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Post by simplemoviecommenter on Dec 14, 2017 3:47:27 GMT
The problem with this "learning thru Kylo's mind probe" argument is that it pisses all over the point of training in the other 2 trilogies. Why go through all of that youngling and padawan crap if all you have to do is mind probe each other and instantly transfer abilities and powers? Not to mention the very notion of this implicates Kylo as being one of the most inept Force users ever! At no other point in SW history has a trained Force user been vulnerable to Jedi mind tricks and probes. Less we not forget the famous line "It only works on the weak minded." Even in the (canon) Clone Wars animated series it took 3 Jedi masters to try to mind probe a non-Force user bounty hunter named Cad Bane. They just cared about reeling in Disney warrior princess fans by making Rey one, even though it doesn't harmonize with the pre-established lore. Anyone who takes the mythos of SW seriously could see that Rey was poorly written. Luke received cursory training at best from Obi Wan in the first film and yet in the next film, he's able to use telekinesis. If the training is such an important point when it comes to using the Force, why would he have that ability despite never being trained in it? Did Obi Wan teach him that as a ghost? Or was it just to show that he had natural potential and that the training was there to teach him control and refinement, and ultimately restraint? What I'm saying is that like Rey, he figured out a few tricks by himself after becoming aware of his ability to use the Force, but he required training to learn to control it. This doesn't piss on anything as it has been a theme present since the second film. Also, in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is able to read Luke's mind so it's not so far-fetched that they can probe the thoughts of other Jedi if the circumstances are right. ESB is 3 years later in which Luke had 3 years to practice and expand the Force offscreen. Maybe Ghost Kenobi did help out. Maybe Luke figured it out. But it took him 3 years. You think he sat on his butt and did nothing? No, not like Rey. Rey went through no training and she already used it like a master in 1 day. Darth Vader read Luke's mind because he's a veteran and Luke was under constant assault. Rey can suddenly overpower a mind probe while looking confused and mind probe back at Kylo Ren with no resistance. Which only further delegitimizes Kylo Ren as a threat. She can also Force Grab a lightsaber while looking surprised she did it at all while at the same time Kylo Ren was entirely focusing on also doing a Force Grab.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 14, 2017 4:06:59 GMT
The problem with this "learning thru Kylo's mind probe" argument is that it pisses all over the point of training in the other 2 trilogies. Why go through all of that youngling and padawan crap if all you have to do is mind probe each other and instantly transfer abilities and powers? Not to mention the very notion of this implicates Kylo as being one of the most inept Force users ever! At no other point in SW history has a trained Force user been vulnerable to Jedi mind tricks and probes. Less we not forget the famous line "It only works on the weak minded." Even in the (canon) Clone Wars animated series it took 3 Jedi masters to try to mind probe a non-Force user bounty hunter named Cad Bane. They just cared about reeling in Disney warrior princess fans by making Rey one, even though it doesn't harmonize with the pre-established lore. Anyone who takes the mythos of SW seriously could see that Rey was poorly written. Luke received cursory training at best from Obi Wan in the first film and yet in the next film, he's able to use telekinesis. If the training is such an important point when it comes to using the Force, why would he have that ability despite never being trained in it? Did Obi Wan teach him that as a ghost? Or was it just to show that he had natural potential and that the training was there to teach him control and refinement, and ultimately restraint? What I'm saying is that like Rey, he figured out a few tricks by himself after becoming aware of his ability to use the Force, but he required training to learn to control it. This doesn't piss on anything as it has been a theme present since the second film. Also, in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is able to read Luke's mind so it's not so far-fetched that they can probe the thoughts of other Jedi if the circumstances are right. Luke wasn't making attempts against trained Force users in those instances. And even the instance you referred to with Vader sensing Luke thinking about Leia, Vader was superior in training. Even Anakin consistently loss to people with superior training, even though his midichlorian count was higher than Yoda's. So again, it pisses all over the significance of training as to having any relevance or giving any advantage. Rey bested Kylo over and over again, and effortlessly. And then there's the confrontation between them in the forest. Kylo knocks her unconscious with the Force. Only for Rey to instantly wake up and outdo him in Force pulling the lightsaber. But as soon as the lightsaber battle starts, suddenly Rey's superior Force ability disappears. Even though a minute earlier she had no problem easily using the Force to best Kylo. This of course is done to create tension right before Rey shows off her MarySue connection to the Force. (Even though this scenario makes no sense). Then Kylo stopped to seduce her. This gives Rey a chance to meditate and go back to being invincible instant MarySue. Then Kylo stares at her for over 5 seconds without making a move to cripple her. Despite already seeing 2 or 3 times that once Rey uses the Force she instantly defeated him. Nevertheless he stands there knowing full well she's meditating on the Force. As if he expected something different to happen this time. It's just bad, contrived writing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 14:59:50 GMT
Sorry but no. Everyone is aware of the force but being aware of it and being able to use it are very different things. There is absolutely no reason for Rey to assume that she can. There is every reason for her to assume that she can because she already had by that point. Her hallucination was a manifestation of her latent ability to tap into the Force and she is then outright told she has a connection to Luke and Anakin, both of whom are also naturals at using the Force. It's spelled out by the film, man, what else can I say? Stop wasting your time. Some of these guys just don't get Star Wars. They failed to comprehend that younglings got plucked from the far reaches of the galaxy because they had already exhibited force powers. So I don't know if most of them are PT haters and just didn't watch it enough to fully comprehend what was going on, but for those of us paying attention, SW canon has always been clear: 1.) no training is required to use the Force and 2.) training is meant to hone capabilities, and, more importantly, to hone one's control over one's powers so that one doesn't kill a bunch of people through lack of self-control. They also seem to miss the fact that Rey lacked good control over her powers in TFA, succumbing to the dark side twice. But like I said, you're wasting your time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 15:08:13 GMT
Luke received cursory training at best from Obi Wan in the first film and yet in the next film, he's able to use telekinesis. If the training is such an important point when it comes to using the Force, why would he have that ability despite never being trained in it? Did Obi Wan teach him that as a ghost? Or was it just to show that he had natural potential and that the training was there to teach him control and refinement, and ultimately restraint? What I'm saying is that like Rey, he figured out a few tricks by himself after becoming aware of his ability to use the Force, but he required training to learn to control it. This doesn't piss on anything as it has been a theme present since the second film. Also, in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is able to read Luke's mind so it's not so far-fetched that they can probe the thoughts of other Jedi if the circumstances are right. ESB is 3 years later in which Luke had 3 years to practice and expand the Force offscreen. Maybe Ghost Kenobi did help out. Maybe Luke figured it out. But it took him 3 years. You think he sat on his butt and did nothing? No, not like Rey. Rey went through no training and she already used it like a master in 1 day. Darth Vader read Luke's mind because he's a veteran and Luke was under constant assault. Rey can suddenly overpower a mind probe while looking confused and mind probe back at Kylo Ren with no resistance. Which only further delegitimizes Kylo Ren as a threat. She can also Force Grab a lightsaber while looking surprised she did it at all while at the same time Kylo Ren was entirely focusing on also doing a Force Grab. I'm going to step in here and state that canon is clear on how Luke learned telekinesis. He did it on his own with no training from Ben or anyone else. Some things you do indeed learn on your own or there would be no "things" in existence to begin with. For Pete's sake folks, use some philosophic logic here. It did not take Luke long at all to be able to complete this task. It happened slightly the first time he tried and completely on his second attempt. It took him much longer to master the ability, however.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 16:14:25 GMT
Luke received cursory training at best from Obi Wan in the first film and yet in the next film, he's able to use telekinesis. If the training is such an important point when it comes to using the Force, why would he have that ability despite never being trained in it? Did Obi Wan teach him that as a ghost? Or was it just to show that he had natural potential and that the training was there to teach him control and refinement, and ultimately restraint? What I'm saying is that like Rey, he figured out a few tricks by himself after becoming aware of his ability to use the Force, but he required training to learn to control it. This doesn't piss on anything as it has been a theme present since the second film. Also, in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is able to read Luke's mind so it's not so far-fetched that they can probe the thoughts of other Jedi if the circumstances are right. Luke wasn't making attempts against trained Force users in those instances. Let's slow our rolls on assuming we know how much training Kylo has actually received because we don't. In fact, the only thing we know is that his training is incomplete. Sure, we're told he was a student of Luke's, but we're not told specifically how long. All we know is that he disappeared with Luke five years before TFA to receive Luke's training and that sometime afterwards, he joined the First Order. But we don't know exactly how long that was. Could have been the week after he left with Luke, could have been longer. We don't know. As far as I can remember, Anakin lost one duel in canon against Dooku. One. If I missed something, let me know, but one duel does not equate to the statement "consistently loss." It was one duel. (be careful responding to this statement...I forewarn you...It's a Trap!) Anger, fear aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. And I would argue that this very sequence helps explain the difference between pure Force ability (which, per canon, is directly tied to midi-chlorian count), which is random, uncontrolled and sometimes deadly, versus the control that training offers.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 14, 2017 16:40:18 GMT
Wow, this again. Love the stretches TFA apologists make and how they minimize the exposition regarding Luke's progression in the OT. Ridiculous, as always!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 14, 2017 17:09:42 GMT
Luke wasn't making attempts against trained Force users in those instances. Let's slow our rolls on assuming we know how much training Kylo has actually received because we don't. In fact, the only thing we know is that his training is incomplete. Sure, we're told he was a student of Luke's, but we're not told specifically how long. All we know is that he disappeared with Luke five years before TFA to receive Luke's training and that sometime afterwards, he joined the First Order. But we don't know exactly how long that was. Could have been the week after he left with Luke, could have been longer. We don't know. As far as I can remember, Anakin lost one duel in canon against Dooku. One. If I missed something, let me know, but one duel does not equate to the statement "consistently loss." It was one duel. (be careful responding to this statement...I forewarn you...It's a Trap!) Anakin lost to Dooku half a dozen more times in the Clone Wars animated series. (Yes it's canon). He also lost to ObiWan in ROTS. In all of those cases the biggest factor in him losing was more training and experience that his opponent had. In the case of Kylo it is completely meaningless. In fact it doesn't even by him time. He's instantly overwhelmed and defeated the second Rey starts using the Force against him. It sounds like you're saying Rey always used the Darkside. And that explains her victories. Even if that were the case it begs the question, how would someone with so much more experience at using the Darkside like Kylo be so quickly overwhelmed by someone who hardly even knows what the Darkside is? Why wouldn't Rey have a darker personality if she draws from the Darkside in situations of confrontation? Being a scavenger slave competing against thugs and being raised without a benevolent mentor or guardian would've been "fertile soil" to become a Darksider. I still say it makes little sense for Rey to wake up from a concussion and instantly turn to using the Force in something she hasn't done before... but has no compulsion to use the Force with a skill... (defending herself with a meelee weapon) ...that she's done half her life.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 19:03:53 GMT
Anakin lost to Dooku half a dozen more times in the Clone Wars animated series. (Yes it's canon). He also lost to ObiWan in ROTS. In all of those cases the biggest factor in him losing was more training and experience that his opponent had. I'm not aware of any losses to Dooku in the Clone Wars. I am aware of several instances in the Clone Wars where Anakin failed to subdue Dooku, but I can't recall any where Anakin was laid to waste, passed out on the floor, ready to be killed and in need of salvation like he was in AOTC. Stalemates don't count as losses. So do you have any examples where he actually lost? Furthermore, Anakin did not lose to Obi Wan in ROTS. I done told you to be careful with that one. Darth Vader lost to Obi Wan on Mustafar and there actually is a difference. I am and it does. Again, you assume too much. All that we know about Kylo's dark side training is that it is incomplete. You assume that he has a wealth of training from Snoke, when in fact, the information that actually was presented to us in canon (without assumption like you are making) indicates that he isn't very well trained at all. Dude, what can I tell ya? Watch the *&^#*&^ movie again!!! The Force Awakened within Rey during the vision scene on Takodana. Before then, she didn't use the Force, so your question makes no sense.
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 14, 2017 19:24:27 GMT
I love how they portrayed Kylo. He is not some unstoppable force, but an emotionally immature, yet powerful, guy. He cannot seem to control his emotions. I liked that he was vulnerable. At the same time, it annoyed me that he was defeated so easily by Rey. She had NO training. Sure, she might be more powerful than him and she was definitely a stronger person, physically and emotionally, than Luke was in A New Hope. Seriously, Luke was a whiny child in A New Hope. Therefore, it makes sense that she can figure out the Force faster than Luke, IMO. Still, Kylo should have beaten her. He has actually trained and understand his powers, for the most part. She shouldn't.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 19:30:18 GMT
I love how they portrayed Kylo. He is not some unstoppable force, but an emotionally immature, yet powerful, guy. He cannot seem to control his emotions. I liked that he was vulnerable. At the same time, it annoyed me that he was defeated so easily by Rey. She had NO training. Sure, she might be more powerful than him and she was definitely a stronger person, physically and emotionally, than Luke was in A New Hope. Seriously, Luke was a whiny child in A New Hope. Therefore, it makes sense that she can figure out the Force faster than Luke, IMO. Still, Kylo should have beaten her. He has actually trained and understand his powers, for the most part. She shouldn't. Just keep in mind that Vader should have easily disposed of Luke in TESB. The only reason Luke survived that encounter is because Vader did not want to kill him and took it easy on him because he had a purpose for him. The exact same thing happened in TFA! You think Kylo wants to be led by anyone? Like Vader, Kylo wants to kill his master more than anything. Rey was a potential means to that end. If Kylo had wanted to kill Rey in TFA, he would have.
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 14, 2017 19:55:17 GMT
I love how they portrayed Kylo. He is not some unstoppable force, but an emotionally immature, yet powerful, guy. He cannot seem to control his emotions. I liked that he was vulnerable. At the same time, it annoyed me that he was defeated so easily by Rey. She had NO training. Sure, she might be more powerful than him and she was definitely a stronger person, physically and emotionally, than Luke was in A New Hope. Seriously, Luke was a whiny child in A New Hope. Therefore, it makes sense that she can figure out the Force faster than Luke, IMO. Still, Kylo should have beaten her. He has actually trained and understand his powers, for the most part. She shouldn't. Just keep in mind that Vader should have easily disposed of Luke in TESB. The only reason Luke survived that encounter is because Vader did not want to kill him and took it easy on him because he had a purpose for him. The exact same thing happened in TFA! You think Kylo wants to be led by anyone? Like Vader, Kylo wants to kill his master more than anything. Rey was a potential means to that end. If Kylo had wanted to kill Rey in TFA, he would have. I agree on the Vader part, but completely disagree on the Kylo point. It appeared to me that Kylo was trying to win and got utterly destroyed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:04:52 GMT
Just keep in mind that Vader should have easily disposed of Luke in TESB. The only reason Luke survived that encounter is because Vader did not want to kill him and took it easy on him because he had a purpose for him. The exact same thing happened in TFA! You think Kylo wants to be led by anyone? Like Vader, Kylo wants to kill his master more than anything. Rey was a potential means to that end. If Kylo had wanted to kill Rey in TFA, he would have. I agree on the Vader part, but completely disagree on the Kylo point. It appeared to me that Kylo was trying to win and got utterly destroyed. Kylo was injured but I don’t see a good reason why he couldn’t destroy Finn in a second, a character he didn’t need unless one wants to claim that he didn’t want to upset Rey.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:05:42 GMT
Just keep in mind that Vader should have easily disposed of Luke in TESB. The only reason Luke survived that encounter is because Vader did not want to kill him and took it easy on him because he had a purpose for him. The exact same thing happened in TFA! You think Kylo wants to be led by anyone? Like Vader, Kylo wants to kill his master more than anything. Rey was a potential means to that end. If Kylo had wanted to kill Rey in TFA, he would have. I agree on the Vader part, but completely disagree on the Kylo point. It appeared to me that Kylo was trying to win and got utterly destroyed. Okay, well, go back and watch the scene where he has her overpowered and says, "you need a teacher." If he wanted to kill her, why would he have suggested working in concert with her? That scene was intended to call back the Luke/Vader scene in TESB.
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 14, 2017 20:09:21 GMT
I agree on the Vader part, but completely disagree on the Kylo point. It appeared to me that Kylo was trying to win and got utterly destroyed. Okay, well, go back and watch the scene where he has her overpowered and says, "you need a teacher." If he wanted to kill her, why would he have suggested working in concert with her? That scene was intended to call back the Luke/Vader scene in TESB. I can see that. I still feel she was a little too powerful right away, but I actually like The Force Awakens and love Kylo, so I am willing to overlook things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:22:27 GMT
Okay, well, go back and watch the scene where he has her overpowered and says, "you need a teacher." If he wanted to kill her, why would he have suggested working in concert with her? That scene was intended to call back the Luke/Vader scene in TESB. I can see that. I still feel she was a little too powerful right away, but I actually like The Force Awakens and love Kylo, so I am willing to overlook things. Oh, I agree with that. She was too over-powered too soon. So was Anakin, though. Chosen Ones are Chosen Ones and the rest of us are second-tier.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:25:09 GMT
Just keep in mind that Vader should have easily disposed of Luke in TESB. The only reason Luke survived that encounter is because Vader did not want to kill him and took it easy on him because he had a purpose for him. The exact same thing happened in TFA! You think Kylo wants to be led by anyone? Like Vader, Kylo wants to kill his master more than anything. Rey was a potential means to that end. If Kylo had wanted to kill Rey in TFA, he would have. I agree on the Vader part, but completely disagree on the Kylo point. It appeared to me that Kylo was trying to win and got utterly destroyed. He has good reason to be at a disadvantage either way. He was fighting after taking a shot to the gut with a bowcaster and bleeding out. I know he's able to use the force but he's not invincible and when these guys take damage it's implied that it's something to be taken seriously. They can't just force heal or regrow their limbs (at least not in the universe of the films) and when they're hit or knocked around, it's treated with some weight. So Kylo being seriously wounded is a logical reason why he wouldn't be at his fighting best. Furthermore, his character is depicted as highly emotional and prone to rage. Of course he's going to be a poor fighter because he has no finesse or patience. He's a bully child throwing a tantrum not a master swordsman. So Rey, who already knows how to fight, could probably get the upper hand on him by exploiting his weakness. I forget if that actually happened or not but it would also make sense. And yeah, if he wants to recruit her (I assume to do the rule of 2s thing and take out Snoke), he's going to hold back a bit as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:31:21 GMT
I agree on the Vader part, but completely disagree on the Kylo point. It appeared to me that Kylo was trying to win and got utterly destroyed Furthermore, his character is depicted as highly emotional and prone to rage. Of course he's going to be a poor fighter because he has no finesse or patience. He's a bully child throwing a tantrum not a master swordsman. You'd think this shit was obvious from watching the film, but some of these supposed die-hard big-time Star Wars fans sure didn't pick up on a lick of it.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 14, 2017 20:36:57 GMT
Furthermore, his character is depicted as highly emotional and prone to rage. Of course he's going to be a poor fighter because he has no finesse or patience. He's a bully child throwing a tantrum not a master swordsman. So Rey, who already knows how to fight, could probably get the upper hand on him by exploiting his weakness. I forget if that actually happened or not but it would also make sense. Watch the scene again. Show me where, prior to Rey powering up, that Kylo's motion was impaired, or that there was any hint he was injured as he's attacking her. If he was, and it was bothering him, the film doesn't portray that. If you ignore the scenes before, and just focus on the sequence where Kylo is backing Rey up against the growing crack in the planet, she was no match for him. Her post concussion power up/force download was enough to turn Kylo into a harmless buffoon who allows a complete novice to connect not once, but twice.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:44:40 GMT
Furthermore, his character is depicted as highly emotional and prone to rage. Of course he's going to be a poor fighter because he has no finesse or patience. He's a bully child throwing a tantrum not a master swordsman. You'd think this shit was obvious from watching the film, but some of these supposed die-hard big-time Star Wars fans sure didn't pick up on a lick of it. I've got no dog in the fight with the supposed die-hard big-time Star Wars fans but I do agree that the film does spell most of this out. It's one thing to argue that the movie beats came too fast and that it was detrimental to the story and characters, and that's a valid argument, but a lot of these criticisms are misguided because the film does answer many of these questions.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:47:10 GMT
Furthermore, his character is depicted as highly emotional and prone to rage. Of course he's going to be a poor fighter because he has no finesse or patience. He's a bully child throwing a tantrum not a master swordsman. So Rey, who already knows how to fight, could probably get the upper hand on him by exploiting his weakness. I forget if that actually happened or not but it would also make sense. Watch the scene again. Show me where, prior to Rey powering up, that Kylo's motion was impaired, or that there was any hint he was injured as he's attacking her. If he was, and it was bothering him, the film doesn't portray that. If you ignore the scenes before, and just focus on the sequence where Kylo is backing Rey up against the growing crack in the planet, she was no match for him. Her post concussion power up/force download was enough to turn Kylo into a harmless buffoon who allows a complete novice to connect not once, but twice. He's limping and cringing in pain and punching himself in the gut hole while he drips blood on the ground. It's clearly established that he's injured before he goes into the fight. If he was able to fight through it or run on adrenaline, good for him, he's still badly wounded.
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