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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 19:48:36 GMT
Fair enough. But in my defense, I never dwell over a franchise I completely dislike. I feel if there's a particular movie series that I'm not a fan of, I usually don't spend a lot of time talking about it. However, when there's a franchise I actually do really enjoy, it's fun to discuss areas that could use improvement. I'm not gonna just talk about what I liked and be blind to all the problems I have with it. It's not as black and white as saying something negative means I don't like it or vice versa. I'm not that mundane about these things. But... you had no way of knowing all that. So again, fair enough. I can see where your confusion came from. I would say you were a little quick to jump to that conclusion but I know where you're coming from, what with all the contsba MCU bash on here. There may not be a whole lot of newer posts with me praising the MCU, but they're definitely here. I've talked about the things I enjoy ad nauseam. Sometimes it's interesting to discuss areas that aren't so perfect, I do it with all my favorite franchises but that doesn't mean I like them any less. "Fair enough. But in my defense, I never dwell over a franchise I completely dislike." Then you are a severe minority on IMDbv2. Of course, I'm sure you are painfully aware of that. Alright, fair enough. Sorry I jumped so quickly to the defensive. It's all good. In all honesty, I pretty much did the same thing.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 19:51:28 GMT
Oh dear god, please don't tell me you're gong to start following me around this board and plaguing every single post I interact with. You're wrong. Not a troll at all, and if you had read any of my previous responses to you, you'd see that I ACTUALLY AGREED WITH YOU ON MOST POINTS! Shocking, I know, but now that you've revealed that you just want to win arguments and call anyone who disagrees with you as a "troll" (so cliché), I shouldn't have even attempted a friendly discussion. I resurrected one old thread (that's right, just ONE!) because I saw it as a subject worth talking about. And also, this isn't an old thread at all. This was was the first thread on the first page (other than the pinned ones) when I originally clicked on it. Here's another shock, and something I mentioned in my other post which you ignored, I'm a huge MCU fan. But does that mean I'm gonna worship every single thing they do and think that they're capable of doing no wrong (which is something you probably do)? No. I'm gonna be objective about it. The only two movies I disliked were Iron Man 3 and Homecoming. Also, I find that they haven't done the best with their villains which, as I also already mentioned, seems to be getting better now. So yeah, it may look like I'm another troll that just wants to criticize the MCU (there are many here, but I'm not one of them) but that's just not true. You threw me into that category based on what, two different posts? Hey, if I got the wrong idea about you, it's because all of your recent activity here on the MCU board has been throat-punching the series. You haven't even bothered replying to any positive topics about it. I stand by my statement that most villains in all of cinema are just average-to-forgettable. Hell, most other villains in non-MCU superhero films are average-to-forgettable. Sure, Jack Nicholson's Joker was great, but Penguin and Catwoman were just average, and the Schumacher villains are memorable for all the wrongs reasons. Sure, McKellen's Magneto is great, but Stryker in the second film is as by-the-numbers as they come, same with every other X-Men villain in that film series. Sure, Ledger's The Joker was great because of the performer, but Ra's al Ghul, and The Scarecrow are just average, and Bane was a gross misrepresentation of the character. So yeah, great villains even in other superhero films are the minority, too. If you're going to criticize the MCU for having a lot of average or forgettable villains, then you also have to apply that to the rest of cinema. Pretty much what I've been saying all this time. There's nothing wrong with criticizing MCU villains, but making it seem like they produce worse villains than other cbm studios (or heck even other action/adventure movies) is just plain dumb and incorrect.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 19:54:38 GMT
The MCU should have set the bar higher. TDK trilogy and the original Spiderman trilogy set a much higher bar. Especially in regard to my numbers 3-4 listed above. The MCU does a decent job with 1-2 most of the time so that's not a huge issue anyway. And this notion that old movies have weak one dimensional villains while modern movies have a higher standard is just plain wrong. Not true. Raimi's SM movies gave us 2 good (but not great) villains and 2 crappy villains. The TDK trilogy gave us 1 great villain, 2 decent villains and the rest were forgettable. The MCU has already given us at least 3 great villains and around 8 or so good to decent villains. The MCU, by virtue of having more movies, have resulted in giving us more crappy villains than either the TDK or Raimi trilogies but they've also given us a lot more good to great villains. But it is incorrect to say that their bar for villains is any worse than the two trilogies. We have different opinions here. All of this is pretty subjective. I don't think the MCU is full of bad villains. Most are actually just fine. I just personally want to see more villains get the treatment that Thanos and Loki received. I think they've missed an oppertunity to give their villains the same iconic adaptations that they've given their heroes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 19:56:39 GMT
The real problem with Iron Man 3 and the Mandarin was that they pulled off the twist so well, audience goers really were sucked in and no one likes being made to feel foolish or admit they were fooled. Even if that was the whole point, to essentially prank the audience. Look at Dark Knight Rises and how everyone pretty much guessed the Talia twist before the movie came out. No one was upset, because no one was fooled. Because, you fucking imbecile, the Talia "Twist" was spoiled from the set photos. Also when Nolan said that The Dark Knight Rises was going to bring it full circle with Batman Begins, we all knew Talia was going to be in it. So in reality none of us, save for the gullible retards who took the actress word, we're surprised that her character was in the film. Marvel has no excuse other than that they're abunch of fucking pussies who had to resort to fucking white washing because they don't want to "offend" people. Sometimes I wish you weren't banned from here simply because I want to fight you.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Nov 8, 2018 20:12:50 GMT
I didn’t know it was controversial. It always seemed, to me at least, to be the most widely accepted flaw of the MCU as a whole.
The worst offenders are the old money CEO type villains. There are too many and they are especially awful in the Iron Man films where the rich white dude was really the one behind the seemingly much greater threat. Obadiah Stane was great... at the time. But after having Justin Hammer, Aldrich Killian, Darren Cross, and even Alexander Pierce, they all started to blend together.
The best of the bunch is The Vulture, Thanos, and Loki, who was first shown in the mostly silly Thor film. I’m also a fan of Emil Blonsky before he turns into Abomination. Other than that, they’ve mostly been forgettable.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 20:50:45 GMT
Hey, if I got the wrong idea about you, it's because all of your recent activity here on the MCU board has been throat-punching the series. You haven't even bothered replying to any positive topics about it. I stand by my statement that most villains in all of cinema are just average-to-forgettable. Hell, most other villains in non-MCU superhero films are average-to-forgettable. Sure, Jack Nicholson's Joker was great, but Penguin and Catwoman were just average, and the Schumacher villains are memorable for all the wrongs reasons. Sure, McKellen's Magneto is great, but Stryker in the second film is as by-the-numbers as they come, same with every other X-Men villain in that film series. Sure, Ledger's The Joker was great because of the performer, but Ra's al Ghul, and The Scarecrow are just average, and Bane was a gross misrepresentation of the character. So yeah, great villains even in other superhero films are the minority, too. If you're going to criticize the MCU for having a lot of average or forgettable villains, then you also have to apply that to the rest of cinema. Pretty much what I've been saying all this time. There's nothing wrong with criticizing MCU villains, but making it seem like they produce worse villains than other cbm studios (or heck even other action/adventure movies) is just plain dumb and incorrect. I don't know if this was directed at me, but I had said that all comic book superhero movies should have villains equally as compelling as the heroes, not just the MCU. I even pointed out how some of the other studios did, indeed, have bland villains as well. Sure, some others have pointed out the MCU has had a lot more movies than the others and, thus, had more chances at depicting great villains. But irregardless, it shouldn't matter when great antagonists are a dime a dozen in all comic book superhero franchises. I can't speak for other posters, but I know that I was criticizing every comic book superhero movie as a whole, not just the MCU.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 20:58:41 GMT
Pretty much what I've been saying all this time. There's nothing wrong with criticizing MCU villains, but making it seem like they produce worse villains than other cbm studios (or heck even other action/adventure movies) is just plain dumb and incorrect. I don't know if this was directed at me, but I had said that all comic book superhero movies should have villains equally as compelling as the heroes, not just the MCU. I even pointed out how some of the other studios did, indeed, have bland villains as well. Sure, some others have pointed out the MCU has had a lot more movies than the others and, thus, had more chances at depicting great villains. But irregardless, it shouldn't matter when great antagonists are a dime a dozen in all comic book superhero franchises. I can't speak for other posters, but I know that I was criticizing every comic book superhero movie as a whole, not just the MCU. No, I hadn't meant that reply for you. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 21:02:31 GMT
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I had said that all comic book superhero movies should have villains equally as compelling as the heroes, not just the MCU. I even pointed out how some of the other studios did, indeed, have bland villains as well. Sure, some others have pointed out the MCU has had a lot more movies than the others and, thus, had more chances at depicting great villains. But irregardless, it shouldn't matter when great antagonists are a dime a dozen in all comic book superhero franchises. I can't speak for other posters, but I know that I was criticizing every comic book superhero movie as a whole, not just the MCU. No, I hadn't meant that reply for you. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. It's all good. I didn't actually think so. I still wanted to clear that up though in case anyone did get confused by my original post.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 21:24:03 GMT
Not true. Raimi's SM movies gave us 2 good (but not great) villains and 2 crappy villains. The TDK trilogy gave us 1 great villain, 2 decent villains and the rest were forgettable. The MCU has already given us at least 3 great villains and around 8 or so good to decent villains. The MCU, by virtue of having more movies, have resulted in giving us more crappy villains than either the TDK or Raimi trilogies but they've also given us a lot more good to great villains. But it is incorrect to say that their bar for villains is any worse than the two trilogies. We have different opinions here. All of this is pretty subjective. I don't think the MCU is full of bad villains. Most are actually just fine. I just personally want to see more villains get the treatment that Thanos and Loki received. I think they've missed an oppertunity to give their villains the same iconic adaptations that they've given their heroes. Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 8, 2018 21:33:55 GMT
A great movie villain is comprised of four things (in my opinion) 1) Character depth (more than just an evil mustache twirling baddie) 2) Great visual design (assuming it's a fantasy, sci fi or comic book movie) 3) Commanding on-screen presence. (think Darth Vader or the Universal monsters) 4) Compelling conflict with the protagonist. Which is to say that a good villain must create extreme opposition for the main character. I believe a lot of MCU movies fail miserably at 3-4. Many succeed at half. And some fail at all four. Only a few succeed at all four. I think this calls for a post grading every single antagonist in these four categories. I’d really like for someone to actually do this. I know it would take a lot of time and effort but the result would be extremely interesting. People could even debate what they agree and disagree with. I’d give it a shot myself but, admittedly, I don’t think I’m up for the task nor do I feel I’m qualified to give a definitive grading. But I would be quite impressed if someone else could pull it off.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 21:58:46 GMT
We have different opinions here. All of this is pretty subjective. I don't think the MCU is full of bad villains. Most are actually just fine. I just personally want to see more villains get the treatment that Thanos and Loki received. I think they've missed an oppertunity to give their villains the same iconic adaptations that they've given their heroes. Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did. Zemo on the same level as Winter Soldier and Doc Ock?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 22:06:51 GMT
Hey, if I got the wrong idea about you, it's because all of your recent activity here on the MCU board has been throat-punching the series. You haven't even bothered replying to any positive topics about it. I stand by my statement that most villains in all of cinema are just average-to-forgettable. Hell, most other villains in non-MCU superhero films are average-to-forgettable. Sure, Jack Nicholson's Joker was great, but Penguin and Catwoman were just average, and the Schumacher villains are memorable for all the wrongs reasons. Sure, McKellen's Magneto is great, but Stryker in the second film is as by-the-numbers as they come, same with every other X-Men villain in that film series. Sure, Ledger's The Joker was great because of the performer, but Ra's al Ghul, and The Scarecrow are just average, and Bane was a gross misrepresentation of the character. So yeah, great villains even in other superhero films are the minority, too. If you're going to criticize the MCU for having a lot of average or forgettable villains, then you also have to apply that to the rest of cinema. Pretty much what I've been saying all this time. There's nothing wrong with criticizing MCU villains, but making it seem like they produce worse villains than other cbm studios (or heck even other action/adventure movies) is just plain dumb and incorrect. I wouldn't have a problem with MCU criticisms, but they never STAY just criticisms. For one, everyone WAY overblows the issue of most of the villains just being average, but they won't acknowledge that it's that way all across the film on the movie scene.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 22:07:25 GMT
Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did. Zemo on the same level as Winter Soldier and Doc Ock? Yes. Easily.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 22:07:52 GMT
Not true. Raimi's SM movies gave us 2 good (but not great) villains and 2 crappy villains. The TDK trilogy gave us 1 great villain, 2 decent villains and the rest were forgettable. The MCU has already given us at least 3 great villains and around 8 or so good to decent villains. The MCU, by virtue of having more movies, have resulted in giving us more crappy villains than either the TDK or Raimi trilogies but they've also given us a lot more good to great villains. But it is incorrect to say that their bar for villains is any worse than the two trilogies. We have different opinions here. All of this is pretty subjective. I don't think the MCU is full of bad villains. Most are actually just fine. I just personally want to see more villains get the treatment that Thanos and Loki received. I think they've missed an oppertunity to give their villains the same iconic adaptations that they've given their heroes. So do most other superhero films.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 22:09:23 GMT
Zemo on the same level as Winter Soldier and Doc Ock? Yes. Easily. Bucky's design (the hair, arm, mask ECT.) and his personal connection to Cap make him 100 times better a villain than Zemo.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 22:10:15 GMT
We have different opinions here. All of this is pretty subjective. I don't think the MCU is full of bad villains. Most are actually just fine. I just personally want to see more villains get the treatment that Thanos and Loki received. I think they've missed an oppertunity to give their villains the same iconic adaptations that they've given their heroes. So do most other superhero films. That's true. But still no excuse. And using it as an excuse validates my point.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 8, 2018 23:50:14 GMT
Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did. Zemo on the same level as Winter Soldier and Doc Ock? Who said that? Me? What a dumb idiot. Sorry, guess I wasn't paying attention here. Let's pretend that Zemo was deleted from that line.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Nov 9, 2018 5:01:49 GMT
We have different opinions here. All of this is pretty subjective. I don't think the MCU is full of bad villains. Most are actually just fine. I just personally want to see more villains get the treatment that Thanos and Loki received. I think they've missed an oppertunity to give their villains the same iconic adaptations that they've given their heroes. Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did. I agree with what I put in bold. But I actually think Scarecrow is wildly underrated. He's appeared in more live-action Batman films than the Joker. And he seems to be a constant annoyance to the Bat in the Nolan sequels and is played quite enjoyably by Cillian Murphy.
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Post by dazz on Nov 9, 2018 12:18:54 GMT
Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did. I agree with what I put in bold. But I actually think Scarecrow is wildly underrated. He's appeared in more live-action Batman films than the Joker. And he seems to be a constant annoyance to the Bat in the Nolan sequels and is played quite enjoyably by Cillian Murphy.
I dunno Scarecrow is ultimately just a lackey, in Begins he seems like a bigger deal until you realise he is literally a pawn of Ra's Al Gul, in the other two he just shows up to show up really, which seems more like it's just because Nolan likes the actor not because his character is needed at all or has any real significance, after Begins replace his character with any other Batman villain who can fit the scene and does it mean any less?
Scarecrow can be a great villain though, Nolan's version however isn't that great, not bad just not great, but then that's also the case for a lot of villains, or can be even more extreme, Bane as a character can be a fantastic villain but the 2 version we got ones a joke the other is a good villain just with some odd choices, but then so is Batman in the Nolan films.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 9, 2018 15:18:00 GMT
Though all of this is subjective, there is a pretty common consensus regarding these villains across general audiences and critics alike. Loki, Thanos, Joker (Ledger's) and Magneto are all at the top tier. Doesn't matter what you subjective opinion on this matter is, these 4 are generally considered (by both the general public and critics) to be at the top of the cbm villain food chain. Guys like Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow don't occupy that same tier. They'll belong to the same group as villains like Ego, Zemo, Winter Soldier, etc. If they're lucky they might be considered at Killmonger or Vulture level, but I doubt it. Bottomline is, the TDK and Raimi trilogy didn't raise the villain bar any higher than what the MCU did. I agree with what I put in bold. But I actually think Scarecrow is wildly underrated. He's appeared in more live-action Batman films than the Joker. And he seems to be a constant annoyance to the Bat in the Nolan sequels and is played quite enjoyably by Cillian Murphy.
Well I didn't say he was bad, the fact that I'm putting him in the same bracket as Green Goblin and Winter Soldier shows my regard. But he still isn't top tier like Joker or Loki. The best comparison is probably Klaue. Great villain, well acted, just never given enough focus our screentime.
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