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Post by PreachCaleb on Nov 29, 2017 21:16:01 GMT
Oh, Riley, we hardly knew ye.
Riley's swan song out of the Buffyverse. As a fan, I was sad to see him go, but in retrospect, it's pretty obvious the writers just didn't know what to do with him. The whole getting fed on by vampires was weird, but it fit in nicely as a metaphor for cheating on a partner. And metaphors are what the show's always been good at.
It's still a good fake out at the end when Riley looks up and for a second we're led to believe Buffy will get to him in time.
Once again, Buffy suffers the gut punch of having her boyfriend leave town as she watches. Poor girl.
On to Angel now. Reunion. Wow, just wow. Another great episode and a fantastic follow up to The Trial. The pace of this episode almost from the very beginning is constantly driving forward. Angel needs to get to Darla before she wakes, then he needs to track down both Darla and Drusilla before they unleash hell in LA. He's frantic in his searches.
The looks on Wesley and Cordy's faces when they learn Dru is in town are powerful. You can almost see the color drain from them as they realize their problems have literally just doubled. The gang working together to track down Dru and Darla is a nice bit of detective work. And kudos to Gunn for figuring out a plant nursery is what Dru had in mind. A great peak into how smart he actually is and is more than just the muscle of the group.
We get Dru's first fight scene since Becoming as she and Angel battle over Darla's corpse. Darla and Dru's reunion is another great little scene. Again, the chemistry between the actors is just amazing. Darla and Dru really come across as two characters who hadn't seen each other in decades, yet they pick up right where they left off in their carnage.
It's interesting that we never got full on present day reunion between the quartet. Whether it was season 2 of Buffy with Angel/Spike/Dru or season 2 of Angel (coincidence?!) with Angel/Darla/Dru, we never see all four together.
The final act is another downer for the show. Angel is at his coldest. The look of utter apathy as Holland and Lilah, of all people, are practically begging for his help is chilling. DB can say so much with just a look, and this is his most IDGAF about you guys. My war is with Darla and Dru.
The firing of the Angel Investigations crew was as shocking for the audience as it was for them. Angel is on his way to abandoning his mission. He's obsessed with war rather than helping the hopeless. He's at his lowest point and he'll remain there for several episodes. His dark arc is almost a precursor to Buffy's season-long depression later on.
Can't wait for the next episodes.
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Dec 1, 2017 9:33:13 GMT
I can't say as I was sad to see Riley go. It was kind of painful watching him be emasculated. Poor, poor Riley. Lost everything: his military unit, Professor Walsh, his drugs, his chip, his self-esteem, his purpose, his girlfriend. He couldn't stand not being hyper-powered. He blamed buffy for that, but I think it was his own insecurities. He also couldn't handle being with a girl who didn't need rescuing.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Dec 1, 2017 16:53:20 GMT
Believe me, I don't mourn the character that we lost. I mourn the potential character we could've had. Rather than focusing on Riley feeling emasculated (a trite cliched), the writers should've focused on him feeling lost.
Because he did lose a lot. Pretty much everything he'd come to define himself with. His character arc should've been about finding his place in the world, not about feeling not man enough for Buffy. Had we gotten that character, he might've been better received by the fans. Riley's best scenes for me are in season 4 when he's struggling to find out which side is the good guys and which side he's supposed to be on.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Dec 2, 2017 6:52:06 GMT
Re: 'Into the Woods' **spoilers below if you haven't yet watched the episode** I never hated Riley. I might not have thought he was ‘great’, but I didn’t mind him. Obviously any guy after Angel was going to pale in comparison. I did think it was interesting that the show decided to try having Buffy in a relationship with a regular human as a change of pace from “Mr. Billy Coat King of Pain” as Riley referred to Angel (I’ll admit Riley got the occasional amusing line). Of course, it turned out Riley wasn’t quite so ‘normal’ after all - since he was a soldier who worked for a vampire/demon/monster hunting organization. It’s kind of a shame that they had to resort to Riley feeling ‘inadequate’ in comparison to Buffy. Would it have been that difficult to have him not feel that way and just accept her being stronger than him/not needing his protection? On second thought...considering how certain guys feel about strong women in shows/movies, maybe it was more accurate to real life than one might first give it credit for. Still, it was disappointing that Riley was somewhat of self-sabotaging with his relationship. I think the most interesting I found Riley was in the Season 4 episode ‘Goodbye Iowa’, when he was going through withdrawal from the drugs that had been slipped into his food by the folks at The Initiative and he was very confused/angry, which led to him pulling a gun on an innocent human and him wondering aloud, “Like if I shot you right now, I don't know if I'd have a corpse on my hands or one pissed off vampire.” – I felt kind of sorry for him there. He was usually such a polite guy, so it was quite shocking to see him acting nothing like his regular self, threatening innocents (including Willy the bartender) – the sort of people who Riley would normally be protecting. I think Spike was at least partially correct in his assessment of Buffy: “The girl needs some monster in her man.” – though how much that was due to the fact that the first Slayer was made by imbuing a girl with the power of a demon...I don’t know. Maybe that had something to do with it (I also wonder how many Spike fans got the fright of their life when Riley ‘staked’ Spike?). Speaking of Buffy’s ‘darkness’ – I loved how ‘cold’ she was with the staking of the vampire girl she’d seen feeding on Riley earlier. SMG did such a job acting very calculated/just getting her job done, taking out multiple vampires quickly/effectively, but then very deliberately giving that lone vampire female the slightest glimmer of false hope that she’d be allowed to live...only to take it away from her. I do know that Buffy and Riley’s fight in the episode seemed a bit 'all over the place'. It started with Riley having one excuse for his actions, then switching to another, laying some of the blame at Buffy’s feet (how much of that was warranted is really up to the individual viewer, I think) and then just throwing out everything he could think of as a reason for his actions. I won’t say the fight was a ‘mess’, as it’s my experience in the heat of the moment you *don’t* typically think straight and your thought process can be somewhat muddled, so what you’re feeling can just spew forth in a shambles. It was kind of a jerky move for him to give her an ultimatum, but I could somewhat understand his feelings (even though I didn’t agree with them). Like you mentioned, PreachCaleb, they really got us with the part where Buffy ran down the stairs and Riley looked up – more shows/movies could utilize that trick (though it may get old after a while). I think by that point I was kind of hoping she’d make it in time...but, of course, she didn’t. Although, as I saw mentioned elsewhere around the time I watched the episode, Buffy didn’t look so much ‘sad’ as more in a state of ‘shock’ – two quite different feelings, I think. I will admit that Riley just not feeling any reason to glance down once he was in the helicopter, having given up all hope Buffy would appear, resonated with me. I have felt that hopeless at times, and it did make me feel sorry for the guy. In the end, though, he met his perfect match in Sam (Ivana Milovic), who was tough/could hold her own/kick butt, but not at 'Slayer level'. I was glad Riley got a ‘happy ending’ of sorts.
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Post by mmexis on Dec 2, 2017 7:28:37 GMT
I just realized that they always refer to Riley's wife as Sam. Such a male difference from the fluffy Buffy (intentional rhyme) and reinforces that he's only really comfortable around guys. Bet you she wears the pants in the family.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Dec 5, 2017 16:56:12 GMT
Which is why for the longest time, I've lamented the writers never explored his relationship with Xander. The show was too focused on keeping Riley as Buffy's boyfriend and not giving him much apart from that.
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Post by mmexis on Dec 7, 2017 9:04:29 GMT
It was sad to watch him implode, really. The cornfed, cornbred (cornbread?) midwestern boy. Believed he had to save women/damsels in distress. The "gentle parfit knight". At times they made him virginal - and maybe he was (Buffy: you have a lot to learn about women. Riley: can you teach me? [or something along those lines] in any case, cringeworthy!)
In my humble opinion, I think the fact that Buffy didn't need him to rescue her bothered him more than her super strength. Not that he was particularly happy with that either, but as long as he was pumped full of drugs, at least he matched her. And he could appreciate someone who trained and was physically fit. There is also the difficulty in reconciling the perceived fragility with the self-sufficiency. After all, he's spent the whole season getting down books from top shelves, putting up banners, being a TA, following orders and generally being helpful. And, of course, his betrayal from so many finally drove him around the bend.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Dec 7, 2017 14:47:17 GMT
That's a great point. It wasn't so much her physical strength, but her inner strength he couldn't deal with.
His arc should've been learning to deal with it.
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Post by ag25 on Mar 8, 2018 0:50:26 GMT
Oh, Riley, we hardly knew ye. Riley's swan song out of the Buffyverse. As a fan, I was sad to see him go, but in retrospect, it's pretty obvious the writers just didn't know what to do with him. The whole getting fed on by vampires was weird, but it fit in nicely as a metaphor for cheating on a partner. And metaphors are what the show's always been good at. It's still a good fake out at the end when Riley looks up and for a second we're led to believe Buffy will get to him in time. Once again, Buffy suffers the gut punch of having her boyfriend leave town as she watches. Poor girl. On to Angel now. Reunion. Wow, just wow. Another great episode and a fantastic follow up to The Trial. The pace of this episode almost from the very beginning is constantly driving forward. Angel needs to get to Darla before she wakes, then he needs to track down both Darla and Drusilla before they unleash hell in LA. He's frantic in his searches. The looks on Wesley and Cordy's faces when they learn Dru is in town are powerful. You can almost see the color drain from them as they realize their problems have literally just doubled. The gang working together to track down Dru and Darla is a nice bit of detective work. And kudos to Gunn for figuring out a plant nursery is what Dru had in mind. A great peak into how smart he actually is and is more than just the muscle of the group. We get Dru's first fight scene since Becoming as she and Angel battle over Darla's corpse. Darla and Dru's reunion is another great little scene. Again, the chemistry between the actors is just amazing. Darla and Dru really come across as two characters who hadn't seen each other in decades, yet they pick up right where they left off in their carnage. It's interesting that we never got full on present day reunion between the quartet. Whether it was season 2 of Buffy with Angel/Spike/Dru or season 2 of Angel (coincidence?!) with Angel/Darla/Dru, we never see all four together. The final act is another downer for the show. Angel is at his coldest. The look of utter apathy as Holland and Lilah, of all people, are practically begging for his help is chilling. DB can say so much with just a look, and this is his most IDGAF about you guys. My war is with Darla and Dru. The firing of the Angel Investigations crew was as shocking for the audience as it was for them. Angel is on his way to abandoning his mission. He's obsessed with war rather than helping the hopeless. He's at his lowest point and he'll remain there for several episodes. His dark arc is almost a precursor to Buffy's season-long depression later on. Can't wait for the next episodes. First, I am so sorry, Caleb, it has taken me so long to respond to this! Reunion is one of my favorite Angel episodes, so I have been meaning to do this for a while.
Anyway, regarding Into the Woods, I did rewatch it especially for you Caleb so I could reply properly, lol. While I am not a Riley fan, I do not hate him. He is a good guy/character, I liked him more in season 4, and I liked that he was both normal and had the military training/knew of the supernatural world...is that a contradiction, lol? But I still don't get why he felt unloved or that he felt didn't have enough of Buffy's attention. Of course her attention would be more on her mother with her illness, and her duties as the Slayer, so her attention to him would, understandably, be lessoned. But in this very episode, Buffy made specific time for Riley once she knew her mother was ok and I felt that she was expressing her love for him. The cheating metaphor was used well though, I agree.
The ultimatum Riley gives Buffy is not something I am a fan of. I side more with her in her shock that he basically told her to give him a reason to stay or he's leaving when she had just caught him "cheating." Now, I do understand Xander's point, partially, about how Buffy may not have fully opened up to Riley, but it didn't seem nearly as bad to me from what I saw. And after Angel left, her bad experience with Parker, and then her mother's illness as well as the "introduction" of Dawn, she is allowed to shift her priorities and put Riley on the backburner for a bit. He should have been more understanding, or at the very least, have talked to Buffy about his problems with their relationship when he realized she didn't love him (as we found out when he told Xander), and see if they could have worked it out instead of giving her an ultimatum, in my opinion.
This extends to Xander's speech to Buffy at the end, where for me he comes off very self righteous; as though he has the moral high ground. Xander has made plenty of mistakes himself and lecturing Buffy as he did just didn't sit well with me. I get his point, and even agree with him to an extent, but the way it played out was not my cup of tea and is another example of my problems with Xander's character. I loved the heart to heart scene between Riley and Spike and the fake "staking." Poor Buffy indeed.
Now, on to Reunion....I agree with everything you said, Caleb!!! There is not much for me to add. WOW is right!
You are right; the episode is a great follow up to The Trial, and there is this urgency all throughout it.
I, too, am sad we never got to see all four of Angel, Spike, Darla, and Dru together in the present. Missed opportunity?
Angel and the wine cellar scene is one of my absolute favorite scenes on the show! It is so wonderful in a dark and chilling way! David was spot on, as were all the others.
Angel firing his crew was shocking and a the start of the low point for him, but I love this arc (not so much the next few episodes) and the journey it takes them all on.
Good catch that it is a precursor for Buffy's depression storyline! See, it's things like this that even though they are separate shows now, they are still connected on different levels. Brilliant writing, whether it was intentional or not!
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Post by ag25 on Mar 8, 2018 0:51:12 GMT
I can't say as I was sad to see Riley go. It was kind of painful watching him be emasculated. Poor, poor Riley. Lost everything: his military unit, Professor Walsh, his drugs, his chip, his self-esteem, his purpose, his girlfriend. He couldn't stand not being hyper-powered. He blamed buffy for that, but I think it was his own insecurities. He also couldn't handle being with a girl who didn't need rescuing. Exactly.
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Post by ag25 on Mar 8, 2018 0:53:16 GMT
Believe me, I don't mourn the character that we lost. I mourn the potential character we could've had. Rather than focusing on Riley feeling emasculated (a trite cliched), the writers should've focused on him feeling lost. Because he did lose a lot. Pretty much everything he'd come to define himself with. His character arc should've been about finding his place in the world, not about feeling not man enough for Buffy. Had we gotten that character, he might've been better received by the fans. Riley's best scenes for me are in season 4 when he's struggling to find out which side is the good guys and which side he's supposed to be on. I agree with this too, Caleb. It's the writing that failed Riley more than the character himself. I was sad to see the lost potential for him too.
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Post by ag25 on Mar 8, 2018 1:00:36 GMT
That's a great point. It wasn't so much her physical strength, but her inner strength he couldn't deal with. His arc should've been learning to deal with it. Yep.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 8, 2018 19:31:41 GMT
Believe me, I don't mourn the character that we lost. I mourn the potential character we could've had. Rather than focusing on Riley feeling emasculated (a trite cliched), the writers should've focused on him feeling lost. Because he did lose a lot. Pretty much everything he'd come to define himself with. His character arc should've been about finding his place in the world, not about feeling not man enough for Buffy. Had we gotten that character, he might've been better received by the fans. Riley's best scenes for me are in season 4 when he's struggling to find out which side is the good guys and which side he's supposed to be on. I agree with this too, Caleb. It's the writing that failed Riley more than the character himself. I was sad to see the lost potential for him too. I'm flattered you rewatched Into the Woods to give a more thoughtful response. I just finished As You Were, and once again, it's obvious Riley was at his strongest when he was involved with The Initiative/military. The episode is almost an apology by the writers to what was done to Riley in season 5. The failing on the writers' part was to not make him a fully rounded character. After season 4, he existed merely to be Buffy's boyfriend. The scene in Fool For Love with him and scoobies is just another peek at what his character should have been. There was great potential for his more militaristic by the books hunting contrasted to the scoobies laid back disorganized slaying. There was so much to play off of. Friend to Xander. Big brother to Dawn. Confused by Anya. Back up to Giles (their raid of Dracula's castle was a fun little moment). Maybe he and Tara could've shared some moments about what it's like to date a powerful woman or what it's like to really be on their own, Riley's out of the military and Tara's family has practically disowned her.
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Post by mmexis on Mar 9, 2018 7:19:05 GMT
But I think that was the point to make him cardboard (as Spike says). In the end, it was all a long set-up for Spike and to further reinforce to Buffy that she couldn't do "ordinary". While she longed for the normal life, it was not for her - not one aspect of it. Nothing about Buffy's life was "normal": Dawn was made up, her parents were separated [ok, maybe that was normal - lol], she had superpowers and was dealing with things beyond the ken of most people, she was living on a hellmouth, her friends were all supernatural in some way - barring Cordelia, but then, was she a friend?, her first post-Angel boyfriend was killed, her second one was a douche and then we had cornfed he-man Riley. And, finally, as a teenager, she had her life planned out for her in direct opposition to most of her peers. I agree that the show needed another male. Lord knows Xander mentions it over and over.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 9, 2018 16:23:05 GMT
But I think that was the point to make him cardboard (as Spike says). In the end, it was all a long set-up for Spike and to further reinforce to Buffy that she couldn't do "ordinary". While she longed for the normal life, it was not for her - not one aspect of it. Nothing about Buffy's life was "normal": Dawn was made up, her parents were separated [ok, maybe that was normal - lol], she had superpowers and was dealing with things beyond the ken of most people, she was living on a hellmouth, her friends were all supernatural in some way - barring Cordelia, but then, was she a friend?, , her second one was a douche and then we had cornfed he-man Riley. And, finally, as a teenager, she had her life planned out for her in direct opposition to most of her peers. I agree that the show needed another male. Lord knows Xander mentions it over and over. I can understand that, and there does seem to be a lot of evidence to support that. I have no issue with a character being used to serve another or to further a storyline. I think the problem is that since Riley was a main character, it's jarring and a disservice to the character and actor to not fully flesh him out. There was a lot that could've been done with Riley to keep him as Captain Cardboard in Buffy's life, yet still let him be a rounded out character. It would've made Into the Woods that much more tragic. As it stands, it really only affected Buffy. Had Riley been a more likable character, it would've affected the audience as well. I'm sure plenty were happy to seem him go and others just didn't really care, which is a shame and highlights the weaknesses in his story. And yes, another male on the show would've been great. Riley could've been a nice balance between Xander and Giles. Mature enough to be serious but young enough to still have fun. Scott Hope?
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Post by mmexis on Mar 10, 2018 3:33:14 GMT
Riley started off great but I think they probably listened to the fans and since they didn't appear to like him..... the flattening of Riley. I also get the impression that the writers got tired of him. I don't have a problem with what you mentioned either. I just re-watched Amends yesterday and was surprised by all the foreshadowing that would come to fruition years later. They even reused the same "monster image" of the first. I was commenting on Buffy's lack of ordinary.
as to the post angel boyfriend, I totally forgot Scott Hope. I was thinking of the guy who was reading "of human bondage". Of course he wasn't a boyfriend, just a male acquaintance of the slimmest kind. Erroneously lumped him in the boyfriend category.
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Post by ag25 on Mar 28, 2018 23:04:47 GMT
But I think that was the point to make him cardboard (as Spike says). In the end, it was all a long set-up for Spike and to further reinforce to Buffy that she couldn't do "ordinary". While she longed for the normal life, it was not for her - not one aspect of it. Nothing about Buffy's life was "normal": Dawn was made up, her parents were separated [ok, maybe that was normal - lol], she had superpowers and was dealing with things beyond the ken of most people, she was living on a hellmouth, her friends were all supernatural in some way - barring Cordelia, but then, was she a friend?, , her second one was a douche and then we had cornfed he-man Riley. And, finally, as a teenager, she had her life planned out for her in direct opposition to most of her peers. I agree that the show needed another male. Lord knows Xander mentions it over and over. I can understand that, and there does seem to be a lot of evidence to support that. I have no issue with a character being used to serve another or to further a storyline. I think the problem is that since Riley was a main character, it's jarring and a disservice to the character and actor to not fully flesh him out. There was a lot that could've been done with Riley to keep him as Captain Cardboard in Buffy's life, yet still let him be a rounded out character. It would've made Into the Woods that much more tragic. As it stands, it really only affected Buffy. Had Riley been a more likable character, it would've affected the audience as well. I'm sure plenty were happy to seem him go and others just didn't really care, which is a shame and highlights the weaknesses in his story. And yes, another male on the show would've been great. Riley could've been a nice balance between Xander and Giles. Mature enough to be serious but young enough to still have fun. Scott Hope?
Yep, I agree. While on the one hand I don't mind Riley being Captain Cardboard as long as he was a well rounded character, but then on the other hand I thought he was "too normal." I know, contradiction, but I think Buffy needed someone who was aware of, and maybe could have been involved with, Buffy's supernatural world and yet give her some normalcy. Like if her love interest was a young Watcher/Watcher in training, knowledgeable about supernatural world, has some training in magic and combat but is not inherently magical. I don't know, but something along those lines. That is why I like Anya. She isn't just comic relief, and while she doesn't have a lot of fighting skills (as a human), she provides a lot of knowledge about demons, magic, and other supernatural things.
I, too, thought there should have been more male characters to help out Xander and Giles.
Funny that all of Buffy's main/significant love interests all have Captain names (running joke?): Captain Forehead = Angel, Captain Cardboard = Riley, and Captain Peroxide = Spike, lol!
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Post by ag25 on Mar 28, 2018 23:17:08 GMT
I agree with this too, Caleb. It's the writing that failed Riley more than the character himself. I was sad to see the lost potential for him too. I'm flattered you rewatched Into the Woods to give a more thoughtful response. I just finished As You Were, and once again, it's obvious Riley was at his strongest when he was involved with The Initiative/military. The episode is almost an apology by the writers to what was done to Riley in season 5. The failing on the writers' part was to not make him a fully rounded character. After season 4, he existed merely to be Buffy's boyfriend. The scene in Fool For Love with him and scoobies is just another peek at what his character should have been. There was great potential for his more militaristic by the books hunting contrasted to the scoobies laid back disorganized slaying. There was so much to play off of. Friend to Xander. Big brother to Dawn. Confused by Anya. Back up to Giles (their raid of Dracula's castle was a fun little moment). Maybe he and Tara could've shared some moments about what it's like to date a powerful woman or what it's like to really be on their own, Riley's out of the military and Tara's family has practically disowned her. Yes, yes, and yes! Such a shame.
Do you think that maybe the writers stopped writing military Riley in response to the not no well received (in my opinion) Initiative/Adam aspect of season 4, or something along those lines?
Riley and Tara bonding over being outcasts would have been interesting/great!
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Post by mmexis on Mar 29, 2018 4:00:39 GMT
But Riley was both of those things. He WAS aware of the supernatural world, of monsters and of how to contain/kill them. He could have done both since he didn't need to "learn" about these things. Nope, IMHO, Riley's problem was pure competitiveness. Someone called him Teutonic and that's what he was: tall, broad, normal. The problem was that he wanted to be the knight in shining armour that needed to save the damsel in distress. And Buffy was never in distress. He couldn't reconcile all the military weaponry being less effective than a girl in normal clothes jabbing them "with a sharp stick". He was proud of his 17, until Buffy told him her exploits. Let's be real here, like a military man, he needed to serve and protect - and he really couldn't do either, especially the protect. He expected Buffy to be the blonde stereotype, and she was not. Lol to all the captains!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 29, 2018 18:27:46 GMT
Ha ha ha. Never noticed all the captains in Buffy's life.
I don't think it's so much that Riley wanted or even needed to be the knight in shining armor (his wife Sam certainly doesn't need to be protected), it's that that's all he was ever trained to be. He spent years in the military and then was recruited into the Initiative. Fighting monsters and saving people was practically his whole life/identity. And then it was taken from him.
The writers missed the ball on exploring that aspect of his character. They were too focused on his insecurities with Buffy.
As ag said, I do think it might've been reactionary on the writers' part against the Initiative storyline.
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