Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 15:37:56 GMT
You forgot something in your OP:
They've managed to raise an army of braindead zombies.
|
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 13, 2017 19:18:53 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.?
Honestly, not many... If any.
|
|
|
|
Post by Salzmank on Dec 13, 2017 19:23:31 GMT
Another excellent point, Spooky Ghost Ackbar . I suppose Iron Man and The Avengers are the go-to responses (I cannot understand the love for the latter, but that’s a personal opinion), but those are two out of (what?) at least a dozen movies. It’s the project as a whole to which Arch was referring, which goes back to one of my main concerns about the shared universe: it undermines the individual motion picture, which should be at the center, not the periphery, of the project. |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 13, 2017 19:34:30 GMT
Another excellent point, Spooky Ghost Ackbar . I suppose Iron Man and The Avengers are the go-to responses (I cannot understand the love for the latter, but that’s a personal opinion), but those are two out of (what?) at least a dozen movies. It’s the project as a whole to which Arch was referring, which goes back to one of my main concern about the shared universe: it undermines the individual motion picture, which should be at the center, not the periphery, of the project. Yeah, I completely agree. The shared universe is an achievement but it's also a bit of a cheat. People are more willing to accept mediocre movies like Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 because they're episodes of a bigger saga. A lot of these individual movies taken on their own are not actually that spectacular- fun, yes, but not all time greats by any means. Which trilogy in this universe is as good as the Star Wars trilogy? Which individual movie is as amazing as Raiders? I thoroughly enjoy this saga. I really do. But the movies I mentioned above, and many others are examples of blockbuster action/adventures that reach a level higher than say Ant Man or Thor or Guardians of the Galaxy. I suppose the Cap sequels, the first Iron Man and The Avengers are close. But I still say they're not on the same level. |
|
|
|
Post by Salzmank on Dec 13, 2017 19:40:27 GMT
Spooky Ghost Ackbar said: That’s it! I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, but you’ve got the uncanny ability to recount my thoughts more succinctly than I ever could.  Just as television is becoming more like film, film is becoming more like television, and I don’t think that kind of movement will do justice to either medium. The scope of the former is not made for epics, the scope of the latter is not made for episodes. Marvel has accomplished something remarkable, yes (not “one of the greats,” however), but at what expense to cinema as a whole? Nowadays everyone waits around for after-credits sequences, just to see what will come next in a series—thus degrading the magic of watching shadows dance on a screen, as Mervyn LeRoy phrased it. The movie itself has only become a part of a larger whole, and what does that imply for quality?
|
|
|
|
Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 13, 2017 19:55:01 GMT
Well I say that because of this: One day movie historians will look back at this as the era of comic book super hero movies, the way we look back at the era of Westerns and World War 2 movies. Do I think a future Christopher Frayling is going to be writing volumes on the intricacies of the MCU characterization? Very unlikely. It just does not have the depth of the spaghetti western genre. As Variety said about the latest Star Wars movie: 'Though the series has always been self-aware enough to crack jokes, it now gives in to the same winking self-parody that is poisoning other franchises of late, from the Marvel movies to “Pirates of the Caribbean.” But it begs the question: If movies can’t take themselves seriously, why should audiences?' If critics of the age are seeing the films as non serious, imagine what a future historian will think. Probably write them off as banker-Wall Street designed movies with more money put into marketing than the productions themselves. |
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Dec 13, 2017 21:20:05 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. Iron Man 1, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War...off the top of my head. |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 13, 2017 21:21:28 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. Iron Man 1, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War...off the top of my head. Fair enough. I can accept that. But I personally I'd remove GotG. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 13, 2017 21:30:31 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. The entire collection can. That's the point. It's not about any one film, which is why saying other individual films are better doesn't override the point to me. |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 13, 2017 22:00:55 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. The entire collection can. That's the point. It's not about any one film, which is why saying other individual films are better doesn't override the point to me. Honestly, that's what doesn't make sense to me. Quantity over quality? And im not saying that the MCU is low quality, but it's sheer number of films alone doesn't make it the greatest achievement ever. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 13, 2017 22:08:14 GMT
The entire collection can. That's the point. It's not about any one film, which is why saying other individual films are better doesn't override the point to me. Honestly, that's what doesn't make sense to me. Quantity over quality? And im not saying that the MCU is low quality, but it's sheer number of films alone doesn't make it the greatest achievement ever. No no, it's not quantity over quality, don't mistake me.
It's very good quality in quantity. It's the combination, not the sheer number of films.
|
|
|
|
Post by damngumby on Dec 13, 2017 23:58:32 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. There is nothing particularly unique or remarkable about great movies. Really. It’s not hard to come up with a list of dozens of truly great movies. A great “cinematic achievement”, each one in its own right. The problem is that there’s so many, you might as well give them all Cinematic Achievement participation awards. Now, something like the MCU is quite unique. Few (if any) franchises can measure up to the high level of quality and consistency of the MCU. Not a RT rotten movie in the entire bunch, and most of them are in the 80s - 90’s. A real cinematic achievement has no equals. In this regard, the MCU is clearly at the top of the pyramid. ... and Superman 1978 didn’t “jumpstart” anything. It came, it went, and then the whole superhero thing pretty much died on the vine for 30 years. Any influence Superman might had had on the movie business was squandered by the decision to cash it all in on low budget crap sequels. If Marvel learned anything from the Superman debacle, they learned what not to do. Other than that, Superman was long dead and buried by the time the MCU started rolling. A two movie flicker of potential greatness, and then they went full DCEU. Never go full DCEU. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 14, 2017 0:01:04 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. There is nothing particularly unique or remarkable about great movies. Really. It’s not hard to come up with a list of dozens of truly great movies. A great “cinematic achievement”, each one in its own right. The problem is that there’s so many, you might as well give them all Cinematic Achievement participation awards. Now, something like the MCU is quite unique. Few (if any) franchises can measure up to the high level of quality and consistency of the MCU. Not a RT rotten movie in the entire bunch, and most of them are in the 80s - 90’s. A real cinematic achievement has no equals. In this regard, the MCU is clearly at the top of the pyramid. ... and Superman 1978 didn’t “jumpstart” anything. It came, it went, and then the whole superhero thing pretty much died on the vine for 30 years. Any influence Superman might had had on the movie business was squandered by the decision to cash it all in on low budget crap sequels. If Marvel learned anything from the Superman debacle, they learned what not to do. Other than that, Superman was long dead and buried by the time the MCU started rolling. A two movie flicker of potential greatness, and then they went full DCEU. Never go full DCEU. Well stated |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 14, 2017 0:31:04 GMT
How many individual MCU movies can be ranked alongside movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Jurassic Park, Alien, ECT.? Honestly, not many... If any. There is nothing particularly unique or remarkable about great movies. Really. It’s not hard to come up with a list of dozens of truly great movies. A great “cinematic achievement”, each one in its own right. The problem is that there’s so many, you might as well give them all Cinematic Achievement participation awards. Now, something like the MCU is quite unique. Few (if any) franchises can measure up to the high level of quality and consistency of the MCU. Not a RT rotten movie in the entire bunch, and most of them are in the 80s - 90’s. A real cinematic achievement has no equals. In this regard, the MCU is clearly at the top of the pyramid. ... and Superman 1978 didn’t “jumpstart” anything. It came, it went, and then the whole superhero thing pretty much died on the vine for 30 years. Any influence Superman might had had on the movie business was squandered by the decision to cash it all in on low budget crap sequels. If Marvel learned anything from the Superman debacle, they learned what not to do. Other than that, Superman was long dead and buried by the time the MCU started rolling. A two movie flicker of potential greatness, and then they went full DCEU. Never go full DCEU. There's nothing remarkable about great movies? Whaaaaaat? Then why are there so few of them? |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 14, 2017 1:18:18 GMT
There is nothing particularly unique or remarkable about great movies. Really. It’s not hard to come up with a list of dozens of truly great movies. A great “cinematic achievement”, each one in its own right. The problem is that there’s so many, you might as well give them all Cinematic Achievement participation awards. Now, something like the MCU is quite unique. Few (if any) franchises can measure up to the high level of quality and consistency of the MCU. Not a RT rotten movie in the entire bunch, and most of them are in the 80s - 90’s. A real cinematic achievement has no equals. In this regard, the MCU is clearly at the top of the pyramid. ... and Superman 1978 didn’t “jumpstart” anything. It came, it went, and then the whole superhero thing pretty much died on the vine for 30 years. Any influence Superman might had had on the movie business was squandered by the decision to cash it all in on low budget crap sequels. If Marvel learned anything from the Superman debacle, they learned what not to do. Other than that, Superman was long dead and buried by the time the MCU started rolling. A two movie flicker of potential greatness, and then they went full DCEU. Never go full DCEU. There's nothing remarkable about great movies? Whaaaaaat? Then why are there so few of them? I'd like to go back to my earlier clarification, this isn't a discussion on best movies. I'm not claiming the MCU are the best films ever made. Achievement doesn't only include quality, but the MCU has a highly quality and has sustained it for an unprecedented amount of time, enough to influence every major studio and other franchises listed in this thread, like Star Wars. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 14, 2017 1:22:00 GMT
Agreed. Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws and even Superman: The Movie are revolutionary movies that are far greater cinematic achievements than MCU.
Star Wars: A New Hope and Jaws kick-started the summer blockbuster while Superman: The Movie kick-started the big-budget superhero movie genre. Without Superman: The Movie, there would be no big-budget superhero movies today and no MCU. Even MCU Dictator Kevin Feige has admitted that MCU copies most of their movies from Superman: The Movie.
That’s a fair point as well, DC-Fan. Star Wars and Jaws seem more influential in the scheme of things, but then (to play devil’s advocate) they’ve also had more time to be considered “revolutionary.” I think Superman is indeed the major influence here, and I agree with you that it is a genuine “cinematic achievement.” (It’s also probably the only superhero flick I’d put on a list of my favorite movies.) The question is, however, one of definitions. Does Arch’s term refer to box office success? Popularity with audience? With critics? Influence on other movies? On cinema in general? The question is not only hyperbolic, as sostie wrote, but also so nebulous as to render it meaningless. Sure, Marvel has had achieved something in marketing this shared universe concept and making it work over a series of films. No one, myself included, is minimizing that. But the greatest cinematic achievement? Even a great (no - est about it) cinematic achievement, in a world of so many films, classic and otherwise? In a world of Hitchcock, Ford, Bergman… (Here I go again!) Nope. They’re fun comic book movies—that’s all. I'd just like to offer for consideration that it's the MCU influencing Star Wars. The MCU is why you're getting spinoff films and possible new franchises in that series. So if Star Wars is a great achievement,,,,
Also Jaws influence on other films is notable, but does not necessarily make the process of making the film a greater achievement. It's a part of the discussion, but having the greater influence doesn't necessarily make it the bigger accomplishment.
|
|
|
|
Post by damngumby on Dec 14, 2017 2:05:34 GMT
There's nothing remarkable about great movies? Whaaaaaat? Then why are there so few of them? That’s why there are so many of them. Comparatively speaking. I can list at least 20 great movies that stand head and shoulder over all others. An MCU equivalent? ... one, maybe two are in the conversation. |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 14, 2017 2:53:37 GMT
That’s a fair point as well, DC-Fan. Star Wars and Jaws seem more influential in the scheme of things, but then (to play devil’s advocate) they’ve also had more time to be considered “revolutionary.” I think Superman is indeed the major influence here, and I agree with you that it is a genuine “cinematic achievement.” (It’s also probably the only superhero flick I’d put on a list of my favorite movies.) The question is, however, one of definitions. Does Arch’s term refer to box office success? Popularity with audience? With critics? Influence on other movies? On cinema in general? The question is not only hyperbolic, as sostie wrote, but also so nebulous as to render it meaningless. Sure, Marvel has had achieved something in marketing this shared universe concept and making it work over a series of films. No one, myself included, is minimizing that. But the greatest cinematic achievement? Even a great (no - est about it) cinematic achievement, in a world of so many films, classic and otherwise? In a world of Hitchcock, Ford, Bergman… (Here I go again!) Nope. They’re fun comic book movies—that’s all. I'd just like to offer for consideration that it's the MCU influencing Star Wars. The MCU is why you're getting spinoff films and possible new franchises in that series. So if Star Wars is a great achievement,,,,
Also Jaws influence on other films is notable, but does not necessarily make the process of making the film a greater achievement. It's a part of the discussion, but having the greater influence doesn't necessarily make it the bigger accomplishment.
I would argue that the Star Wars anthology movies are a cheapening of the franchise, not an enhancement. |
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Ghost Ackbar on Dec 14, 2017 2:54:27 GMT
There's nothing remarkable about great movies? Whaaaaaat? Then why are there so few of them? That’s why there are so many of them. Comparatively speaking. I can list at least 20 great movies that stand head and shoulder over all others. An MCU equivalent? ... one, maybe two are in the conversation. Twenty great movies out of a century of cinema is a lot? |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 14, 2017 2:57:40 GMT
I'd just like to offer for consideration that it's the MCU influencing Star Wars. The MCU is why you're getting spinoff films and possible new franchises in that series. So if Star Wars is a great achievement,,,,
Also Jaws influence on other films is notable, but does not necessarily make the process of making the film a greater achievement. It's a part of the discussion, but having the greater influence doesn't necessarily make it the bigger accomplishment.
I would argue that the Star Wars anthology movies are a cheapening of the franchise, not an enhancement. oh I think they're a great idea. You have this series about an entire galaxy. Explore it. It's fantastic. I hope they do series about ancient sith, about everybody.
Rogue One might be my favorite Star Wars film. It's right there.
|
|
