|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 9, 2017 16:53:11 GMT
So this means, women who are harassed against their wishes just have to put up and shut up, and expect it? That it is ok, the guy can't help himself? Men are going to behave that way when they're interacting with women no matter how socially taboo we make it, including making it illegal. People regularly do socially taboo and illegal things. And this is something that men are driven to do as much as any drug addict is driven to acquire and imbibe their drug of choice. So women would more easily avoid situations they do not want to be in by assuming that any arbitrary man probably wants to have sex with them, and probably will hit on them (that's most men), possibly will try to touch/grope/etc. them (thats fewer, but you're not going to be able to predict which ones), and so on, in certain situations (such as being alone with the man in question). Uh... no. There's such a thing as self-control. I don't treat women that way, and there's tons I'd love to sleep with. You keep that shit to yourself and mind your manners. Period. |
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Dec 10, 2017 8:30:28 GMT
Men are going to behave that way when they're interacting with women no matter how socially taboo we make it, including making it illegal. People regularly do socially taboo and illegal things. And this is something that men are driven to do as much as any drug addict is driven to acquire and imbibe their drug of choice. So women would more easily avoid situations they do not want to be in by assuming that any arbitrary man probably wants to have sex with them, and probably will hit on them (that's most men), possibly will try to touch/grope/etc. them (thats fewer, but you're not going to be able to predict which ones), and so on, in certain situations (such as being alone with the man in question). Uh... no. There's such a thing as self-control. I don't treat women that way, and there's tons I'd love to sleep with. You keep that shit to yourself and mind your manners. Period. So your argument would be that if we make it taboo or illegal enough, no men will act that way? Do you think that we simply haven't made murder taboo or illegal enough? |
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Dec 10, 2017 9:03:59 GMT
I think its important to make something clear... I DONT feel sorry for Weinstein. He abused his power and he deserves what he's getting. What I am trying to express is surprise at how quickly people that expressed adoration for him threw him under the bus when the tides changed. To be perfectly clear I do believe the people coming out against him and I do believe that people who have gone through such experiences should come out and should be taken seriously. I just wish that more than rumor and accusation was part of the equation too. In many of these cases there's nothing more than an accusation and an entire life is destroyed. While the one side needs to be seriously taken into consideration, so does the other angle too. What if a person is accused is actually innocent? In this climate the accused has NO recourse. And that's not fair either. Who's life is destroyed though and by what measure or means? Just because someone claims they were abused or harassed, doesn't mean they are internally destroyed. I don't disbelieve the claims either, but grown up intelligent women with their own agenda and tools— which is sex, regarding men—knew what they wanted and what they were doing at the time. We live in a society that makes assumptions, presumptions about how others are feeling, or project our own insecurities onto them to make them think they "should" be feeling a certain way. Isn't that self-absorbed? People will deal with their own pain in their own way and they also have their own agendas. In Hollywood, which is an actor's playground and full of narcissism and ego, mightn't it just be possible that some of these so-called destroyed feelings are make-believe also? |
|
|
|
Post by MiketheMechanic on Dec 10, 2017 14:35:19 GMT
I think its important to make something clear... I DONT feel sorry for Weinstein. He abused his power and he deserves what he's getting. What I am trying to express is surprise at how quickly people that expressed adoration for him threw him under the bus when the tides changed. To be perfectly clear I do believe the people coming out against him and I do believe that people who have gone through such experiences should come out and should be taken seriously. I just wish that more than rumor and accusation was part of the equation too. In many of these cases there's nothing more than an accusation and an entire life is destroyed. While the one side needs to be seriously taken into consideration, so does the other angle too. What if a person is accused is actually innocent? In this climate the accused has NO recourse. And that's not fair either. Who's life is destroyed though and by what measure or means? Just because someone claims they were abused or harassed, doesn't mean they are internally destroyed. I don't disbelieve the claims either, but grown up intelligent women with their own agenda and tools— which is sex, regarding men—knew what they wanted and what they were doing at the time. We live in a society that makes assumptions, presumptions about how others are feeling, or project our own insecurities onto them to make them think they "should" be feeling a certain way. Isn't that self-absorbed? People will deal with their own pain in their own way and they also have their own agendas. In Hollywood, which is an actor's playground and full of narcissism and ego, mightn't it just be possible that some of these so-called destroyed feelings are make-believe also? I don't think that every single person who has made allegations has been destroyed to the point that they can no longer function on a daily basis. However, as everyone is different and internalizes each situation differently, each person that has made allegations had to go through some emotional turmoil. It couldn't have been easy to be kept quiet, especially, in some cases, for an extended period of time. |
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 15:57:13 GMT
Uh... no. There's such a thing as self-control. I don't treat women that way, and there's tons I'd love to sleep with. You keep that shit to yourself and mind your manners. Period. So your argument would be that if we make it taboo or illegal enough, no men will act that way? Do you think that we simply haven't made murder taboo or illegal enough? LESS men will act that way; far less. AND they will know that there are very REAL consequences to those actions. Also, victims will feel more empowered to speak up sooner and with more conviction if they know they have allies, both female AND male.
Murder would be far more rampant if it weren't for the rule of law.
|
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 16:00:33 GMT
I think its important to make something clear... I DONT feel sorry for Weinstein. He abused his power and he deserves what he's getting. What I am trying to express is surprise at how quickly people that expressed adoration for him threw him under the bus when the tides changed. To be perfectly clear I do believe the people coming out against him and I do believe that people who have gone through such experiences should come out and should be taken seriously. I just wish that more than rumor and accusation was part of the equation too. In many of these cases there's nothing more than an accusation and an entire life is destroyed. While the one side needs to be seriously taken into consideration, so does the other angle too. What if a person is accused is actually innocent? In this climate the accused has NO recourse. And that's not fair either. Who's life is destroyed though and by what measure or means? Just because someone claims they were abused or harassed, doesn't mean they are internally destroyed. I don't disbelieve the claims either, but grown up intelligent women with their own agenda and tools— which is sex, regarding men—knew what they wanted and what they were doing at the time. We live in a society that makes assumptions, presumptions about how others are feeling, or project our own insecurities onto them to make them think they "should" be feeling a certain way. Isn't that self-absorbed? People will deal with their own pain in their own way and they also have their own agendas. In Hollywood, which is an actor's playground and full of narcissism and ego, mightn't it just be possible that some of these so-called destroyed feelings are make-believe also? What I meant in the passage you underlined was the men who have been accused. I would hate to be accused of something like that and have it destroy my career and reputation if I were innocent. In the current climate I would have little to no recourse.
Its a more complex issue than how we're dealing with it at this point in time. I think this is going play out in a more complicated way than we've seen so far. It might even go to court.
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Dec 11, 2017 16:45:43 GMT
So your argument would be that if we make it taboo or illegal enough, no men will act that way? Do you think that we simply haven't made murder taboo or illegal enough? LESS men will act that way; far less. AND they will know that there are very REAL consequences to those actions. Also, victims will feel more empowered to speak up sooner and with more conviction if they know they have allies, both female AND male.
Murder would be far more rampant if it weren't for the rule of law.
Was this a quantitative statement--"Men are going to behave that way when they're interacting with women no matter how socially taboo we make it, including making it illegal"? |
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 19:22:45 GMT
LESS men will act that way; far less. AND they will know that there are very REAL consequences to those actions. Also, victims will feel more empowered to speak up sooner and with more conviction if they know they have allies, both female AND male.
Murder would be far more rampant if it weren't for the rule of law.
Was this a quantitative statement--"Men are going to behave that way when they're interacting with women no matter how socially taboo we make it, including making it illegal"? I'm sorry, you're quoting yourself to what end? My point is that as men we have to take more responsibility for our inter-actions with women. Women do to, but in a different way. We're both part of the equation. Respecting "people" is the ultimate goal. If I respect you I wont sexually harass you, and if you respect me you wont accuse of me of doing something I didn't do (Unless you're crazy or an asshole, but that's another story). |
|
|
|
Post by Toasted Cheese on Dec 12, 2017 0:19:58 GMT
Who's life is destroyed though and by what measure or means? Just because someone claims they were abused or harassed, doesn't mean they are internally destroyed. I don't disbelieve the claims either, but grown up intelligent women with their own agenda and tools— which is sex, regarding men—knew what they wanted and what they were doing at the time. We live in a society that makes assumptions, presumptions about how others are feeling, or project our own insecurities onto them to make them think they "should" be feeling a certain way. Isn't that self-absorbed? People will deal with their own pain in their own way and they also have their own agendas. In Hollywood, which is an actor's playground and full of narcissism and ego, mightn't it just be possible that some of these so-called destroyed feelings are make-believe also? What I meant in the passage you underlined was the men who have been accused. I would hate to be accused of something like that and have it destroy my career and reputation if I were innocent. In the current climate I would have little to no recourse.
Its a more complex issue than how we're dealing with it at this point in time. I think this is going play out in a more complicated way than we've seen so far. It might even go to court.
Doh! Misinterpreted by reading too fast. I get your point about the claims being made and the impact they have on the accused, be they false or legitimate. That is why all this trail by media s<>t has got to cease. I started a thread not so long ago about should the media be releasing names for people accused of crimes, before they are even convicted. link In these cases though, due to the celebrity status, people know of these people through entertainment media and then their arena gets pelted with rocks and stones and the accused is standing defenseless and vulnerable without fair due process. I guess humans still have a long way to go, and many of these people would likely claim to be god fearing people or good Christians. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 2:59:53 GMT
May have already been said, and I'm pulling the metaview card here, but this all smacks of a growing rift between the sexes. I once heard that failing marriages and low birthrates are telltale sign of a decline of a civilization.
|
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Dec 12, 2017 6:08:25 GMT
Was this a quantitative statement--"Men are going to behave that way when they're interacting with women no matter how socially taboo we make it, including making it illegal"? I'm sorry, you're quoting yourself to what end? Is English not your first language, and are you not familiar with questions? |
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 12, 2017 17:25:28 GMT
I'm sorry, you're quoting yourself to what end? Is English not your first language, and are you not familiar with questions? Its not the language or the questions that I'm misunderstanding. Its your logic. |
|
|
|
Post by Terrapin Station on Dec 15, 2017 15:36:09 GMT
Is English not your first language, and are you not familiar with questions? Its not the language or the questions that I'm misunderstanding. Its your logic. Why weren't you simply answering the question I asked? |
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 15, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
Its not the language or the questions that I'm misunderstanding. Its your logic. Why weren't you simply answering the question I asked? And the misunderstanding of your logic continues. I'm starting to think you have none. Go away now... |
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 15, 2017 16:34:49 GMT
question:
So in this current climate of people in the entertainment industry (mostly) coming out against sexual harassment offenders, why hasnt anyone brought up Roman Polanski again, whom has had very public accusations made about him all these years? And Woody Allen? Why do some people get shafted but others no? Polanski has never been brought to justice or made any apology.
|
|
|
|
Post by General Kenobi on Dec 15, 2017 19:12:44 GMT
I have wondered the same thing lenlenlen1. Why are Polanski and Allen getting a free pass? Anyone with a shred of decency should not work either of them and they should be face justice for what they did. Especially Polanski who cowardly fled the country instead of facing the consequences for his sickening crimes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nora on Dec 16, 2017 15:25:52 GMT
question: So in this current climate of people in the entertainment industry (mostly) coming out against sexual harassment offenders, why hasnt anyone brought up Roman Polanski again, whom has had very public accusations made about him all these years? And Woody Allen? Why do some people get shafted but others no? Polanski has never been brought to justice or made any apology. but they have. A lot. Dylan Farrow wrote a piece just a few days ago and is heavily lobbying against Allen (who most likely did NOT do what he was accused of, this one is a really sad story) on twitter etc. Similarly with Polanski they have brought it up recently in NYT I think. Plus someone else has recently brought another allegation against him. But the Polanski story is completely different than Allen and its not right to put these two in the same category. Polanski IS a criminal (certainly in one jurisdiction at least), who has been charged, pleaded guilty and was convicted and is fleeing justice. You simply cannot compare him to Woody Allen who has had one allegation that was dismissed by forensic experts, who had no believable motivation or motiv to do what he allegedly do AT THAT TIME (even if he was a pedophile which I dont believe it wouldnt make sense) and Dylan has appeared to be heavily coached by Mia (this was confirmed not only by experts but by Mias other children later). This story is very sad in the way that it is destroying multiple lives and bringing it up in this case is not right. "Polanski has never been brought to justice or made any apology." and this is simply not true. |
|
|
|
Post by Nora on Dec 16, 2017 15:32:39 GMT
I have wondered the same thing lenlenlen1. Why are Polanski and Allen getting a free pass? Anyone with a shred of decency should not work either of them and they should be face justice for what they did. Especially Polanski who cowardly fled the country instead of facing the consequences for his sickening crimes. this is a serious question: so… people should only work with certain people who are deemed "ok/harmless" … which effectively means art should be made only by people who have a clean criminal record? Or what? How would it be evaluated? What if they do have a clean criminal record but allegedly have done something bad (not necessarily a crime perhaps) should they be first evaluated by some committee that would examine their moral fortitude and decide if we, the society, should be exposed to their creations or not? HOW EXACTLY WOULD THIS WORK? Would it be only people who allegedly have done something bad related to children? Or sex overall that would be in this group that would have to be certified "worthy" first? Or would it be other crimes and misdemeanors too that would keep people from being able to create art? Shoplifting? Yes/no? Assault? Yes/no? Larceny? Rape? Attempted rape? Yes/no? Taking a picture next to a confederate flag? Yes/no? Spitting in public? I am intentionally mixing things of different seriousness, I just want to know how would you regulate this. Because you are surely talking about REGULATION, right? You cant leave this up to "peoples feelings", about someone, no? Because effectively you are talking about indirect censorship. If we found out that Leonardo Da Vinci or Michelangelo were creeps, would we admire Mona Lisa and Sixteenth Chapel less? Or stopped people from going to see it? If we did, would it be the right thing to do? Where does this end? I actually think this is a good discussion to have. So I hope you answer and let me know how you see it. |
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 17, 2017 23:59:11 GMT
And this is simply not true. So when did Polanski serve jail time for what he did? And where is the apology? I must have missed those. Do you have links? |
|
|
|
Post by Nora on Dec 18, 2017 7:33:16 GMT
And this is simply not true. So when did Polanski serve jail time for what he did? And where is the apology? I must have missed those. Do you have links? sure. here you go. bfy.tw/Fcfb |
|
