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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 1:30:14 GMT
And you are also aware that the Mardarin was a no-win situation. Rewrite the character to remove any "insensitive" traits. You can't do that without ditching the character entirely.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 1:31:21 GMT
Darth Vader in the original Star Wars did not have that and yet he also is an iconic villain and better than all of Marvel's. Because of the era he originated in. Put him out today and he wouldn't be seen as all that revolutionary.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 1:40:34 GMT
Gruber is just another 2D villain who was played by an actor who made him seem like more. I don't really think you understand this whole thing. You don't seem to grasp what makes a good villain here at all. There's a reason why Hans Gruber is iconic and considered one of the best villains and why Kaecilius is considered a weak villain. That's polar opposites, therefore saying they are the same would automatically be wrong. If you can't see that then that's just your problem alone as everyone else can seem to see the reason why. A character doesn't need to be deep or have an extensive backstory to be a good villain. Darth Vader in the original Star Wars did not have that and yet he also is an iconic villain and better than all of Marvel's. Even The Terminator. He was a robot who didn't even have that many lines in the movie, played by an actor who isn't that great of an actor and yet he too is an iconic villain that is far better than any of Marvel's villains. Do you even understand why that is even considered? No, I understand. I understand better than you. Yes, because people appreciated what he was instead of whining about what he could be like modern audiences do. I'm not wrong and you're the one with a problem. The only reason you think Kaecilius is a weak villain is because he's an MCU villain. Make him the villain of a film outside of the series and you'd have nothing bad to say about him. Oh, so now Hans doesn't need to be deep t be a good villain? Last time I checked, you were whining about Marvel's villains not being deep. Start being consistent and stop talking down to me like I'm an idiot. Seriously, where the hell do you get off? I don't see any difference between Vader, the Terminator, and any of the Marvel villains.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Dec 2, 2017 1:50:29 GMT
Rewrite the character to remove any "insensitive" traits. You can't do that without ditching the character entirely. They already did that in Iron Man 3. They made him a white angry nerd. They took a lazy way out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 2:20:10 GMT
You can't do that without ditching the character entirely. They already did that in Iron Man 3. They made him a white angry nerd. They took a lazy way out. He's not really the Mardarin.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 2:20:51 GMT
You can't do that without ditching the character entirely. They already did that in Iron Man 3. They made him a white angry nerd. They took a lazy way out. Killian wasn't the Mandarin.
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Post by scabab on Dec 2, 2017 2:31:58 GMT
No, I understand. I understand better than you. Fast forward to... Which is exactly why you don't understand. There's no need for me to waste more of my time on this. Once again Darth Vader, Hans Gruber and The Terminator are iconic and classic movie villains, ranked amongst the very best of all time. The Marvel villains often being criticized for being weak. That you can't even comprehend why that is, is a problem for you alone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 2:38:07 GMT
No, I understand. I understand better than you. Fast forward to... Which is exactly why you don't understand. There's no need for me to waste more of my time on this. Once again Darth Vader, Hans Gruber and The Terminator are iconic and classic movie villains, ranked amongst the very best of all time. The Marvel villains often being criticized for being weak. That you can't even comprehend why that is, is a problem for you alone. No, I understand. Yes, they were groundbreaking 30 years ago. They wouldn't be today. Had they premiered in the MCU you'd be whining about their lack of depth because films like the X-Men series trained you to believe giving the villain a history in Nazi-occupied Germany automatically makes them a great villain. No, I comprehend why they're iconic villains. They were groundbreaking in their time, but not today. The one with a problem is you.
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Post by scabab on Dec 2, 2017 2:38:45 GMT
Darth Vader in the original Star Wars did not have that and yet he also is an iconic villain and better than all of Marvel's. Because of the era he originated in. Put him out today and he wouldn't be seen as all that revolutionary.[/quote] Again a weak and irrelevant argument that doesn't really even make much sense because if these characters hadn't existed in the first place then who could even say what the standard of villains would be like in today's era. At the very least, Darth Vader was considered a fantastic villain for his own era. Only Loki can really compare to that in this era.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 2:40:01 GMT
Darth Vader, Hans Gruber and The Terminator are iconic and classic movie villains, Due tot he time they came from and the standards being different. Because MCU made movies that were about the hero first and foremost instead of the villain, whereas the usual method was to do the opposite.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 2:40:49 GMT
At the very least, Darth Vader was considered a fantastic villain for his own era. Only Loki can really compare to that in this era. He became a fantastic villain with Empire and ROTJ, if he'd just been in Star Wars he'd be seen as visually cool but nothing more.
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Post by scabab on Dec 2, 2017 2:50:10 GMT
They were groundbreaking in their time, but not today. The one with a problem is you. Well...no shit they wouldn't be groundbreaking today. I don't even know why this would need explaining but rather obviously, these characters being considered groundbreaking in the past has heavily influenced the way villains are done today. The villains of today are influenced by the villains of yesterday so if you took the villains from yesterday and had them today....then no of course they wouldn't be groundbreaking, that's not how that works. Indiana Jones was a groundbreaking hero. He would also not be groundbreaking today because he would be considered a wannabe Star Lord. In reality though Chris Pratt's influence for Star Lord was.... Indiana Jones. James Bond would not be groundbreaking because he would be another action hero like all the others, these others all mostly being influenced by....James Bond.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Dec 2, 2017 2:53:40 GMT
They already did that in Iron Man 3. They made him a white angry nerd. They took a lazy way out. Killian wasn't the Mandarin. He was intended to be until the backlash happen. That was the whole purpose of the one shot, Marvel to go "Lol just kidding! Real Mandarin still out there"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 2:55:41 GMT
They were groundbreaking in their time, but not today. The one with a problem is you. Well...no shit they wouldn't be groundbreaking today. I don't even know why this would need explaining but rather obviously, these characters being considered groundbreaking in the past has heavily influenced the way villains are done today. The villains of today are influenced by the villains of yesterday so if you took the villains from yesterday and had them today....then no of course they wouldn't be groundbreaking, that's not how that works. Indiana Jones was a groundbreaking hero. He would also not be groundbreaking today because he would be considered a wannabe Star Lord. In reality though Chris Pratt's influence for Star Lord was.... Indiana Jones. James Bond would not be groundbreaking because he would be another action hero like all the others, these others all mostly being influenced by....James Bond. You really are condescending. And you've done nothing to prove that Marvel has a villain problem.
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Post by scabab on Dec 2, 2017 3:09:19 GMT
You really are condescending. And you've done nothing to prove that Marvel has a villain problem. I don't need to prove it, it's known already. Your cheap and unnecessary insult is pretty telling as well. Sorry but what you said was just foolish really. Things from the past influence the future so you take that thing from the past and release it now then of course it wouldn't be groundbreaking. There isn't anything that is considered groundbreaking that would be groundbreaking in today, that's the entire point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 3:15:15 GMT
You really are condescending. And you've done nothing to prove that Marvel has a villain problem. I don't need to prove it, it's known already. Your cheap and unnecessary insult is pretty telling as well. Sorry but what you said was just foolish really. Things from the past influence the future so you take that thing from the past and release it now then of course it wouldn't be groundbreaking. There isn't anything that is considered groundbreaking that would be groundbreaking in today, that's the entire point. Translation: Scabab has no argument. Talking down to me again, huh? You are so smug on the topic of villains you can't even keep up the pretense of civility. You don't get to call me out for anything anymore. You think you're so much smarter than me. You're not. You're just some biased punk that's fooled himself into thinking he's smarter than everyone else. And yet, Hans Gruber, Vader, and Terminator are no better than Marvel's villains.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 3:21:15 GMT
You really are condescending. And you've done nothing to prove that Marvel has a villain problem. I don't need to prove it, it's known already. What's "known" is that the MCU refuses to go for the old and used up method of making the villain the star of the show the way DC always did.
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Post by scabab on Dec 2, 2017 3:52:47 GMT
Translation: Scabab has no argument. Ironic seeing as you replaced any argument with a petty insult. No, I don't take these things personal like you seem to do. Ok but this is exactly why I said you don't seem to comprehend the differences in these characters. When you're saying that Darth Vader, widely considered the best villain ever isn't any better than the Marvel villains that are routinely criticised then....yeah ok if you say so I suppose. What's "known" is that the MCU refuses to go for the old and used up method of making the villain the star of the show the way DC always did. That's not what's actually known at all, that's your own personal answer to what is known what with all the articles and criticism that have been made. This isn't about DC. Hans Gruber wasn't the star of Die Hard neither was Darth Vader the star of Star Wars but they still turned out iconic as did the heroes of the movie.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 4:01:31 GMT
Translation: Scabab has no argument. Ironic seeing as you replaced any argument with a petty insult. No, I don't take these things personal like you seem to do. Ok but this is exactly why I said you don't seem to comprehend the differences in these characters. When you're saying that Darth Vader, widely considered the best villain ever isn't any better than the Marvel villains that are routinely criticised then....yeah ok if you say so I suppose. What's "known" is that the MCU refuses to go for the old and used up method of making the villain the star of the show the way DC always did. That's not what's actually known at all, that's your own personal answer to what is known what with all the articles and criticism that have been made. This isn't about DC. Hans Gruber wasn't the star of Die Hard neither was Darth Vader the star of Star Wars but they still turned out iconic as did the heroes of the movie. You threw the first stone when you decided to look down your nose at me. Your words are laced with "you're an idiot." Of course I'm taking it personally. There's nothing to comprehend. And stop talking to me like I'm an idiot. The Marvel villains are only criticized because today's audiences are spoiled. They're good villains. No worse off than any other solid film antagonist. You expect these villains to be the star of the show, and when you see that they're not, you think there's a proboelm.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 2, 2017 4:28:43 GMT
That's not what's actually known at all, that's your own personal answer to what is known what with all the articles and criticism that have been made. This isn't about DC. Hans Gruber wasn't the star of Die Hard neither was Darth Vader the star of Star Wars but they still turned out iconic as did the heroes of the movie. Like we're arguing, Gruber wasn't much without Rickman (and in terms of depth, hasn't got much on MCU villains you keep bringing up) and Vader only became truly iconic when he stuck around for more than 1 movie. Vader's case is also helped by Luke Skywalker being a bland protagonist.
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