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Post by Skaathar on Nov 26, 2017 17:43:51 GMT
They're not all alike, it's just that they mostly seem to play things too safe and it's all pretty straightforward. X-men has had its up and downs but X-men Days of Future Past was a pretty clever idea for a movie which then soft rebooted the whole thing. Deadpool is a R rated self aware violent comedy movie. Logan was completely different from any previous X-men movie. New Mutants looks like it's going to be some kind of horror movie. It'd be nice if Marvel mixed things up a bit. Iron Man, Ant-man and Doctor Strange somehow all feel kinda like the same plot. Safe? IM1, Thor1, Avengers, Antman, GotG and CW are some of the riskiest superhero movies ever made.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 27, 2017 3:24:34 GMT
They're not all alike, it's just that they mostly seem to play things too safe and it's all pretty straightforward. The entire MCU is a huge risk and has been from the beginning. Casting RDJ as your lead actor in a brand new shared universe idea (which meant he needed to be around for a while) with a B list character like Iron Man. Oh...and how about that shared universe idea that no one else was doing? And that's just the first movie! Since then they made B list character after B list character into A list characters by taking one risk after another. Thor? Capt America? Ant-Man? Dr Strange? Freaking...Guardians of the Galaxy? That's one "who?" after another there. Well it's possible that people had at least heard of Cap...but notice how no one ever considered making a serious big budget movie about him before. And how about this idea? "Let's make a Thor movie that pretty much reinvents the character while embracing humor with an indie director getting full creative control? There is an old saying that is an apt description: "Nothing ventured, nothing gained". You don't become successful by "playing it safe". Great risk is required to do what Marvel has done. There is a reason why no one tried it before Marvel.....it's certainly not "playing it safe". Hollywood is famous for that.....so why didn't they do it before if it's so "safe"?
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Post by scabab on Nov 27, 2017 13:05:15 GMT
harpospokeMost of what you said wasn't exactly new. There were plenty of superhero movies that were made prior to Iron Man that weren't A list heroes. They made an R rated trilogy out of Blade. They made movies for The Punisher, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Elektra, Catwoman and Hellboy. All of them aside from possibly Catwoman weren't as well known as Iron Man, Captain America or Thor. The shared universe was a big idea but it had been done before to a lesser extent with Alien vs Predator and Freddy vs Jason and they did well. Still what I mean is that most of these movies are similar in tone and formula. They're all similar to The Avengers, they're all light hearted, they have all have plenty of jokes, they are all big budget movies, they're all PG-13, they all lead up to a certain movie so they can be predictable. Unlike what they've done with X-men, there's no violent R rated movie, there's no horror movie, none of the major characters are ever killed off because we all know they're going to be in Infinity War, the bad guy never wins, there's no real significant plot twists etc.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 13:13:34 GMT
harpospoke Most of what you said wasn't exactly new. There were plenty of superhero movies that were made prior to Iron Man that weren't A list heroes. They made an R rated trilogy out of Blade. They made movies for The Punisher, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Elektra, Catwoman and Hellboy. Did any of them succeed to the level Iron Man did? That was the X-Men people co-opting an independent film into their universe, not something they planned. New Mutants? That isn't going to work out. The bad guys never won in X-Men, while in the MCU we got one who did (Zemo). And no major characters die in X-Men, closest was Logan but they wimped out and made that some AU future world instead of the present day.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 14:27:22 GMT
The bad guys never won in X-Men, while in the MCU we got one who did (Zemo). And no major characters die in X-Men, closest was Logan but they wimped out and made that some AU future world instead of the present day. More bulls$%# being spewed. Both Magneto and Shaw in First Class won. Shaw because he got the humans to fire the nukes which is what his plan was all along. Shaw also successfully moulded Eric into becoming a less sadistic version of himself and joining his brotherhood cause. That also at the failure of Charles' reasoning and plea not to kill Shaw because it wouldnt be a long term solution and hel end up just like him. And Zemo didnt win jack. Steve and Tony clearly were fine at the end. Tony should have been mad that the dispute between Cap on the accords left his best friend paralysed (which was a copout because they didn't have the balls to kill him and make the story actually have stakes). Not to mention Stark finding out Cap hid the truth of his parents death. But what kind of tone does Civil War conclude with? Laughing from Rhodey, Stark acting sombre, a Tony Stank joke and a general upbeat feeling. They watered down the CW story which is what Disney are best at doing. And Xmen characters die, period. Cylops, Jean, Logan, Xavier.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 14:28:43 GMT
Big time.
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Post by politicidal on Nov 27, 2017 15:13:21 GMT
To a point.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 15:47:20 GMT
= More bulls$%# being spewed. Both Magneto and Shaw in First Class won. Was the world destroyed in Nuclear War? No? Then he didn't win. Are the Avengers fractured? Yes? Then he won. If they killed anyone on either side, we'd have automatically sided with the people who lost someone. As it is, we're left not being sure who was wholly right or wrong. Killing characters like that is bad writing. Steve not being an irresponsible oaf and making it clear he'll fight the good fight if need be, and Tony not being some lunatic devoting every resource he has to hunting down and murdering Steve and Bucky. Mature adults. Jean and Cyclops don't count due to the DOFP reset, and Logan and Xavier don't count because it was some future AU and not in the present day movie continuity.
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Post by scabab on Nov 27, 2017 15:52:56 GMT
Did any of them succeed to the level Iron Man did? No but that's besides the point. They'd have made plenty of superhero movies, most successful enough, with characters even less well known than Iron Man. So making Iron Man or Captain America was never a risk. Again it doesn't matter because it still exists. There was also Logan this year, another violent R rated movie that acted as a follow up to a PG-13 movie which is very rare. The MCU still hasn't made a R rated movie. Still doesn't matter because successful or not they are still making it. It's different and it's not playing safe when they could have. They killed off Cyclops, Professor X and Jean Grey in X-men 3. Professor X did come back later on, the others in an alternate timeline but they still did actually die. Same with how they killed off all the major X-men in Days of Future Past though only briefly. Then they were all dead by Logan and of course then Professor X died for real and then also Wolverine died. They don't kill off any major characters in the MCU, 17 movies and the only real hero they killed was Quicksilver who wasn't really even a main one. Of course they won't kill them off because we've known well in advance they're going to appear in Infinity War. They could have killed off War Machine in Civil War. Ultron could have killed Hawkeye instead of Quicksilver but they never would.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 16:11:11 GMT
Was the world destroyed in Nuclear War? No? Then he didn't win. No nuclear war. But the intention for Shaw to cause the cuban missile crisis succeeded. And chronologically, Shaw is the first mutant terrorist and his actions has caused humans from that point onwards to be afraid of mutants. Hes suceeded in starting the war. Haha fractured? The way the end finished seems like a minor argument. Let me remind you of Zemos quote "An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again. But one which crumbles from within? That's dead..forever. " Oh so I guess The Avengers are permanently split now right, no chance that Thanos will be stopped now that the Avengers are disbanded. They will get togther in the next film and pretend like CW never happened, you know it I know it. Nope, bad writing is having a movie set up to have the illusion of high stakes and loosely following the comic story where a major character does die to signify the importance of a story but then in the movie cowardly withdrawing from even killing a minor character to give the title of CIVIL WAR any weight or justice. Tony Stark and mature are not compatible. Mature adults dont organise play fights in a public airport trashing millions of dollars of property and joking whilst doing it. And yeah, why not have the movie end with Stark so enraged and wanting justice for his dead parents and crippled friend. If we got a dark ending like that, I would be impressed that Disney actually has the guts to try something new and daring. But as the title of this thread is Marvel films being formulaic, this is a clear example of Disneys MCU sticking with the same tone and safe themes. The DOFP reset was not envisioned at the time of X3 filming. Point is, they had the guts to kill of major characters. Killing Logan and Xavier is genuine. They could have easily thought not to kill Logan and do another X23 duo movie which would have made money.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 17:08:54 GMT
No but that's besides the point. I don't think it is. Using their own personal Studio and hedging all the money they had sure was. Those other movies were all made by established studios who could afford bombs. It does matter, it means they're taking credit for someone else's work. What, do you want a sex scene between Teen Peter and MJ? Fox can afford it. And it's 17 years late to the party when others have done all the hard work for them! If they reset it, it's undone. It's them admitting they couldn't stick to their guns. AU future that has no impact on other movies. Cop-Out. So you're upset they won't massacre their cast before their story is done. The Russos explained why they didn't kill anyone in CW. If they had, then we'd automatically sympathize with the side who lost someone. As for AOU, killing Hawkeye would've been predictable.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 17:13:54 GMT
No nuclear war. But the intention for Shaw to cause the cuban missile crisis succeeded.[/quote] He wanted a war to kill Humanity, he failed. No, they just didn't massacre each other. Which wouldn't have made sense anyways. So blood is all that matters, got ya. The only ones who made jokes were the ones who didn't want to fight and were trying to take their mind off of their terrible circumstances. Realistic reaction. You didn't see Black Panther joking around. So it's okay for Xavier to keep letting Magneto go instead of hunting him down and killing him, but it's bad if Tony doesn't turn into some vicious psycho? If DOFP hadn't brought them back, I'd agree. But Singer did that deliberately because he hated that they killed anyone at all. Not in some future AU that has no impact on the rest of the movies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 17:24:35 GMT
Fuck of. MCU movies are just as formulaic as X-men movies or DC movies. Only Marvel produces quality and the other two garbage.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 17:28:56 GMT
Fuck of. MCU movies are just as formulaic as X-men movies or DC movies. Only Marvel produces quality and the other two garbage. Not total garbage. DC gave us WW and some of the X-Movies are good. Of course, WW only got made because the MCU made things easier for WB to make more CBMs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2017 17:32:20 GMT
Fuck of. MCU movies are just as formulaic as X-men movies or DC movies. Only Marvel produces quality and the other two garbage. Not total garbage. DC gave us WW and some of the X-Movies are good. Of course, WW only got made because the MCU made things easier for WB to make more CBMs. I agree but to claim MCU is formulaic and the other two franchises are not can only be made by a blind fanboy idiot.
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Post by kuatorises on Nov 27, 2017 17:41:58 GMT
When you use a phrase like "Marvel Movies" you are implying that they are all the same, and that's simply not true. Iron Man 1, Civil War, GOTG, are all quite different from each other. Capt. America one and two are quite different from each other and that's the same series.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 17:59:51 GMT
When you use a phrase like "Marvel Movies" you are implying that they are all the same, and that's simply not true. Iron Man 1, Civil War, GOTG, are all quite different from each other. Capt. America one and two are quite different from each other and that's the same series. Apparently, because they all wear costumes and all make some jokes and all are the stars of their movies instead of the villains being the stars...that somehow means they're the same.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 18:15:34 GMT
So blood is all that matters, got ya. Blood and death are appropriate when a movies story requires it to amplify the stakes. Clearly Disney shy away from that so are limiting themselves- hence the accusations of "sticking to what they know" i.e formulaic. No Black Panther was not making jokes thats fine. But the whole context of the airport fight is just ridiculous. Others are joking about whilst destroying property and attempting to seriously hurt each other. Antman makes some joke whilst Cap throws a giant bus at Rhodey which could easily have killed him. The whole sequence is tonally jarring and ludicrous even though its visually appealing Stop saying Xavier should kill Magneto. Hes a pacifist and doesnt believe in the death sentence for even the gravest of criminals. Yeah, Tony turning into someone like Batman from BvS, a billionaire tech geek whose gone rogue from mental instability would be different. Not in some future AU that has no impact on the rest of the movies. [/quote] You're missing the point. At the time of X3, they consciously made the major decision to kill Jean, Xavier and Cyclops without future knowledge that they would be brought back. That in isolation is a gutsy move. And in logan, where else were they supposed to kill him. The far future was the only time period they could have killed him, narratively speaking.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 18:22:21 GMT
Blood and death are appropriate when a movies story requires it to amplify the stakes. Killing characters indiscriminately just for "stakes" is lazy writing, because you're throwing away perfectly good characters for shock value. Look at Superman in BvS. Look at the Warriors 3 in Ragnarok. MCU finally gives in and kills people "realistically" in that they die fast and without warning and audiences still complain. They all knew that an Iron Man suit could handle that. Tony even told Peter that Steve wasn't really fighting to hurt. Life doesn't have one single tone. You don't see him mourning Shaw or Stryker or Apocalypse. So would having Xavier finally decide enough is enough and kill Magneto. Would you be saying this if that happened? Yeah, and if DOFP hadn't undone that I'd agree with you. But it did. And it was ENTIRELY because Singer just didn't like that they were dead! If they hadn't messed up the timelines, they could've given us a movie where he died in the present. Or Hell, kill him permanently in DOFP ensuring that the timeline will be different this time around. That last scene is a flash forward where future Xavier mourns Logan and how he never got a chance to know him this time around.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 18:39:17 GMT
Killing characters indiscriminately just for "stakes" is lazy writing, because you're throwing away perfectly good characters for shock value. Look at Superman in BvS. Its not lazy, its effective when used correctly - which Supermans death was not. Warriors 3 death is a good example of how their deaths were not impactful because we didnt get to see Thors response. They were killing for the sake of killing. Shock factor as you put it. Magnetos wife and kid are new to the film but Erics reaction makes that death feel emotional, more than Warriors 3 Iron suit didnt help Rhodey when he blasted outta the sky. Lazy excuse. He wanted Eric to spare Shaw. He didn't know what happened to Stryker in X2. Apocalypse couldn't be reasoned with, but il admit this is poor inconsistent writing. Apocalypse was just a more evil version of Magneto and Xavier should have had more screentime in talking to Nur to explore their clash of ideologies, like Charles has done with Eric. No because Xavier in the films has a defined personality, being reserved, logical and empathetic. It would take a lot to break him. Tony as a comparison is unstable, loose canon mad scientist so my description of him turning rogue fits with his persona. He was dieing because of the adamantium leeching into his body, poisoning him slowly due to old age. The present day he was still healthy.
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