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Post by snsurone on Mar 6, 2017 18:30:11 GMT
One question has always haunted me when watching this movie: just what was the relationship between Ellen and her father?
It seemed to me to be more than ordinary father-daughter camaraderie.
In fact, I'm inclined to believe that they had an incestuous relationship and it was Ellen who Instigated it!
During the climactic courtroom scene, it was revealed (within the limits of censorship) that her obsession was so strong that it destroyed her parents' marriage and left her father "without a soul to call his own."
Needless to say, after the father died, Ellen turned her warped passion to his look-alike, the equally weak Richard.
But this issue was never fully resolved, again due to the censorship of the time.
A fantastic film noir, BTW--even though it was in color.
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Post by teleadm on Mar 6, 2017 18:45:35 GMT
I haven't thought about it that way before. I thought it worked well in color. The most haunting scene as I remember, played out at a lake with a swimming boy and a row boat. I won't say more in case someone here hasn't seen this movie yet.
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Post by marshamae on Mar 6, 2017 19:35:41 GMT
I never thought it was censorship that limited the relationship. I think the idea was that Ellen lived in her own head and only saw what she wanted to see. For every full blown incestuous relationship between father and daughter there are 50 more that have bad boundaries and subliminal desires that never are fully acted upon. I think Ellen took her father's affection to the extreme, making it a mutual obsession . The father had a seemingly normal relationship with his wife. Ellen simply ignored her into tge background, pretty typical behavior for a teenaged girl in the throes of Oedipal attachment.
It's when we see how far she goes to create the same attachment to her husband, and her frustration when the other people in his life won't fade away as obediently as her mother and cousin.
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Post by london777 on Mar 6, 2017 20:25:08 GMT
Perceptive post, marshamae.
I watched it recently and did not enjoy it as much as I expected. Partly because it was more lush melodrama than Film Noir, and partly because Cornel Wilde is such a wooden actor. I also saw "Road House" (1948) for the first time last month and he did his best to ruin that too. (Ida Lupino is great, though). He is not irritating or unlikable but he just cannot act.
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Post by TheOriginalPinky on Mar 6, 2017 21:32:46 GMT
Perceptive post, marshamae. I watched it recently and did not enjoy it as much as I expected. Partly because it was more lush melodrama than Film Noir, and partly because Cornel Wilde is such a wooden actor. I also saw "Road House" (1948) for the first time last month and he did his best to ruin that too. (Ida Lupino is great, though). He is not irritating or unlikable but he just cannot act. |
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Post by maxwellperfect on Mar 6, 2017 22:47:02 GMT
I don't think I ever considered it getting to the point of actual physical incest, but it was an obsessive, possessive kind of relationship, no doubt. Interesting theory.
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Post by neurosturgeon on Mar 7, 2017 17:11:40 GMT
Gene Tierney managed to be the face of ultimate evil in both LHTH and in her treatment of Sophie in "The Razor's Edge." Her cold, calculating ways to get rid of those who were in the way of her obsessive love is chilling to watch.
If you ever have a chance to catch "Rage in Heaven," which predates LHTH, you will find many parallels of obsessive love, but with a male lead. Based on a book by James Hilton.
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Post by snsurone on Mar 7, 2017 17:32:25 GMT
marshamae, I'm not so sure that Mr. Berent did have a good relationship with his wife.
He would frequently go on camping and fishing trips with Ellen, and sometimes Ruth, but Mrs. Berent never accompanied them.
Also, Ellen and her father had previously visited with Glenn and Louise in New Mexico, but the first (and only) time her mother came there was for Mr. Berent's funeral.
And did you notice that it was Ellen who scattered the ashes, and not her mother?
It appears that Mrs. Berent disliked both her husband and her daughter!
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Post by marshamae on Mar 7, 2017 21:14:53 GMT
I thought about that. I agree that Ellen was successful at pushing her mother and cousin back. My thought is that Ellen magnified the importance of the time she spent with her father, ignoring any time he spent with his wife. When she was at school ,at night...there was plenty of time for Berent and his wife to be together that Ellen simply discounted because in her mind, She was the important one.
I don't think there is any sure way to know what the intention was. I'm familiar with skewed family dynamics like this and I don't see anything that definitely screams incest with full sexual involvement. Of course when movies in the classic era wanted to show this, they often got it wrong. In Tender Is The Night, Nicole did not have any of the hallmarks of incest survivors. But it's not like there are absolute rules either
So like most things, people are going to think what they wish.
I lean to the more general bad boundaries explanation, because it has broader implications. More people can see themselves in Ellen's cold and self- centered behavior if they don't have the excuse of incest- like " we'll of course she behaved badly. I m not like that . "
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 9, 2017 16:00:15 GMT
A film with some of the most beautiful images ever put on screen. This film can be enjoyed purely on a superficial level for the cinematography alone. Who wouldn't want to live in those cottages in the hills and the ones beside the lake and the sea? The first third of the film is a masterpiece. The director manages to create a sinister and mysterious mood with the help of the beautiful scenery and the enigmatic GENE TIERNEY.
But the rest of the film is a bit underwhelming thanks to some cheesy acting by both CORNEL WILDE and GENE TIERNEY. And the rest of the film lacks the control and mystery of the first third of the film. Too many things are made explicit while you wonder about the callousness of the characters (like why TIERNEY's family did not warn WILDE about her). The token court scene at the end is way too over the top and is plain awful. It is almost as if two different people directed the first 30 minutes and the rest of the film.
A sombre JEANNE CRAIN does lend some normalcy to the proceedings. But I recommend the films for the beautiful visuals alone. I don't know whether a film in technicolor has looked so good.
(7/10)
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Post by Doghouse6 on Mar 9, 2017 17:39:38 GMT
One question has always haunted me when watching this movie: just what was the relationship between Ellen and her father? It seemed to me to be more than ordinary father-daughter camaraderie. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that they had an incestuous relationship and it was Ellen who Instigated it! During the climactic courtroom scene, it was revealed (within the limits of censorship) that her obsession was so strong that it destroyed her parents' marriage and left her father "without a soul to call his own." Needless to say, after the father died, Ellen turned her warped passion to his look-alike, the equally weak Richard. But this issue was never fully resolved, again due to the censorship of the time. A fantastic film noir, BTW--even though it was in color. Uhhhhh..... Is it just me or are there more and more odd views turning up these day for classic movies? Most of them suggest incest, but others suggest lesbianism/etc. Don't get me wrong: I'm not claiming that nothing happened in the "good old days," just that it probably didn't happen the way it's been revisioned. Notice how no one said a damn thing until the current support system(s) for gays/etc. sprouted. Pffffft! Revisioning history to paint it in gay colors for the sake of the popularity of the gay "movement" is silly. *yawn* That's not really the case. If it seems so to some, I daresay it has only to do with more open discussion of topics formerly considered "taboo" or simply not to be brought up "in polite society." But such discussions, particularly of films made during the restrictive period in which those rules were enforced, have nevertheless always taken place, not only from the perfectly mature understanding of the existence of aspects of life not permitted to be portrayed but, I'd add, out of necessity due to those very restrictions allowing only subtle suggestion on the part of film makers, and requiring inference on the part of audiences. The most draconian Production Code Administration enforcement took place during the 20 years from '34 to '54 under that office's direction by Joseph Breen, loosening thereafter until its ultimate abolition in '68, and it could be argued that prohibitions of even the mention of topics of which adult audiences were well aware was at least as "silly." |
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Post by snsurone on Mar 10, 2017 0:50:01 GMT
Dog, I find your post quite disturbing.
Are you trying to tell us that you're against human rights for the LBGT people?
And their movement is "silly"?
Please clarify yourself.
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Post by snsurone on Mar 10, 2017 1:37:36 GMT
Dog, I find your post quite disturbing. Are you trying to tell us that you're against human rights for the LBGT people? And their movement is "silly"? Please clarify yourself. snsurone, I think Doghouse was defending you, and that your complaint is really with Eyeball. Double-check to see if I'm right. It's a little hard to tell sometimes with the formatting here, but I think I am. You're right, spidey. Please accept my sincere apology, dog. I remember your great posts on the old IMDb format, and am glad you're here. |
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Post by Doghouse6 on Mar 10, 2017 2:23:06 GMT
snsurone, I think Doghouse was defending you, and that your complaint is really with Eyeball. Double-check to see if I'm right. It's a little hard to tell sometimes with the formatting here, but I think I am. You're right, spidey. Please accept my sincere apology, dog. I remember your great posts on the old IMDb format, and am glad you're here. None necessary; no harm done. I enjoy being challenged, and was a bit disappointed to discover I wasn't really. Ah well, maybe next time. Anyway, it's good to have the old familiar faces (metaphorically speaking) close by, and thanks for the nice sentiment. |
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Post by london777 on Mar 10, 2017 11:39:18 GMT
It's a little hard to tell sometimes with the formatting here ... I find the way the board manages quotes very frustrating. Why can it not follow the same system as 95% of other boards, with which people are familiar? A disappointing post from Eyeball, who has contributed some interesting and thoughtful movie comments. |
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Post by snsurone on Mar 10, 2017 16:55:32 GMT
You're right, spidey. Please accept my sincere apology, dog. I remember your great posts on the old IMDb format, and am glad you're here. None necessary; no harm done. I enjoy being challenged, and was a bit disappointed to discover I wasn't really. Ah well, maybe next time. Anyway, it's good to have the old familiar faces (metaphorically speaking) close by, and thanks for the nice sentiment. "You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din." ;-) |
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Post by Doghouse6 on Mar 10, 2017 18:52:22 GMT
Dog, I find your post quite disturbing. Are you trying to tell us that you're against human rights for the LBGT people? And their movement is "silly"? Please clarify yourself. snsurone, I think Doghouse was defending you, and that your complaint is really with Eyeball. Double-check to see if I'm right. It's a little hard to tell sometimes with the formatting here, but I think I am. Just realized I neglected to thank you yesterday for interceding, spider. I appreciate the kindness. |
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Post by Lebowskidoo 🎄😷🎄 on Apr 12, 2017 0:55:07 GMT
Gene Tierney in big screen color of the 1940's, being all sinister and weirdly obsessive. What a fun movie, and more than a little disturbing. One of my favorites.
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Post by wmcclain on Apr 12, 2017 1:06:55 GMT
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 12, 2017 1:14:38 GMT
Although Film Noir is typically thought of as a B&W exercise, no studio was more successfully able than 20th-Fox to translate the richness of three-strip Technicolor to the moods of that genre. Niagara is another great example. |
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