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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 12, 2017 1:14:58 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 17 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? I'm actually a massive Bond fan, but the MCU has passed that already. Not in sheer numbers yet, but that won't take much longer, and the time it took to catch it is neck breaking. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 12, 2017 1:23:00 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 22 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
I have seen those movies you're talking about actually. I don't think Star Wars is a bigger achievement, especially when it's now taking influence from the MCU. The same with LOTR, and I was a huge fan, but the MCU has clearly topped that in scope. The same with Harry Potter. I don't think the entire career of somebody is really what I'm talking about here, but yeah sure if we're going that route then I don't think it compares to Spielberg's entire career. I'm also not sure one film being socially significant trumps such a large scale project, but maybe, I'd be open to that idea.
It's not fanaticism, I would genuinely submit what they've accomplished as the most impressive achievement. Or let me put it this way, I'm not more impressed by anything else.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 12, 2017 1:30:08 GMT
We're not talking about better or worse, It's not an evaluation of acting and cinematography
We're talking about bigger accomplishment,
And TDK and Indiana Jones aren't bigger accomplishments.
How can you just ignore things like acting and cinematography when you're talking about cinematic achievements? That's like comparing squid without talking about tentacle length or ink viscosity! Oh I'm not ignoring them, it's just not the only factor, or even the primary one. The sheer size and scope and dedication to quality for what they've done isn't circumvented by a single great performance in another film, IMO. Basically the question isn't "are these the best films", because the answer to that would clearly be no. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 12, 2017 1:55:52 GMT
Sure, ArArArchStanton . Taking Hitchcock, for example, his entire oeuvre is widely acknowledged as a huge accomplishment that transformed film and established concepts of suspense in cinematic storytelling, not to mention massive transformations of cinematic technique. Casablanca and Citizen Kane, among others, are often considered the greatest movies ever made. I’d say those are far greater achievements than the Marvel series, like it though I do. I'd definitely consider Hitchcock, his career, and his influence, but I don't think I'm really talking about just stacking somebody's entire career. I'm talking about a single project, and the MCU is a single project.
Also I'm not simply talking about the greatest films of all time. Obviously there are greater films so if that was what I meant, I wouldn't be asking. Casablanca is an amazing movie, so is Citizen Kane, but they don't have the scale and sustained level of dedication and vision that it takes to complete a project like the MCU.
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Post by Salzmank on Dec 12, 2017 2:41:09 GMT
But, see, that’s not what you said, ArArArchStanton. You asked us what if there were a greater “cinematic achievement”–your words–in (I suppose) film history than the Marvel comic book movies. When others pointed out to you that of course there are, you switched it to evaluating influence and box office; when people pointed out to you that other series have been more successful in those criteria as well, now you’re talking about “a single project.” But that’s not what you wrote originally. You asked for a greater cinematic achievement. We gave them to you. Speaking of which, how can one possibly say that Casablanca or Kane don’t have the “dedication and vision” of a bunch of superhero flicks? Sorry if that sounds haughty, but I can assure you that there was a lot of effort put into these movies, as well as Hitchcock’s oeuvre, or any of the great directors’. I’m sorry, I really don’t see where you’re coming from here. Do you want greater cinematic achievement, or the thrill of marketing a successful “shared universe”? Because I’ll give it to you that Marvel has certainly succeeded on that second front, as much as I dislike the concept ipso facto. But a bunch of fun, goofy comic-book movies, with some sublime and some ridiculous, are certainly not the greatest cinematic achievement of our time. Dear God, no. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 12, 2017 3:06:53 GMT
But, see, that’s not what you said, ArArArchStanton . You asked us what if there were a greater “cinematic achievement”–your words–in (I suppose) film history than the Marvel comic book movies. When others pointed out to you that of course there are, you switched it to evaluating influence and box office; when people pointed out to you that other series have been more successful in those criteria as well, now you’re talking about “a single project.” But that’s not what you wrote originally. You asked for a greater cinematic achievement. We gave them to you. Speaking of which, how can one possibly say that Casablanca or Kane don’t have the “dedication and vision” of a bunch of superhero flicks? Sorry if that sounds haughty, but I can assure you that there was a lot of effort put into these movies, as well as Hitchcock’s oeuvre, or any of the great directors’. I’m sorry, I really don’t see where you’re coming from here. Do you want greater cinematic achievement, or the thrill of marketing a successful “shared universe”? Because I’ll give it to you that Marvel has certainly succeeded on that second front, as much as I dislike the concept ipso facto. But a bunch of fun, goofy comic-book movies, with some sublime and some ridiculous, are certainly not the greatest cinematic achievement of our time. Dear God, no. No I defined what I meant by achievement. I didn't switch anything.
Are you here just to nitpick the definition? Because that's not what I'm doing.
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Post by Salzmank on Dec 12, 2017 3:09:55 GMT
I give up. This is ridiculous.
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Post by miike80 on Dec 12, 2017 11:17:58 GMT
I give up. This is ridiculous. And pointless also, to be fair. I can't even read the title thread with a straight face |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 12, 2017 17:17:42 GMT
Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
That's a bit hipster. It's movies either way. "Fun entertainment" "Great cinematic achievements" Both just movies. That's all. So you make a good point about exaggerating the importance of these things but it didn't really support your argument. ...If you pick and choose amongst the examples I gave, that is. Taken altogether, hell yeah its supports my argument. And I don't know what hipster is. I'm not one. Peace!
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 12, 2017 17:20:29 GMT
Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
I really enjoyed this post! 😀 thumbsup |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 12, 2017 17:23:42 GMT
Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
I have seen those movies you're talking about actually. I don't think Star Wars is a bigger achievement, especially when it's now taking influence from the MCU. The same with LOTR, and I was a huge fan, but the MCU has clearly topped that in scope. The same with Harry Potter. I don't think the entire career of somebody is really what I'm talking about here, but yeah sure if we're going that route then I don't think it compares to Spielberg's entire career. I'm also not sure one film being socially significant trumps such a large scale project, but maybe, I'd be open to that idea.
It's not fanaticism, I would genuinely submit what they've accomplished as the most impressive achievement. Or let me put it this way, I'm not more impressed by anything else.
Ok, fair enough. The good news is there's more to come. I'll be there right along side you to enjoy it all. |
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Post by Salzmank on Dec 12, 2017 18:59:06 GMT
I give up. This is ridiculous. And pointless also, to be fair. I can't even read the title thread with a straight face I’ve never really understood “fandoms,” but this thread’s central question seems a bit extreme even for the most devoted fan. I’m just thinking, I really like the Universal monster series of the ‘30s and ‘40s, along with their ‘40s Sherlock Holmes series. In the first case, we may even say that there’s a “shared universe” (e.g., Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, House of Frankenstein, House of Dracula, Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein—all multiple monsters meeting and interacting with each other). More than that, there are lots of horror fans out there, who were there long before “MCU” and “DCU”—yet none of them would ever say that the Universal horror flicks were “the greatest cinematic achievement”; none would even pose the question. They just enjoy them as fun little movies, as I enjoy them—and as I enjoy the Marvel series. That’s all. Anyhoo, you’re right, arguing is pointless. Usually movie cult-followings shine brightly and then burn out. C’est tout. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 12, 2017 20:45:24 GMT
And pointless also, to be fair. I can't even read the title thread with a straight face I’ve never really understood “fandoms,” but this thread’s central question seems a bit extreme even for the most devoted fan. I’m just thinking, I really like the Universal monster series of the ‘30s and ‘40s, along with their ‘40s Sherlock Holmes series. In the first case, we may even say that there’s a “shared universe” (e.g., Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, House of Frankenstein, House of Dracula, Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein—all multiple monsters meeting and interacting with each other). More than that, there are lots of horror fans out there, who were there long before “MCU” and “DCU”—yet none of them would ever say that the Universal horror flicks were “the greatest cinematic achievement”; none would even pose the question. They just enjoy them as fun little movies, as I enjoy them—and as I enjoy the Marvel series. That’s all. Anyhoo, you’re right, arguing is pointless. Usually movie cult-followings shine brightly and then burn out. C’est tout. Well, to be completely clear, the MCU, if seen as one huge entire franchise of shared movies, is ONE of the greatest cinematic achievements. It is somewhat unprecedented to have this many movies in a row do well and have the impact they have had on pop culture and the industry at large. There's no doubt about that.
Its just not THE BIGGEST cinematic achievement. In order for it to be considered THE BIGGEST, IMO, it needs to have greater social and/or artistic value. It has to change the face of film language, or society at large, in some significant way other than sheer entertainment value. And there have been strings of movies, careers, and even individual films that have had greater impact on film and the film industry itself than MCU as a movement. Disney as a studio (before attaining Marvel) would rank higher on such a list. Star Wars/Lucasfilm would rank higher.
But there's no doubt that MCU is A significant industry juggernaut and will be remembered historically speaking.
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Post by Salzmank on Dec 12, 2017 21:00:08 GMT
I dunno, I think I’ll have to disagree with this too, lenlenlen1 . I’m on record as a critic of the very concept of the shared universe, but—my feelings to one side—I’ll give it to Marvel that they successfully made it work, at least for the box office (and many critics). That’s an accomplishment, yes. Also, their strategy for going about it (phases, dear God!) is a clever battle-plan. But one of the greatest cinematic accomplishments? In a world with classic Hollywood cinema? Of foreign-language classics? Of Hitchcock, Welles, Hawks, Lubitsch, Ford, Kurosawa, Chaplin, Keaton, Murnau, ad infinitum? Nah, not seeing it. These are fun, goofy movies about people who run around in tights and save the day. Yes, I enjoy them, but one of the greatest cinematic accomplishments? That’s like my saying that the Universal monsters represent one of cinema’s greatest accomplishments. Are there some great movies there? Oh, definitely; I love ‘em. But they’re fun and silly—light entertainment. Making grandiose claims for them wouldn’t do them justice. Perhaps one or two of them stand up as impressive films by any standard (say, Iron Man and Captain America for Marvel, or Bride of Frankenstein and The Wolf Man for Universal Monsters)—OK, fine, I’m willing to say that. But that’s quite a jump you are making, and an even greater jump that Arch is making. I think it’s great that you fellas enjoy them, and I do too, but “one of the greatest cinematic achievements”? Nope. Sorry. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 12, 2017 22:18:47 GMT
I dunno, I’d think I’ll have to disagree with this too, lenlenlen1 . I’m on record as a critic of the very concept of the shared universe, but—my feelings to one side—I’ll give it to Marvel that they successfully made it work. That’s an accomplishment, yes. Also, their strategy for going about it (phases, dear God!) is a clever war plan. But one of the greatest cinematic accomplishments? In a world with classic Hollywood cinema? Of foreign-language classics? Of Hitchcock, Welles, Hawks, Lubitsch, Ford, Kurosawa, Chaplin, Keaton, Murnau, ad infinitum? Nah, not seeing it. These are fun, goofy movies about people who run around in tights and save the day. Yes, I enjoy them, but one of the greatest cinematic accomplishments? That’s like my saying that the Universal monsters represent one of cinema’s greatest accomplishments. Are there some great movies there? Oh, definitely; I love ‘em. But they’re fun and silly—light entertainment. Making grandiose claims for them wouldn’t do them justice. Perhaps one or two of them stand up as impressive films by any standard (say, Iron Man and Captain America for Marvel, or Bride of Frankenstein and The Wolf Man for Universal Monsters)—OK, fine, I’m willing to say that. But that’s quite a jump you are making, and an even greater jump that Arch is making. I think it’s great that you fellas enjoy them, and I do too, but “one of the greatest cinematic achievements”? Nope. Sorry. Well I say that because of this: One day movie historians will look back at this as the era of comic book super hero movies, the way we look back at the era of Westerns and World War 2 movies. And in looking back it will have to be acknowledged that the undisputed top of the heap was MCU. No matter how close other franchises came (Sony's Spiderman, Fox's X-Men, DCEU) there is no doubt that the leader was MCU (unless things change drastically between now and the end of this era). |
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Post by Salzmank on Dec 12, 2017 22:46:57 GMT
OK, thanks, lenlenlen1. If I may say so, that’s a bit more nuanced than what you wrote before. Heading back to the Universal horror series, though (and apologies for having that as my big cross-reference, but it did what Marvel’s doing now): there were lots of horror films in the ‘30s and ‘40s. Paramount had some good ones ( Island of Lost Souls, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde), Columbia had some good ones ( Return of the Vampire, Fox had a few ( The Undying Monster), even old stalwarts MGM ( Mark of the Vampire) and RKO ( King Kong, The Most Dangerous Game, later the Lewton flicks). But the undisputed top of the heap was Universal. Dracula, Frankenstein, his creation, and his innumerable family-members ( Bride, Son, Ghost, etc.), the Invisible Man, the Mummy, the Wolf Man, etc., etc., etc. And they all had initial set-up films, several sequels, and crossovers in which they all, more or less, “teamed up.” And, y’know what, some film scholars write that there are some superb films in there— Bride of Frankenstein, for example, or The Wolf Man. (Neither would be in my top 5 favorites, but that’s neither here nor there.) But—and this is a major point—they’re not “one of the great cinematic achievements.” They’re good, very good, with some great films in there. But the whole thing is not one of the great achievements of our time. They’re sometimes silly, sometimes laughable, nearly always entertaining and fun—just like Marvel’s superheroes. And if it’s far too simplistic to claim the ‘30s as the age of the film monster, it’s equally simplistic to claim the 2010s as the age of the superhero. Marvel’s movies are less like westerns or WW2 flicks—those are entire genres!—than they are like the shared universe of the Uni monsters. Both are fun; neither is the great accomplishment of our time. (I could also drag in a discussion of auteurism and personal rather than corporate art—Jimmy Whale or Tod Browning vs. Jon Favreau—but that’s for another time.) And that, honestly, is really all I have to say. We’re kinda going around in circles already. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Dec 13, 2017 5:31:09 GMT
They're amongst the most revolutionary movies ever as Star Wars A New Hope along with Jaws kick started the summer blockbuster. Those two movies completely changed the way movies were made and released. It influenced an entire genre forever. Agreed. Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws and even Superman: The Movie are revolutionary movies that are far greater cinematic achievements than MCU.
Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws kick-started the summer blockbuster while Superman: The Movie kick-started the big-budget superhero movie genre. Without Superman: The Movie, there would be no big-budget superhero movies today and no MCU. Even MCU Dictator Kevin Feige has admitted that MCU copies most of their movies from Superman: The Movie.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Dec 13, 2017 9:28:10 GMT
They're amongst the most revolutionary movies ever as Star Wars A New Hope along with Jaws kick started the summer blockbuster. Those two movies completely changed the way movies were made and released. It influenced an entire genre forever. Agreed. Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws and even Superman: The Movie are revolutionary movies that are far greater cinematic achievements than MCU.
Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws kick-started the summer blockbuster while Superman: The Movie kick-started the big-budget superhero movie genre. Without Superman: The Movie, there would be no big-budget superhero movies today and no MCU. Even MCU Dictator Kevin Feige has admitted that MCU copies most of their movies from Superman: The Movie.
Is that a crime? Every superhero film since uses it as a basis? But a lot of them, including MCU films have improved on it. And repeating that Feige is a dictator doesn't make him one. You got a weird fucked up obsession with dictators. |
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Post by sostie on Dec 13, 2017 10:03:54 GMT
The thread title is a bit hyperbolic, though I would say the MCU has taken film franchises, shared universes etc to a whole new level
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Post by Salzmank on Dec 13, 2017 15:21:16 GMT
Agreed. Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws and even Superman: The Movie are revolutionary movies that are far greater cinematic achievements than MCU.
Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws kick-started the summer blockbuster while Superman: The Movie kick-started the big-budget superhero movie genre. Without Superman: The Movie, there would be no big-budget superhero movies today and no MCU. Even MCU Dictator Kevin Feige has admitted that MCU copies most of their movies from Superman: The Movie.
That’s a fair point as well, DC-Fan. Star Wars and Jaws seem more influential in the scheme of things, but then (to play devil’s advocate) they’ve also had more time to be considered “revolutionary.” I think Superman is indeed the major influence here, and I agree with you that it is a genuine “cinematic achievement.” (It’s also probably the only superhero flick I’d put on a list of my favorite movies.) The question is, however, one of definitions. Does Arch’s term refer to box office success? Popularity with audience? With critics? Influence on other movies? On cinema in general? The question is not only hyperbolic, as sostie wrote, but also so nebulous as to render it meaningless. Sure, Marvel has had achieved something in marketing this shared universe concept and making it work over a series of films. No one, myself included, is minimizing that. But the greatest cinematic achievement? Even a great (no - est about it) cinematic achievement, in a world of so many films, classic and otherwise? In a world of Hitchcock, Ford, Bergman… (Here I go again!) Nope. They’re fun comic book movies—that’s all. |
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