|
|
Post by Salzmank on Feb 6, 2019 15:52:05 GMT
^^The problem is, Grabthar's Hammer , that Archie’s topic was not about how impressive or how “impactful” on modern filmmaking the MCU is. The topic is about “best”: it’s about, in Archie’s opinion, nothing else being a greater cinematic achievement than the MCU. And I don’t think that’s a defensible argument. A brief comment on another point you raised: I think it depends on the people you’re talking to. As a classic movie buff, I often talk to people about Gone with the Wind, Citizen Kane, and Psycho, among other—far more often than I talk about the MCU, in fact. But Salzmank, that wasn't what the Op said;
"I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 22 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that?"
It’s exactly what the OP said: “I’d like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment.” An accomplishment accomplishes; if there’s none bigger, then it’s the biggest (i.e., greatest). No? He comes to the (predetermined) conclusion that there is, in fact, no bigger accomplishment. And we’re not talking in terms of shared universes but, rather, “cinematic endeavors.” He’s even clarified it on KW: “…yes, I would gladly make the case that it is the greatest cinematic achievement.” |
|
|
|
Post by Salzmank on Feb 6, 2019 15:53:36 GMT
^^The problem is, Grabthar's Hammer , that Archie’s topic was not about how impressive or how “impactful” on modern filmmaking the MCU is. The topic is about “best”: it’s about, in Archie’s opinion, nothing else being a greater cinematic achievement than the MCU. And I don’t think that’s a defensible argument. A brief comment on another point you raised: I think it depends on the people you’re talking to. As a classic movie buff, I often talk to people about Gone with the Wind, Citizen Kane, and Psycho, among other—far more often than I talk about the MCU, in fact. I talk about Alfred Hitchcock’s films with people probably more than any other film or franchise. MCU and DCEU is second, but I imagine that’s just because they are current and pretty much every few months there is something new to discuss. If the subject is strictly the “best of all time” than not even Star Wars would top my list, and basically there wouldn’t be any person who could give a “right” answer because it’d be subjective. My personal favorite would be Psycho or Rear Window. If we’re talking impactful or influential, that’s when Star Wars tops the list by far. I don’t think the MCU can be so entirely ignored though. It can’t be denied that every studio started making plans for a cinematic universe after The Avengers. As I noted above, its success certainly can’t be ignored or denied by any fair-minded observer, but that’s not Archie’s argument. His argument is that it’s the greatest cinematic achievement ever, which I again find an indefensible position. |
|
|
|
Post by sostie on Feb 6, 2019 16:37:03 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. But how many MCU films have sunk to the levels of Phantom Menace, Temple Of Doom, AvP etc (late response...not been in this thread for ages) |
|
|
|
Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Feb 6, 2019 18:12:02 GMT
I talk about Alfred Hitchcock’s films with people probably more than any other film or franchise. MCU and DCEU is second, but I imagine that’s just because they are current and pretty much every few months there is something new to discuss. If the subject is strictly the “best of all time” than not even Star Wars would top my list, and basically there wouldn’t be any person who could give a “right” answer because it’d be subjective. My personal favorite would be Psycho or Rear Window. If we’re talking impactful or influential, that’s when Star Wars tops the list by far. I don’t think the MCU can be so entirely ignored though. It can’t be denied that every studio started making plans for a cinematic universe after The Avengers. As I noted above, its success certainly can’t be ignored or denied by any fair-minded observer, but that’s not Archie’s argument. His argument is that it’s the greatest cinematic achievement ever, which I again find an indefensible position. Then what should even be the defining trait of a “cinematic achievement”? Seems too broad of a question. Would it be something classic and groundbreaking like Wizard of Oz or Citizen Kane? The movies that started the blockbuster like Star Wars and Jaws? Maybe Titanic, the first movie to cross a billion dollars. The rise of the indie scene marked by Clerks and Reservoir Dogs. X-Men and Spider-Man, the dawn of the modern superhero film. Iron Man and Avengers, the beginning of the cinematic universe concept. Hell maybe it’s TRON, The Matrix, or Nosferatu. If we’re talking all around everything, then I think the most defensible film would be Star Wars. Roger Ebert said it best... “Like "Birth of a Nation" and "Citizen Kane," “Star Wars'' was a technical watershed that influenced many of the movies that came after. These films have little in common, except for the way they came along at a crucial moment in cinema history, when new methods were ripe for synthesis. “Birth of a Nation'' brought together the developing language of shots and editing. “Citizen Kane'' married special effects, advanced sound, a new photographic style and a freedom from linear storytelling. “Star Wars'' melded a new generation of special effects with the high-energy action picture; it linked space opera and soap opera, fairy tales and legend, and packaged them as a wild visual ride. “Star Wars'' effectively brought to an end the golden era of early-1970s personal filmmaking and focused the industry on big-budget special-effects blockbusters, blasting off a trend we are still living through. But you can't blame it for what it did, you can only observe how well it did it. In one way or another all the big studios have been trying to make another “Star Wars'' ever since (pictures like "Raiders of the Lost Ark," "Jurassic Park" and "Independence Day" are its heirs). It located Hollywood's center of gravity at the intellectual and emotional level of a bright teenager.“ |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Sept 17, 2019 18:58:44 GMT
It's a bump!
|
|
|
|
Post by Hauntedknight87 on Sept 22, 2019 11:30:42 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Caesium137 on Sept 22, 2019 16:12:25 GMT
Is this thread for real?
|
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Sept 22, 2019 23:21:36 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Power Ranger on Sept 22, 2019 23:34:31 GMT
Welcome to ArArArchStanton 😂 |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 23, 2019 2:57:49 GMT
For sure. Of course you can name individually better films, and directors with longer histories, more influential works, and even a couple longer series But nothing has had the combined consistency of praise both critically and audiences, the overwhelming box office success, the global cultural event status, the level of detail, the variety, and the vision to both imagine this was even possible and to actually get it done. It’s the only sure thing in Hollywood, it’s influenced every major studio in a massive way, it built itself to earn the largest box office of all time, it has nearly a billion $ average, I pass multiple Captain America shirts every day, I’ve seen a kid scream for an Ant Man Pez dispenser and girls beg their moms to get them a magazine with Captain Marvel on the front. The sense of pride that came out for Black Panther, the litany of GOAT contenders and other records, and it’s not only exceeded but shattered all reasonable expectations It’s absolutely incredible. Nothing touches it IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by Caesium137 on Sept 23, 2019 9:38:10 GMT
For sure. Of course you can name individually better films, and directors with longer histories, more influential works, and even a couple longer series But nothing has had the combined consistency of praise both critically and audiences, the overwhelming box office success, the global cultural event status, the level of detail, the variety, and the vision to both imagine this was even possible and to actually get it done. It’s the only sure thing in Hollywood, it’s influenced every major studio in a massive way, it built itself to earn the largest box office of all time, it has nearly a billion $ average, I pass multiple Captain America shirts every day, I’ve seen a kid scream for an Ant Man Pez dispenser and girls beg their moms to get them a magazine with Captain Marvel on the front. The sense of pride that came out for Black Panther, the litany of GOAT contenders and other records, and it’s not only exceeded but shattered all reasonable expectations It’s absolutely incredible. Nothing touches it IMO.
I understand where you are coming from and indeed there is a lot of records the MCU has broken which probably won't be repeated by other brands. But I feel what you are describing is a highly positive cultural impact that an entertainment product has gifted society more so than anything else. Star Wars did this a few decades ago still has a strong grip on pop culture and influencing all generations today some 30 years later. If the MCU has a similar effect in 2040, only then it can be said to have superseded SW as longevity is an important attribute to attaining a legacy.
The MCUs biggest appeal is the intertwined nature of its multi-movie franchise. This is a recent phenomenon and so it's not possible to compare it to movies before 2008 really as the ''trilogy'' was the gold standard of the industry for blockbusters. So how can one make the argument that the MCU is a greater cinematic achievement than say 2001: A Space Oddesy? Nothing in your description can be directly compared. I could argue 2001 ASO is a greater cinematic achievement as it's still held in prestigious regard today amongst critics and film fans also having influenced many modern directors some 50 years later. This from only 1 movie and comparing it with a 20-string movie ensemble is illogical to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 23, 2019 15:21:03 GMT
For sure. Of course you can name individually better films, and directors with longer histories, more influential works, and even a couple longer series But nothing has had the combined consistency of praise both critically and audiences, the overwhelming box office success, the global cultural event status, the level of detail, the variety, and the vision to both imagine this was even possible and to actually get it done. It’s the only sure thing in Hollywood, it’s influenced every major studio in a massive way, it built itself to earn the largest box office of all time, it has nearly a billion $ average, I pass multiple Captain America shirts every day, I’ve seen a kid scream for an Ant Man Pez dispenser and girls beg their moms to get them a magazine with Captain Marvel on the front. The sense of pride that came out for Black Panther, the litany of GOAT contenders and other records, and it’s not only exceeded but shattered all reasonable expectations It’s absolutely incredible. Nothing touches it IMO.
I understand where you are coming from and indeed there is a lot of records the MCU has broken which probably won't be repeated by other brands. But I feel what you are describing is a highly positive cultural impact that an entertainment product has gifted society more so than anything else. Star Wars did this a few decades ago still has a strong grip on pop culture and influencing all generations today some 30 years later. If the MCU has a similar effect in 2040, only then it can be said to have superseded SW as longevity is an important attribute to attaining a legacy.
The MCUs biggest appeal is the intertwined nature of its multi-movie franchise. This is a recent phenomenon and so it's not possible to compare it to movies before 2008 really as the ''trilogy'' was the gold standard of the industry for blockbusters. So how can one make the argument that the MCU is a greater cinematic achievement than say 2001: A Space Oddesy? Nothing in your description can be directly compared. I could argue 2001 ASO is a greater cinematic achievement as it's still held in prestigious regard today amongst critics and film fans also having influenced many modern directors some 50 years later. This from only 1 movie and comparing it with a 20-string movie ensemble is illogical to do.
Nice response and well understood,
No doubt that star wars is massive and has had long lasting multi generational appeal. But it did not have the scope that Marvel has, or the consistency, and has struggled to maintain audience and critical approval with it's last 5 major films plus the spin offs. As big as it is, it hasn't been able to do what the MCU has.
2001 is definitely a great film, highly influential, no doubt. But again it doesn't have the scope or the mass appeal. Lots of films like The Last Emperor or The Good The Bad & The Ugly, The Godfather, etc, are wonderful films, all time greats and heavily influential, but I can't see how any 1 film, no matter how great, is a bigger achievement than coordinating a multi dozen film global phenomenon with dozens of top tier actors and directors all working together on a cohesive vision that maintains a high quality.
I do completely agree with your point that the book can't be closed until we see how it's viewed 20 or 40 years from now, but I disagree with the idea that since films didn't evolve beyond trilogies that somehow prevents the MCU from taking credit for doing so. That is what makes it the greatest achievement. It has gone beyond anything that's come before and accomplished something nobody thought possible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 15:32:13 GMT
The emoji movie and the dceu
|
|
|
|
Post by Caesium137 on Sept 23, 2019 17:39:05 GMT
I can't see how any 1 film, no matter how great, is a bigger achievement than coordinating a multi dozen film global phenomenon with dozens of top tier actors and directors all working together on a cohesive vision that maintains a high quality. It has got to be a pound for pound comparison. 2001 after fifty years is still conversed about in 2019 with regular cinema re-releases, endless analysis videos on youtube, being the focul subject in studies, being the direct inspiration for many professionals in the industry, aspiring or otherwise. Its cultural impact is also a testament to its cinematic achievement (from the recognizable score to the villain H.A.L). That is all coming from one movie and the fact it is only one rather than the MCUs 20 is where it can be, pound for pound, judged by a balanced view. But we will not know until a few decades later if the MCU was a generational flavor of the year fad or if it has the longevity to last the test of time after its died and do the things a film like 2001 has. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 23, 2019 18:27:31 GMT
I can't see how any 1 film, no matter how great, is a bigger achievement than coordinating a multi dozen film global phenomenon with dozens of top tier actors and directors all working together on a cohesive vision that maintains a high quality. It has got to be a pound for pound comparison. 2001 after fifty years is still conversed about in 2019 with regular cinema re-releases, endless analysis videos on youtube, being the focul subject in studies, being the direct inspiration for many professionals in the industry, aspiring or otherwise. Its cultural impact is also a testament to its cinematic achievement (from the recognizable score to the villain H.A.L). That is all coming from one movie and the fact it is only one rather than the MCUs 20 is where it can be, pound for pound, judged by a balanced view. But we will not know until a few decades later if the MCU was a generational flavor of the year fad or if it has the longevity to last the test of time after its died and do the things a film like 2001 has. But you aren’t providing a balance, you're just eliminating the points in the MCUs favor. I love 2001. It’s an amazing film and you’re completely right that it’s wildly influential. But that isn’t the only factor, and the fact remains that as influential as it has been for decades, it has never had the scope, scale, coordination of infrastructure, level of global appeal, box office, etc. You can’t just take those factors away and act like they don’t count. 2001 might be a richer influence Shawshank might be a better film Star Wars might have broader appeal Bond or Godzilla might be longer series Spielberg might be a more accomplished director But none of them succeed across the board in all factors with such consistency on a united project |
|
|
|
Post by ReyKahuka on Sept 23, 2019 18:55:45 GMT
Why would it be impossible to top Star Wars? Star Wars did things no one had ever seen before on film. It revolutionized sci-fi cinema. It also came at a time when there wasn't as much competition in entertainment media. Star Wars will remain the biggest draw for at least another generation, until the kids who grew up watching MCU films develop the strong nostalgic connection Star Wars fans have now. Then I think we could see a shift, especially if SW keeps rehashing the OT and Marvel keeps introducing new characters. I stand by this statement.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 23, 2019 19:01:19 GMT
Star Wars did things no one had ever seen before on film. It revolutionized sci-fi cinema. It also came at a time when there wasn't as much competition in entertainment media. Star Wars will remain the biggest draw for at least another generation, until the kids who grew up watching MCU films develop the strong nostalgic connection Star Wars fans have now. Then I think we could see a shift, especially if SW keeps rehashing the OT and Marvel keeps introducing new characters. I stand by this statement. I accept that, and I understand it, and Star Wars maybe still has the broader appeal, but it doesn’t have the consistency, or the box office, or much evidence that it can grow beyond the core story at this point, all factors where the MCU has shown an ability to surpass it. So I still say the MCU is a clearly larger, more ambitious, more well rounded and consistent accomplishment. There is also the factor that Star Wars did it in an era with little competition as you noted. The MCU has become this dominant in an era of vastly larger competition. And similar things have been done compared to Star Wars. But nothing is comparable to the MCU. The MCU far exceeds anything done before it in terms of scope and scale and they’ve maintained consistency and variety doing it. It’s not likely to ever be replicated. Star Wars is expanding because it has been influenced by the MCU. I think that pretty much says it all. |
|
|
|
Post by ReyKahuka on Sept 23, 2019 19:44:06 GMT
I stand by this statement. I accept that, and I understand it, and Star Wars maybe still has the broader appeal, but it doesn’t have the consistency, or the box office, or much evidence that it can grow beyond the core story at this point, all factors where the MCU has shown an ability to surpass it. So I still say the MCU is a clearly larger, more ambitious, more well rounded and consistent accomplishment. There is also the factor that Star Wars did it in an era with little competition as you noted. The MCU has become this dominant in an era of vastly larger competition. And similar things have been done compared to Star Wars. But nothing is comparable to the MCU. The MCU far exceeds anything done before it in terms of scope and scale and they’ve maintained consistency and variety doing it. It’s not likely to ever be replicated. Star Wars is expanding because it has been influenced by the MCU. I think that pretty much says it all. Time will tell if the box office follows every other form of media in which SW has expanded well beyond the core story. Star Wars not having competition is an argument for it, not against it. It was truly event cinema like nothing that came before it. The MCU has taken it to the next level, I completely agree; but whether it's a greater accomplishment in terms of its impact on pop culture in general is a question we can't answer for at least 20 years.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 23, 2019 19:53:09 GMT
I accept that, and I understand it, and Star Wars maybe still has the broader appeal, but it doesn’t have the consistency, or the box office, or much evidence that it can grow beyond the core story at this point, all factors where the MCU has shown an ability to surpass it. So I still say the MCU is a clearly larger, more ambitious, more well rounded and consistent accomplishment. There is also the factor that Star Wars did it in an era with little competition as you noted. The MCU has become this dominant in an era of vastly larger competition. And similar things have been done compared to Star Wars. But nothing is comparable to the MCU. The MCU far exceeds anything done before it in terms of scope and scale and they’ve maintained consistency and variety doing it. It’s not likely to ever be replicated. Star Wars is expanding because it has been influenced by the MCU. I think that pretty much says it all. Time will tell if the box office follows every other form of media in which SW has expanded well beyond the core story. Star Wars not having competition is an argument for it, not against it. It was truly event cinema like nothing that came before it. The MCU has taken it to the next level, I completely agree; but whether it's a greater accomplishment in terms of its impact on pop culture in general is a question we can't answer for at least 20 years. The question of accomplishment isn’t just about its impact on pop culture though. It’s about every factor. And the MCU is ahead on almost every one of those elements. Also, we don’t need to wait 20 years to realize that the MCU won’t have been forgotten, even if they never did another film. So assuming Star Wars at that time is considered a bigger brand name, the MCU is still the bigger cinematic achievement as it stands right now. I would disagree though that the era of less competition is an argument for Star Wars. Absolutely an outstanding accomplishment, but the MCU dominating in an era with significantly more competition including Star Wars is the bigger accomplishment. |
|
|
|
Post by ReyKahuka on Sept 23, 2019 20:13:32 GMT
Time will tell if the box office follows every other form of media in which SW has expanded well beyond the core story. Star Wars not having competition is an argument for it, not against it. It was truly event cinema like nothing that came before it. The MCU has taken it to the next level, I completely agree; but whether it's a greater accomplishment in terms of its impact on pop culture in general is a question we can't answer for at least 20 years. The question of accomplishment isn’t just about its impact on pop culture though. It’s about every factor. And the MCU is ahead on almost every one of those elements. Also, we don’t need to wait 20 years to realize that the MCU won’t have been forgotten, even if they never did another film. So assuming Star Wars at that time is considered a bigger brand name, the MCU is still the bigger accomplishment as it stands right now. I would disagree though that the era of less competition is an argument for Star Wars. Absolutely an outstanding accomplishment, but the MCU dominating in an era with significantly more competition including Star Wars is the bigger accomplishment. That's the bar? Not being forgotten? Star Wars still has an enormous following, to the point that they're creating video games, films, tv shows and entire sections of Disney World devoted to it. If Marvel is doing that 40+ years after the MCU debuted, you can make the argument it's a bigger achievement. It wasn't simply an era of less competition, it was an era of one brand captivating the audience like no other had before. I hate to break it to you, but DC, Star Wars and plenty of other franchises have put out billion dollar films in this era. Nobody commanded the pop culture marketplace like Star Wars in its heyday. Sure the MCU is making more money; because they're pumping out more films-- they have virtually endless source material to pull from. If Lucas had all the expanded universe material to pull from before he made his first film, and Disney dollars for production and marketing back in the day, how many Star Wars films do you think they would've made between 1977 and 1988? I love the MCU. I grew up on Star Wars movies and Marvel Comics so the current cinematic climate is an absolute win for me. The MCU has written its own chapter in box office achievement, I just don't think you can say it's 'the greatest cinematic achievement' when you don't know if its success is as sustainable as Star Wars success has been.
|
|
