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Post by politicidal on Dec 9, 2017 18:58:11 GMT
The neck snap thing didn't bother me tbh. However, I'll concede this was one of my few gripes with Man of Steel only because was that this whole scene was overkill (sorry). He already destroyed the World Engine and sent the Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zone. We were done here.
I remember a rumor from before its release that Zod was supposed to have just given up and have a breakdown once his ship was destroyed. Then Superman would have transported him to a moon for exile. Something like that I'd have preferred as it left room for sequels or a reappearance.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 9, 2017 19:21:08 GMT
At the end of Man of Steel. Or would that have been off limits, too? It's too much for him to kill someone trying to murder over 6 billion people, but if Zod was a Nazi would people have cared at all? Your thoughts? If they'd done it in a way where it was the usual "Villain does something to kill himself" type defeat audiences wouldn't have cared.
IE, Superman put his hands over Zod's eyes and this causes the heat vision to backfire and blow up his head.
Heck, SMII had Superman sadistically torture Zod before killing him. It's just that since the whole movie is done in a campy manner it somehow worked. MOS went for the "Grounded and Gritty" approach so that kind of whimsy wouldn't have worked.
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Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 9, 2017 19:31:15 GMT
He could've impaled one with a tiki torch!
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Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 9, 2017 19:39:04 GMT
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Dec 9, 2017 19:39:12 GMT
In today current political climate? They'll be some comments like "Geeze DC went full SJW with this movie!!!"
But if we're talking about the 2013 release, no one would have cared.
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Post by damngumby on Dec 9, 2017 20:50:59 GMT
I think it’s open season on Nazis, year round. No permit required.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 9, 2017 21:44:40 GMT
At the end of Man of Steel. Or would that have been off limits, too? It's too much for him to kill someone trying to murder over 6 billion people, but if Zod was a Nazi would people have cared at all? Your thoughts? I think the complaining came from 2 things:
A) That he killed at all. Not who he killed, or how, or why. But that he killed anyone at all in the first place. They couldn't get over Superman, of all characters, ever killing.
and
B) That they felt the movie sucked anyway. If the movie had been awesome to them they might have come around to seeing that moment as what it was meant to be: an example of how this version of Superman is a new, different, modern version, who will kill when forced too. But what with them thinking the movie sucked, it was just one more thing they could point too as "See? This is why it sucked!"
IMO Zod IS a Nazi, just a space CBM version, so no, it wouldn't have made a significant difference.
But the DCEU has been in a no-win situation from the get-go. It cant imitate Marvel movies without being accused of imitation, and it cant do anything different (like this) without people thinking that its too different. And yet one of the negative criticisms that Justice League got was that it was too Marvel-like! They're damned if they do and damned if they don't!
Frankly I don't know how anyone liked Wonder Woman at all with all the negativity DCEU gets on the reg.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 9, 2017 21:46:02 GMT
I think it’s open season on Nazis, year round. No permit required. And that's... a problem? |
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Post by damngumby on Dec 9, 2017 22:05:07 GMT
I think it’s open season on Nazis, year round. No permit required. And that's... a problem? Only if you’re a Nazis. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 9, 2017 22:05:57 GMT
I think the complaining came from 2 things: A) That he killed at all. Not who he killed, or how, or why. But that he killed anyone at all in the first place. They couldn't get over Superman, of all characters, ever killing. They were fine with it in SM2...when he did it in a campy way. This has the sting of painful truth to it. Well, let's be honest there were other elements they didn't like that would've been disliked regardless of it being grim and gritty or not. [/p][/quote] It WAS a fairly basic story, but had enjoyable characters and...well, I'll leave my booster talk out of this for now. |
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Post by ShadowSouL on Dec 9, 2017 22:15:37 GMT
Yeah, plus I hated how Supes obviously got a thrilling jolly hard-on from snapping Zod's neck.
Typical Kryptonian serial killer.
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Post by damngumby on Dec 9, 2017 22:24:13 GMT
I forget ... why did Superman snap Zods neck instead of just move him?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 15:43:27 GMT
I don't have a problem with that. If you're going to choose a philosophy to follow in life, choose a better one. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 15:51:33 GMT
I think the complaining came from 2 things: A) That he killed at all. Not who he killed, or how, or why. But that he killed anyone at all in the first place. They couldn't get over Superman, of all characters, ever killing. They were fine with it in SM2...when he did it in a campy way.
I get that, but lets be completely clear. We're not %100% sure that he DID kill them. I always interpreted that as that he imprisoned them in the Fortress of Solitude, or that he sent them back to the Phantom Zone. We don't actually see him ACTUALLY kill them and then see their dead bodies. They fall into a misty crevice. Its not 100% clear.
But as you say, even if they were killed, it was in a campy way, and that goes a long way towards taking the sting out of it. After all MCU characters have killed too. Iron Man did in the very first MCU movie. It happens in the modern movies. I don't see why this was so much bigger an issue.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 11, 2017 17:01:08 GMT
They were fine with it in SM2...when he did it in a campy way.
I get that, but lets be completely clear. We're not %100% sure that he DID kill them. I always interpreted that as that he imprisoned them in the Fortress of Solitude, or that he sent them back to the Phantom Zone. We don't actually see him ACTUALLY kill them and then see their dead bodies. They fall into a misty crevice. Its not 100% clear.
But as you say, even if they were killed, it was in a campy way, and that goes a long way towards taking the sting out of it. After all MCU characters have killed too. Iron Man did in the very first MCU movie. It happens in the modern movies. I don't see why this was so much bigger an issue.
It's more acceptable for the MCU Heroes because none of them HAVE a no-killing code, and it makes sense given their characters.
Black Widow and Hawkeye are Covert Ops people, killing is their thing. Cap is a soldier, so him killing is his occupation. Tony used to be an Arms Dealer, so he's indirectly killed more people than the Joker and now he's at least doing it to people who, for lack of a better term, "Deserve" it. Thor is a Warrior Prince of a Warrior Culture so it's fine for him to kill same as Wonder Woman. Vision is the only one with a more pacifistic stance.
And yes, the way it's shown given how the film gives us plenty of unashamed comic-bookiness means we could easily take it as Superman imprisoning them or sending them back to the Zone. Not as conclusive as snapping a neck.
If we apply the level of "realism" to the Donner movies that we do to MOS, then Lois would've died of a broken neck from whiplash when Superman saved her from the Helicopter.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 19:32:05 GMT
I get that, but lets be completely clear. We're not %100% sure that he DID kill them. I always interpreted that as that he imprisoned them in the Fortress of Solitude, or that he sent them back to the Phantom Zone. We don't actually see him ACTUALLY kill them and then see their dead bodies. They fall into a misty crevice. Its not 100% clear.
But as you say, even if they were killed, it was in a campy way, and that goes a long way towards taking the sting out of it. After all MCU characters have killed too. Iron Man did in the very first MCU movie. It happens in the modern movies. I don't see why this was so much bigger an issue.
It's more acceptable for the MCU Heroes because none of them HAVE a no-killing code, and it makes sense given their characters.
Black Widow and Hawkeye are Covert Ops people, killing is their thing. Cap is a soldier, so him killing is his occupation. Tony used to be an Arms Dealer, so he's indirectly killed more people than the Joker and now he's at least doing it to people who, for lack of a better term, "Deserve" it. Thor is a Warrior Prince of a Warrior Culture so it's fine for him to kill same as Wonder Woman. Vision is the only one with a more pacifistic stance.
And yes, the way it's shown given how the film gives us plenty of unashamed comic-bookiness means we could easily take it as Superman imprisoning them or sending them back to the Zone. Not as conclusive as snapping a neck.
If we apply the level of "realism" to the Donner movies that we do to MOS, then Lois would've died of a broken neck from whiplash when Superman saved her from the Helicopter.
Perhaps it is more acceptable for the MCU heroes to kill... though as a kid I remember that the "no kill" code applied to ALL super-heroes, Marvel or DC. Cap for example never killed anyone. And Tony should have learned his lesson if he feels guilty about having been a weapons maker/dealer. Thor and Wonder Woman are warriors, sure, but again, they usually beat people up and that was enough, as they're both compassionate towards life. All this killing stuff is rather modern.
And I think that's what Snyder was trying to do in MOS and BvS. He was trying to take both Superman and Batman out of that somewhat outdated notion that a hero cant kill. And for whatever reason people minded it more when it was the DCEU characters as opposed to the MCU characters. I don't think the criticism is completely unfair, but I don't think its completely fair either. Its a little more stacked AGAINST DCEU than it is MCU.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 11, 2017 19:32:43 GMT
At the end of Man of Steel. Or would that have been off limits, too? It's too much for him to kill someone trying to murder over 6 billion people, but if Zod was a Nazi would people have cared at all? Your thoughts? Why would he kill him? He'd just take him to jail right? |
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 11, 2017 22:01:27 GMT
I have said it before...
Superman killing Zod when he has no other choice isn't inherently bad.
But Superman then not really showing much remorse for it is.
As with most things Zach Snyder does, there is a decent idea below everything that is executed terribly because he doesn't understand character or story.
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Post by MCDemuth on Dec 11, 2017 22:19:05 GMT
If we apply the level of "realism" to the Donner movies that we do to MOS, then Lois would've died of a broken neck from whiplash when Superman saved her from the Helicopter. No. I've heard this before, and this is wrong... Go watch the movie again, and pay attention to the motion of the building in the background, at moment he catches her... Superman flies up to Lois, and then lets himself start to fall, BEFORE he catches her, and then he slows them down, then they STOP, before flying upward again... The same thing happens when he catches the helicopter. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2017 0:12:14 GMT
I don't have a problem with the kill, per se, but in order for it to have the emotional impact they wanted, they needed to establish this wasn't his modus operandi. As it stands, there is nothing in Man of Steel that suggests he's above killing. So the emotion they obviously wanted us to feel in the wake of Zod's death just isn't there.
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