasonable is because I don;t agree with you and then double down on that when you clearly are talking like a crazy person. Uh no mister projectionist. The reason I think you are not reasonable is because you are incapable of reasoning. If you think that it is ALWAYS a good idea to stand by what you say (in any circumstance), then you are by definition UNREASONABLE. I give less than a shit whether you "agree" with me or not. The fact is, you double down on things that you are unable/unwilling to support. The fact that you have to go to ad hominem in every discussion is what also proves you to be unreasonable. Whenever someone disagrees with YOU, then you label them "crazy", because that's evidently the only thing you can resort to. That's not reasonable, that's desperate! |
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Post by filmfan95 on Oct 20, 2017 22:16:48 GMT
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 20, 2017 22:58:27 GMT
That's not the same thing as translating the word. The reason you see it so often is because women are often being discussed who are married or a wife. That doesn't change the fact that it's generic. It also is used in times that there is no marital distinction such as with widows or the woman who had a bleeding problem or in the case described in Matthew 5:28. Regarding desire, it's not the same even by your link since context is key (It explicitly details that) and the link is showing different words with similar meanings rather than exact ones. There is no good thing that can be lusted after. While desire can be a healthy trait, lust rarely if ever is described that way. In short, lust is desire but desire in no way needs to be lust. They are not interchangeable. |
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 20, 2017 23:13:55 GMT
That's not the same thing as translating the word. The reason you see it so often is because women are often being discussed who are married or a wife. That doesn't change the fact that it's generic. That’s not a “fact”, it’s someth you just made up. Unless of course you can provide a passage where it is clearly NOT referring to a married woman. Can a man lust after his willing wife; yes or no? |
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