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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:49:01 GMT
You'd think this shit was obvious from watching the film, but some of these supposed die-hard big-time Star Wars fans sure didn't pick up on a lick of it. I've got no dog in the fight with the supposed die-hard big-time Star Wars fans but I do agree that the film does spell most of this out. It's one thing to argue that the movie beats came too fast and that it was detrimental to the story and characters, and that's a valid argument, but a lot of these criticisms are misguided because the film does answer many of these questions. Thaaat's what I keep saying. But I've found a lot of them didn't understand the OT or the PT either. A lot of misinterpretations about the nature of the Force, especially. Some of the complaints about TFA are valid, including those about Rey. But most of them are founded on misinterpretation of the OT.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 20:51:08 GMT
I've got no dog in the fight with the supposed die-hard big-time Star Wars fans but I do agree that the film does spell most of this out. It's one thing to argue that the movie beats came too fast and that it was detrimental to the story and characters, and that's a valid argument, but a lot of these criticisms are misguided because the film does answer many of these questions. Thaaat's what I keep saying. But I've found a lot of them didn't understand the OT or the PT either. A lot of misinterpretations about the nature of the Force, especially. Some of the complaints about TFA are valid, including those about Rey. But most of them are founded on misinterpretation of the OT. Also, I keep hearing this complaint that Rey's quickness to Force-ability (which is generally exaggerated of course) leaves her no room for evolution, which I think is going to be proven wrong over the next two movies.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Dec 14, 2017 21:03:08 GMT
Watch the scene again. Show me where, prior to Rey powering up, that Kylo's motion was impaired, or that there was any hint he was injured as he's attacking her. If he was, and it was bothering him, the film doesn't portray that. If you ignore the scenes before, and just focus on the sequence where Kylo is backing Rey up against the growing crack in the planet, she was no match for him. Her post concussion power up/force download was enough to turn Kylo into a harmless buffoon who allows a complete novice to connect not once, but twice. He's limping and cringing in pain and punching himself in the gut hole while he drips blood on the ground. It's clearly established that he's injured before he goes into the fight. If he was able to fight through it or run on adrenaline, good for him, he's still badly wounded. here's the scene: Where is it conveyed, PRIOR to her power up, that he is injured?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 21:08:33 GMT
He's limping and cringing in pain and punching himself in the gut hole while he drips blood on the ground. It's clearly established that he's injured before he goes into the fight. If he was able to fight through it or run on adrenaline, good for him, he's still badly wounded. here's the scene: Where is it conveyed, PRIOR to her power up, that he is injured? Well, before this we see him get shot in the stomach. A little later, he comes up to Rey and Finn and he's hunched over and sweating profusely and then he starts punching his gut and the camera cuts to show blood on the ground at his feet. From this, I inferred that he was injured. Perhaps we needed a zoom in on his stomach and a flashback to him being shot to make it more obvious, or even better, have him just say "I may be horribly wounded from getting shot in the stomach earlier, but we're not done yet."
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Dec 14, 2017 21:12:06 GMT
here's the scene: Where is it conveyed, PRIOR to her power up, that he is injured? Well, before this we see him get shot in the stomach. A little later, he comes up to Rey and Finn and he's hunched over and sweating profusely and then he starts punching his gut and the camera cuts to show blood on the ground at his feet. From this, I inferred that he was injured. That wasn't my question. I asked where in this specific sequence, is he seemingly incapacitated or inhibited by his injury? If his injury is an issue, it should be obvious, but watch how he moves and how he easily backs the inexperienced Rey into a 'corner'. His skill>hers in spite of his 'injury'.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 21:38:48 GMT
Well, before this we see him get shot in the stomach. A little later, he comes up to Rey and Finn and he's hunched over and sweating profusely and then he starts punching his gut and the camera cuts to show blood on the ground at his feet. From this, I inferred that he was injured. That wasn't my question. I asked where in this specific sequence, is he seemingly incapacitated or inhibited by his injury? If his injury is an issue, it should be obvious, but watch how he moves and how he easily backs the unexperienced Rey into a 'corner'. His skill>hers in spite of his 'injury'. What on earth are you talking about, man? He's mostly just flailing around at her and trying to batter her into submission. There's nothing skillful about what he's doing. He's just swinging away to keep Rey on the defensive to prove his dominance and Rey is backing away because she doesn't know how good this guy is in a fight and is probably a little fuzzy from the concussion she got a few minutes before. As far as his injury goes, yes, he's trying to fight through it but he's still at a disadvantage because he's been injured multiple times and the actor even clues us in to the fact that he's injured by moving and looking like somebody that didn't get any sleep the night before the fight but is just so determined to be feared and respected that he's carrying on in spite of his wounds. He cannot accept the stain on his reputation and pride that failure would bring. The implication is that Kylo Ren is so focused on winning and confident in his own power (or he desperately needs to be) that he's taking risks he shouldn't and making foolish mistakes-- like fighting when he's in poor condition to fight and underestimating his opponents.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 14, 2017 21:38:49 GMT
Well, before this we see him get shot in the stomach. A little later, he comes up to Rey and Finn and he's hunched over and sweating profusely and then he starts punching his gut and the camera cuts to show blood on the ground at his feet. From this, I inferred that he was injured. That wasn't my question. I asked where in this specific sequence, is he seemingly incapacitated or inhibited by his injury? If his injury is an issue, it should be obvious, but watch how he moves and how he easily backs the unexperienced Rey into a 'corner'. His skill>hers in spite of his 'injury'. Exactly! And then Kylo just stands there for what seems like an eternity after Rey says "The Force?", knowing full well what she is doing. And already knowing the results of what happened when she channeled the Force. Right before the duel started he saw the results with her Force pulling the lightsaber! He could've done what Dooku did against ObiWan: graze her in the shoulder or pierce her in the leg to incapacitate her. But no! He just stands there waiting to take a butt kicking!
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Dec 14, 2017 21:43:46 GMT
That wasn't my question. I asked where in this specific sequence, is he seemingly incapacitated or inhibited by his injury? If his injury is an issue, it should be obvious, but watch how he moves and how he easily backs the unexperienced Rey into a 'corner'. His skill>hers in spite of his 'injury'. What on earth are you talking about, man? He's mostly just flailing around at her and trying to batter her into submission. There's nothing skillful about what he's doing. He's just swinging away to keep Rey on the defensive to prove his dominance and Rey is backing away because she doesn't know how good this guy is in a fight and is probably a little fuzzy from the concussion she got a few minutes before. As far as his injury goes, yes, he's trying to fight through it but he's still at a disadvantage because he's been injured multiple times and the actor even clues us in to the fact that he's injured by moving and looking like somebody that didn't get any sleep the night before the fight but is just so determined to be feared and respected that he's carrying on in spite of his wounds. He cannot accept the stain on his reputation and pride that failure would bring. The implication is that Kylo Ren is so focused on winning and confident in his own power (or he desperately needs to be) that he's taking risks he shouldn't and making foolish mistakes-- like fighting when he's in poor condition to fight and underestimating his opponents. She's untrained, he isn't. He was winning, she was losing. He estimated her skill properly, and bested her. What he underestimated was the ridiculousness of the screenwriters to give Rey a force power download that would simultaneously strip Kylo of the ability to properly defend himself, or use the powers he was just moments before exercising with ease. You're willfully seeing something different than is presented to you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 21:45:22 GMT
What on earth are you talking about, man? He's mostly just flailing around at her and trying to batter her into submission. There's nothing skillful about what he's doing. He's just swinging away to keep Rey on the defensive to prove his dominance and Rey is backing away because she doesn't know how good this guy is in a fight and is probably a little fuzzy from the concussion she got a few minutes before. As far as his injury goes, yes, he's trying to fight through it but he's still at a disadvantage because he's been injured multiple times and the actor even clues us in to the fact that he's injured by moving and looking like somebody that didn't get any sleep the night before the fight but is just so determined to be feared and respected that he's carrying on in spite of his wounds. He cannot accept the stain on his reputation and pride that failure would bring. The implication is that Kylo Ren is so focused on winning and confident in his own power (or he desperately needs to be) that he's taking risks he shouldn't and making foolish mistakes-- like fighting when he's in poor condition to fight and underestimating his opponents. Ok, you're willfully seeing something different than is presented to you, so I don't care to continue this anymore. She's untrained, he isn't. He was winning, she was losing. He estimated her skill properly, and bested her. What he underestimated was the ridiculousness of the screenwriters to give Rey a force power download that would simultaneously strip Kylo of the ability to properly defend himself, or use the powers he was not moments before he was exercising with ease. Alright... bye.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 14, 2017 21:51:42 GMT
That wasn't my question. I asked where in this specific sequence, is he seemingly incapacitated or inhibited by his injury? If his injury is an issue, it should be obvious, but watch how he moves and how he easily backs the unexperienced Rey into a 'corner'. His skill>hers in spite of his 'injury'. What on earth are you talking about, man? He's mostly just flailing around at her and trying to batter her into submission. There's nothing skillful about what he's doing. He's just swinging away to keep Rey on the defensive to prove his dominance and Rey is backing away because she doesn't know how good this guy is in a fight and is probably a little fuzzy from the concussion she got a few minutes before. As far as his injury goes, yes, he's trying to fight through it but he's still at a disadvantage because he's been injured multiple times and the actor even clues us in to the fact that he's injured by moving and looking like somebody that didn't get any sleep the night before the fight but is just so determined to be feared and respected that he's carrying on in spite of his wounds. He cannot accept the stain on his reputation and pride that failure would bring. The implication is that Kylo Ren is so focused on winning and confident in his own power (or he desperately needs to be) that he's taking risks he shouldn't and making foolish mistakes-- like fighting when he's in poor condition to fight and underestimating his opponents. Hmmmm... I guess this speaks to how people can see things differently. Watch the video again! Watch at mark 0:48 as Kylo starts a series of offensive attacks and parries against Rey. That's not flailing! After that he alternated between wild swings (or flailing) and controlled attacks. Then at mark 1:30 he pulled off this really cool move of locking sabres, parrying side-to-side and then grabbing Rey by the wrists. Paralyzing her attack and forcing her back into an isolated defensive position against the edge of the chasm! I've never seen that move before. And that's skill! Not flailing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 22:42:14 GMT
That wasn't my question. I asked where in this specific sequence, is he seemingly incapacitated or inhibited by his injury? If his injury is an issue, it should be obvious, but watch how he moves and how he easily backs the unexperienced Rey into a 'corner'. His skill>hers in spite of his 'injury'. What on earth are you talking about, man? He's mostly just flailing around at her and trying to batter her into submission. There's nothing skillful about what he's doing. He's just swinging away to keep Rey on the defensive to prove his dominance and Rey is backing away because she doesn't know how good this guy is in a fight and is probably a little fuzzy from the concussion she got a few minutes before. As far as his injury goes, yes, he's trying to fight through it but he's still at a disadvantage because he's been injured multiple times and the actor even clues us in to the fact that he's injured by moving and looking like somebody that didn't get any sleep the night before the fight but is just so determined to be feared and respected that he's carrying on in spite of his wounds. He cannot accept the stain on his reputation and pride that failure would bring. The implication is that Kylo Ren is so focused on winning and confident in his own power (or he desperately needs to be) that he's taking risks he shouldn't and making foolish mistakes-- like fighting when he's in poor condition to fight and underestimating his opponents. Dude, I've been trying to tell these guys those exact things for a couple years now. They won't listen. Anybody watching that movie knows that Kylo is poorly trained, that his fencing abilities are amateurish, that is physically wounded, emotionally wounded and that he greatly overestimates his powers. Ha, don't even get into the point about how - like Vader in TESB - he isn't even trying to kill his opponent as he feels he can use her in the future. Because that part apparently is totally over their heads. But they won't listen. I think they are so busy obsessing over Rey's character that they really failed to ingest what the filmmaker was trying to tell us about Kylo.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 22:46:12 GMT
Ok, you're willfully seeing something different than is presented to you, so I don't care to continue this anymore. She's untrained, he isn't. He was winning, she was losing. He estimated her skill properly, and bested her. What he underestimated was the ridiculousness of the screenwriters to give Rey a force power download that would simultaneously strip Kylo of the ability to properly defend himself, or use the powers he was not moments before he was exercising with ease. Alright... bye. Ha ha, I told you you were wasting your time. Ryboto is a myopic douche and nothing you can say will persuade him. These idiots gallivant Kylo's training around as if they have any idea how much training he has received. Per canon, could have been one week, could have been several years. We don't know. But these hard-heads act like they know for a fact that Kylo has received years and years of training. It's just simply not true. At least not yet.
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pete8680
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Post by pete8680 on Dec 15, 2017 6:13:33 GMT
Can we please go back 2 y TLJ sucks?
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