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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 20:22:19 GMT
tpfkar There is no necessity in evolution, because to say that it's necessary or unnecessary implies that there was some kind of plan or design. But yes, even a theist would have a hard time challenging the fact that a universe without any sentient life would be one in which there was no problem to solve. Christian theology's solution to this is that God created mankind so that they may know God (showing that they're hard pressed to justify why existence of sentient life is preferable to a universe without sentient life). Not having the superior option of choosing to have a blast / getting out would be  . Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their DivorceSo then you believe that the non-existent Martians are bemoaning their misfortune for not having the choice of whether to live or not? And then surely abortion would be highly immoral, because then that non-existent child will forever be burdened with the problem of not having that choice.
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 27, 2017 20:27:03 GMT
tpfkar So then you believe that the non-existent Martians are bemoaning their misfortune for not having the choice of whether to live or not? And then surely abortion would be highly immoral, because then that non-existent child will forever be burdened with the problem of not having that choice. I can see where your mind comes up with such things.  But nope, as a semi-normal non-psychopath I can see that life is good and the universe much better with the chances and joys it gives, especially since any mentally sound minimally capable person can easily opt out. Does Free Will Exist?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 21:33:10 GMT
tpfkar So then you believe that the non-existent Martians are bemoaning their misfortune for not having the choice of whether to live or not? And then surely abortion would be highly immoral, because then that non-existent child will forever be burdened with the problem of not having that choice. I can see where your mind comes up with such things.  But nope, as a semi-normal non-psychopath I can see that life is good and the universe much better with the chances and joys it gives, especially since any mentally sound minimally capable person can easily opt out. Does Free Will Exist?That can only imply that there was someone before sentient life existed to think 'well this is kind of boring...I want to go to Disneyland!'. Why did any of the non-existent concious beings at the origin of the universe need any chances? And why is the suffering of others a price worth paying for your pleasure? What makes you qualified to determine what's an acceptable degree of suffering for someone else to endure for your supposed benefit?
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 27, 2017 21:43:50 GMT
tpfkar I can see where your mind comes up with such things.  But nope, as a semi-normal non-psychopath I can see that life is good and the universe much better with the chances and joys it gives, especially since any mentally sound minimally capable person can easily opt out. Does Free Will Exist?That can only imply that there was someone before sentient life existed to think 'well this is kind of boring...I want to go to Disneyland!'. Why did any of the non-existent concious beings at the origin of the universe need any chances? And why is the suffering of others a price worth paying for your pleasure? What makes you qualified to determine what's an acceptable degree of suffering for someone else to endure for your supposed benefit? Only implies it in seriously borken heads.  "Need" is not the measure for existence nor for "good". We do exist, and it is good.  And there is no zero-sum so no suffering is required as any price, which is why we work continuously toward improving instead of the criminally insane thing of working toward world-nukings to "save us" and driving things back to raw savagery and exponentially-multiplied suffering. Not at all, because it's better for me to suffer than for a greater number of people to suffer.
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Post by goz on Dec 27, 2017 23:31:24 GMT
tpfkar I can see where your mind comes up with such things.  But nope, as a semi-normal non-psychopath I can see that life is good and the universe much better with the chances and joys it gives, especially since any mentally sound minimally capable person can easily opt out. Does Free Will Exist?That can only imply that there was someone before sentient life existed to think 'well this is kind of boring...I want to go to Disneyland!'. Why did any of the non-existent concious beings at the origin of the universe need any chances? And why is the suffering of others a price worth paying for your pleasure? What makes you qualified to determine what's an acceptable degree of suffering for someone else to endure for your supposed benefit? Thankfully there is no such equivalence nor equation of who, how and why some have pleasure and some have pain as most have an interesting mixture of both. Who are you to say this is intrinsically bad?
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 28, 2017 2:04:59 GMT
No, that's just a weakness of the language. Confusing linguistic connotations with ontology is silly. There's nothing about what natural selection is that suggests an intelligence choosing anything. "Selection" in this case just means "success in survival and reproduction." Neither of us can offer definitive proof to the other, so we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe there is an inherent intelligence underlying all nature. You can believe that all you want, but try to pick a better reason than the linguistic connotation behind "natural selection" when what "natural selection" actually means doesn't imply intelligence at all. There are much better arguments out there than that (none of them that really holds up to scrutiny, but certainly some that are much more difficult to debunk).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 4:58:44 GMT
That can only imply that there was someone before sentient life existed to think 'well this is kind of boring...I want to go to Disneyland!'. Why did any of the non-existent concious beings at the origin of the universe need any chances? And why is the suffering of others a price worth paying for your pleasure? What makes you qualified to determine what's an acceptable degree of suffering for someone else to endure for your supposed benefit? Thankfully there is no such equivalence nor equation of who, how and why some have pleasure and some have pain as most have an interesting mixture of both. Who are you to say this is intrinsically bad? By continuing the cycle of imposition, there is a guarantee that this unfairness will continue. I'm saying that it's bad because people don't have the choice to opt out of having their wellbeing gambled with in order to satisfy someone else's ends. Surely you would agree in more or less every other circumstance that one could think of that people shouldn't be free to gamble with the wellbeing of others without consent when it isn't necessary for the unconsenting party (as in trying to solve some kind of problem that already exists or will imminently exist for that party) that they do so.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 5:00:53 GMT
tpfkar That can only imply that there was someone before sentient life existed to think 'well this is kind of boring...I want to go to Disneyland!'. Why did any of the non-existent concious beings at the origin of the universe need any chances? And why is the suffering of others a price worth paying for your pleasure? What makes you qualified to determine what's an acceptable degree of suffering for someone else to endure for your supposed benefit? Only implies it in seriously borken heads.  "Need" is not the measure for existence nor for "good". We do exist, and it is good.  And there is no zero-sum so no suffering is required as any price, which is why we work continuously toward improving instead of the criminally insane thing of working toward world-nukings to "save us" and driving things back to raw savagery and exponentially-multiplied suffering. Not at all, because it's better for me to suffer than for a greater number of people to suffer. It is required; not by dictat but by the fact that it is unavoidable that the cycle of imposition will result in grievous harm to many of the unconsenting parties involved. It's a de facto requirement that many will have to suffer in order to bring about a purported 'benefit' to some that would never be missed anyway.
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 28, 2017 5:20:59 GMT
tpfkar Only implies it in seriously borken heads.  "Need" is not the measure for existence nor for "good". We do exist, and it is good.  And there is no zero-sum so no suffering is required as any price, which is why we work continuously toward improving instead of the criminally insane thing of working toward world-nukings to "save us" and driving things back to raw savagery and exponentially-multiplied suffering. Not at all, because it's better for me to suffer than for a greater number of people to suffer. It is required; not by dictat but by the fact that it is unavoidable that the cycle of imposition will result in grievous harm to many of the unconsenting parties involved. It's a de facto requirement that many will have to suffer in order to bring about a purported 'benefit' to some that would never be missed anyway. Not only is it not required, it's not imposition, not harm, and not unconsenting. There's no requirement that any have to suffer other than via tendentious definitions of "suffering" by the pathologically morbid that mislabel the normal thriving parts of life, and of course directly by way of mentally deranged psychopaths aspiring for leaders to commit mass murder and ramp the world in to leagues higher savagery and suffering. Things not being missed by the nonexistent or the nuked is irrelevant; the option of experience and enjoyment is all. Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their Divorce
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Post by goz on Dec 28, 2017 7:05:02 GMT
tpfkar Only implies it in seriously borken heads.  "Need" is not the measure for existence nor for "good". We do exist, and it is good.  And there is no zero-sum so no suffering is required as any price, which is why we work continuously toward improving instead of the criminally insane thing of working toward world-nukings to "save us" and driving things back to raw savagery and exponentially-multiplied suffering. Not at all, because it's better for me to suffer than for a greater number of people to suffer. It is required; not by dictat but by the fact that it is unavoidable that the cycle of imposition will result in grievous harm to many of the unconsenting parties involved. It's a de facto requirement that many will have to suffer in order to bring about a purported 'benefit' to some that would never be missed anyway. Who the fuck judges what is a good and bad life, who is suffering and who is not? YOU? Some/ in fact many people are just thrilled to have had a life at all! Animals and organisms don't do that, they just live. I believe that is enough, despite what your random circumstances are. Your pathetic argument suffers from anthropomorphism.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 7:10:14 GMT
It is required; not by dictat but by the fact that it is unavoidable that the cycle of imposition will result in grievous harm to many of the unconsenting parties involved. It's a de facto requirement that many will have to suffer in order to bring about a purported 'benefit' to some that would never be missed anyway. Who the fuck judges what is a good and bad life, who is suffering and who is not? YOU? Some/ in fact many people are just thrilled to have had a life at all! Animals and organisms don't do that, they just live. I believe that is enough, despite what your random circumstances are. Each person determines whether they are suffering, and they should have the right not to be burdened with problems as a means to someone else's end. They deserve the right not to be collateral damage. Someone's happiness at having life does not justify the cost that is imposed on someone else. Why should you get to determine how much of someone else's suffering is a price worth paying for your pleasure?
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2017 7:56:48 GMT
Neither of us can offer definitive proof to the other, so we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe there is an inherent intelligence underlying all nature. You can believe that all you want, but try to pick a better reason than the linguistic connotation behind "natural selection" when what "natural selection" actually means doesn't imply intelligence at all. There are much better arguments out there than that (none of them that really holds up to scrutiny, but certainly some that are much more difficult to debunk). So far I've never seen any evidence 'debunking' the idea that there is inherent intelligence in nature. If you have links to such evidence I'd be very interested in seeing it.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 28, 2017 8:21:08 GMT
You can believe that all you want, but try to pick a better reason than the linguistic connotation behind "natural selection" when what "natural selection" actually means doesn't imply intelligence at all. There are much better arguments out there than that (none of them that really holds up to scrutiny, but certainly some that are much more difficult to debunk). So far I've never seen any evidence 'debunking' the idea that there is inherent intelligence in nature. If you have links to such evidence I'd be very interested in seeing it. First, we were only talking about intelligence being involved in the theory of natural selection when that's clearly not what the theory says or suggests. Second, as for intelligent design in general, there are arguments for it but no real evidence. Certain arguments have been debunked, and that's really all that can be done when there's no scientific evidence for it to start with.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2017 8:36:28 GMT
So far I've never seen any evidence 'debunking' the idea that there is inherent intelligence in nature. If you have links to such evidence I'd be very interested in seeing it. First, we were only talking about intelligence being involved in the theory of natural selection when that's clearly not what the theory says or suggests. Perhaps other people have interpreted it in their own way.. I define 'selection' as it pertains to biology as follows: "A process in which environmental or genetic influences determine which types of organism thrive better than others, regarded as a factor in evolution." I believe that there is intelligence behind this process. It's not something that can be proven or unproven. It's simply a way of looking at the Universe that is not conventional. I would even call this intelligence 'God'.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 28, 2017 8:56:47 GMT
First, we were only talking about intelligence being involved in the theory of natural selection when that's clearly not what the theory says or suggests. Perhaps other people have interpreted it in their own way.. I define 'selection' as it pertains to biology as follows: "A process in which environmental or genetic influences determine which types of organism thrive better than others, regarded as a factor in evolution." I believe that there is intelligence behind this process. It's not something that can be proven or unproven. It's simply a way of looking at the Universe that is not conventional. I would even call this intelligence 'God'. You can violate Occam's Razor and add an un-evidenced hypothesis to the theory if you want, but nothing in the theory itself requires this interpretation to work. It would be like saying electricity works via Maxwell's equations and Lorentz force, but also invisible interdimensional beings are moving electrons around; what have you accomplished by adding the latter since it has no more explanatory (ie, predictive) power than the original theory? It's deeply irrational and anti-science.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 28, 2017 9:16:42 GMT
Perhaps other people have interpreted it in their own way.. I define 'selection' as it pertains to biology as follows: "A process in which environmental or genetic influences determine which types of organism thrive better than others, regarded as a factor in evolution." I believe that there is intelligence behind this process. It's not something that can be proven or unproven. It's simply a way of looking at the Universe that is not conventional. I would even call this intelligence 'God'. You can violate Occam's Razor and add an un-evidenced hypothesis to the theory if you want, Thanks, I think I will. Other people can see the world the way they want to.
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Post by goz on Dec 28, 2017 19:33:47 GMT
Who the fuck judges what is a good and bad life, who is suffering and who is not? YOU? Some/ in fact many people are just thrilled to have had a life at all! Animals and organisms don't do that, they just live. I believe that is enough, despite what your random circumstances are. Each person determines whether they are suffering, and they should have the right not to be burdened with problems as a means to someone else's end. They deserve the right not to be collateral damage. Someone's happiness at having life does not justify the cost that is imposed on someone else. Why should you get to determine how much of someone else's suffering is a price worth paying for your pleasure? Mic, someone else's suffering has nothing directly to do with me. We all just get life. I have said several times that there is no equivalence and you just choose to ignore it. You just successfully destroyed your own argument by saying that 'each person determines whether they are suffering' because although we can help each other, it is no-one else's business, not even the parents. We all have the choice to make the best of the life we have, no matter how dire. I love the term that Cupcakes gave you 'pathologically morbid'! lol So apt.
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Post by goz on Dec 28, 2017 19:38:01 GMT
Perhaps other people have interpreted it in their own way.. I define 'selection' as it pertains to biology as follows: "A process in which environmental or genetic influences determine which types of organism thrive better than others, regarded as a factor in evolution." I believe that there is intelligence behind this process. It's not something that can be proven or unproven. It's simply a way of looking at the Universe that is not conventional. I would even call this intelligence 'God'. You can violate Occam's Razor and add an un-evidenced hypothesis to the theory if you want, but nothing in the theory itself requires this interpretation to work. It would be like saying electricity works via Maxwell's equations and Lorentz force, but also invisible interdimensional beings are moving electrons around; what have you accomplished by adding the latter since it has no more explanatory (ie, predictive) power than the original theory? It's deeply irrational and anti-science. God works in mysterious ways so I am sure he could move a few electrons around a bit!
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Post by goz on Dec 28, 2017 19:47:13 GMT
tpfkar Only implies it in seriously borken heads.  "Need" is not the measure for existence nor for "good". We do exist, and it is good.  And there is no zero-sum so no suffering is required as any price, which is why we work continuously toward improving instead of the criminally insane thing of working toward world-nukings to "save us" and driving things back to raw savagery and exponentially-multiplied suffering. Not at all, because it's better for me to suffer than for a greater number of people to suffer. It is required; not by dictat but by the fact that it is unavoidable that the cycle of imposition will result in grievous harm to many of the unconsenting parties involved. It's a de facto requirement that many will have to suffer in order to bring about a purported 'benefit' to some that would never be missed anyway. There is no 'cycle of imposition'. There is life. There is no consent required. There is life. No-one suffers at the expense of others. It is the lottery of life. Each new life is an independent event. It is a shame you spend yours wishing you had never been born, let alone prosthelytising total birth control and annihilation of all living things. It is actually laughable when I think of it like that. Hitleresque, butt laughable.
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Post by cupcakes on Dec 29, 2017 11:30:25 GMT
tpfkar So far I've never seen any evidence 'debunking' the idea that there is inherent intelligence in nature. If you have links to such evidence I'd be very interested in seeing it. Pure childish wishful hoo-doo on the level of "Allah flew to seventh heaven on a winged horse". I believe
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