|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 12:05:15 GMT
tpfkar So far I've never seen any evidence 'debunking' the idea that there is inherent intelligence in nature. If you have links to such evidence I'd be very interested in seeing it. Pure childish wishful hoo-doo on the level of "Allah flew to seventh heaven on a winged horse".
I believeI'm going to guess that I hit a nerve and you're not going to be procreating anytime soon. Nature is too smart for that. |
|
|
|
Post by cupcakes on Dec 29, 2017 12:08:42 GMT
tpfkar First, we were only talking about intelligence being involved in the theory of natural selection when that's clearly not what the theory says or suggests. Perhaps other people have interpreted it in their own way.. I define 'selection' as it pertains to biology as follows: "A process in which environmental or genetic influences determine which types of organism thrive better than others, regarded as a factor in evolution." I believe that there is intelligence behind this process. It's not something that can be proven or unproven. It's simply a way of looking at the Universe that is not conventional. I would even call this intelligence 'God'. I believe in Santy.
watch this! |
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 29, 2017 12:28:02 GMT
You can violate Occam's Razor and add an un-evidenced hypothesis to the theory if you want, Other people can see the world the way they want to. Of course, but this says nothing about how likely it is that they're correct. In fact, given the sheer amount of ways one can see the world, probability would dictate the vast majority are wrong. That's where science and reason can help out in culling the wealth of BS from the truth. Abandoning them carries the risk that you'll almost certainly be wrong with whatever you come up with. |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 12:35:23 GMT
Other people can see the world the way they want to. Of course, but this says nothing about how likely it is that they're correct. In fact, given the sheer amount of ways one can see the world, probability would dictate the vast majority are wrong. That's where science and reason can help out in culling the wealth of BS from the truth. Abandoning them carries the risk that you'll almost certainly be wrong with whatever you come up with. IMO the way you see the world, that's how it is. Our consciousness is not only inseparable from physical reality, it transforms physical reality... (from my perspective of course). |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 13:04:09 GMT
Each person determines whether they are suffering, and they should have the right not to be burdened with problems as a means to someone else's end. They deserve the right not to be collateral damage. Someone's happiness at having life does not justify the cost that is imposed on someone else. Why should you get to determine how much of someone else's suffering is a price worth paying for your pleasure? Mic, someone else's suffering has nothing directly to do with me. We all just get life. I have said several times that there is no equivalence and you just choose to ignore it. You just successfully destroyed your own argument by saying that 'each person determines whether they are suffering' because although we can help each other, it is no-one else's business, not even the parents. We all have the choice to make the best of the life we have, no matter how dire. I love the term that Cupcakes gave you 'pathologically morbid'! lol So apt. I didn't mean that people choose whether or not they're suffering, and you know that.  I mean that suffering is experienced by each individual and nobody's judgement that 'their suffering isn't important because it's not happening to me' is more valid than the judgement of the person who is suffering. And if it was your child who was suffering (or your children's children, or their children, and so on down the line), then it would be related to you. And also if you purchase goods which were manufactured in sweatshop conditions (which you almost certainly do). Nobody can guarantee that their own child, let alone anyone in that family lineage, is going to find life worth the suffering, and therefore it isn't a judgement that anyone should have the right to make on anyone else's behalf. Especially when there is absolutely no possible downside to not being born. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 13:09:50 GMT
It is required; not by dictat but by the fact that it is unavoidable that the cycle of imposition will result in grievous harm to many of the unconsenting parties involved. It's a de facto requirement that many will have to suffer in order to bring about a purported 'benefit' to some that would never be missed anyway. There is no 'cycle of imposition'. There is life. There is no consent required. There is life. No-one suffers at the expense of others. It is the lottery of life. Each new life is an independent event. It is a shame you spend yours wishing you had never been born, let alone prosthelytising total birth control and annihilation of all living things. It is actually laughable when I think of it like that. Hitleresque, butt laughable. All lives are entangled with one another; and one person's fortune often does come directly at the expense of someone else's wellbeing. In any conceivable event there is no downside to not being born. Nobody ever regrets not being born, or feels that they've lost out on any experiences. Therefore giving life can never be for the benefit of the person who will receive it, and can only be a selfish act (at least to those who understand the fact that non-existent people aren't feeling deprived of life). You can only validate the lottery as someone who has won it. Without having had the worst possible numbers in the lottery (say, for example, you were kidnapped as a child and kept stored in a box in a psychopath's dungeon to be tortured), you do not have any grasp of what the costs are and therefore have no business in validating the cost that someone else will pay in order to keep the cycle going. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 13:12:56 GMT
Of course, but this says nothing about how likely it is that they're correct. In fact, given the sheer amount of ways one can see the world, probability would dictate the vast majority are wrong. That's where science and reason can help out in culling the wealth of BS from the truth. Abandoning them carries the risk that you'll almost certainly be wrong with whatever you come up with. IMO the way you see the world, that's how it is. Our consciousness is not only inseparable from physical reality, it transforms physical reality... (from my perspective of course). You've been reading Deepak Chopra, right? And watching this: I went through a phase similar to what you're going through. |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 13:19:10 GMT
IMO the way you see the world, that's how it is. Our consciousness is not only inseparable from physical reality, it transforms physical reality... (from my perspective of course). You've been reading Deepak Chopra, right? And watching this: I went through a phase similar to what you're going through. No. I have not watched that and I can't identify with anything that Chopra says. I tried to give him a chance, but he did not resonate with me. If I want Vedanta philosophy, I'll go to the source.. or as close as I can get without reading sanskrit. |
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 29, 2017 13:36:13 GMT
Of course, but this says nothing about how likely it is that they're correct. In fact, given the sheer amount of ways one can see the world, probability would dictate the vast majority are wrong. That's where science and reason can help out in culling the wealth of BS from the truth. Abandoning them carries the risk that you'll almost certainly be wrong with whatever you come up with. IMO the way you see the world, that's how it is. Our consciousness is not only inseparable from physical reality, it transforms physical reality... (from my perspective of course). So if you imagine gravity doesn't exist, if you imagine it so hard that you genuinely see the world as being gravity-less, you can step off a cliff and fly because your consciousness has changed reality, right? |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 13:37:06 GMT
IMO the way you see the world, that's how it is. Our consciousness is not only inseparable from physical reality, it transforms physical reality... (from my perspective of course). So if you imagine gravity doesn't exist, if you imagine it so hard that you genuinely see the world as being gravity-less, you can step off a cliff and fly because your consciousness has changed reality, right? If I could actually truly believe that, then yes. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 13:40:02 GMT
So if you imagine gravity doesn't exist, if you imagine it so hard that you genuinely see the world as being gravity-less, you can step off a cliff and fly because your consciousness has changed reality, right? If I could actually truly believe that, then yes. That's what they say in the movie that I posted the link to. So is your belief basically that 'with quantum physics, anything is possible'. Have you read any books by Fred Alan Wolf (who appears in the movie)? |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 13:53:29 GMT
If I could actually truly believe that, then yes. That's what they say in the movie that I posted the link to. So is your belief basically that 'with quantum physics, anything is possible'. Have you read any books by Fred Alan Wolf (who appears in the movie)? I didn't know who Alan Wolf was until you mentioned him. I just read his Wikipedia page and a list of 25 of his quotes.. yes I think I like the cut of his jib. Thank you. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 13:58:18 GMT
That's what they say in the movie that I posted the link to. So is your belief basically that 'with quantum physics, anything is possible'. Have you read any books by Fred Alan Wolf (who appears in the movie)? I didn't know who Alan Wolf was until you mentioned him. I just read his Wikipedia page and a list of 25 of his quotes.. yes I think I like the cut of his jib. Thank you. Cod-quantum physics related mysticism seems to be a well trodden path for those looking for meaning and significance in an apparently godless universe. |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 14:00:41 GMT
I didn't know who Alan Wolf was until you mentioned him. I just read his Wikipedia page and a list of 25 of his quotes.. yes I think I like the cut of his jib. Thank you. Cod-quantum physics related mysticism seems to be a well trodden path for those looking for meaning and significance in an apparently godless universe. Also, copious ingestion of psychedelics. I'm reading a book called 'Shamanic Graffiti: 100,000 Years of Drugs, 100 Years of Prohibition' -- very interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 29, 2017 14:06:12 GMT
So if you imagine gravity doesn't exist, if you imagine it so hard that you genuinely see the world as being gravity-less, you can step off a cliff and fly because your consciousness has changed reality, right? If I could actually truly believe that, then yes. History is full of people who believed wrong things, acted on them, and ended up with the opposite results of what they expected. When I was like 8 I thought I could be like Maverick (in the movie) and make the card I wanted appear when playing poker. It turned out to be the best way to make my lunch money magically disappear quickly. Now as a pro who plays the odds I make money from fools who think they can believe the next card into existence. |
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 29, 2017 14:07:44 GMT
I didn't know who Alan Wolf was until you mentioned him. I just read his Wikipedia page and a list of 25 of his quotes.. yes I think I like the cut of his jib. Thank you. -quantum physics... What's that? |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 14:07:48 GMT
If I could actually truly believe that, then yes. History is full of people who believed wrong things, acted on them, and ended up with the opposite results of what they expected. When I was like 8 I thought I could be like Maverick (in the movie) and make the card I wanted appear when playing poker. It turned out to be the best way to make my lunch money magically disappear quickly. Now as a pro who plays the odds I make money from fools who think they can believe the next card into existence. I understand, from your perspective my perspective is wrong. That's fine with me. |
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 29, 2017 14:09:39 GMT
History is full of people who believed wrong things, acted on them, and ended up with the opposite results of what they expected. When I was like 8 I thought I could be like Maverick (in the movie) and make the card I wanted appear when playing poker. It turned out to be the best way to make my lunch money magically disappear quickly. Now as a pro who plays the odds I make money from fools who think they can believe the next card into existence. I understand, from your perspective my perspective is wrong. That's fine with me. You could make my perspective your perspective by putting your perspective to the test. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 14:10:28 GMT
Cod is a slang term in the UK that means that it's a hoax, or trickery, or like the author I mentioned above, a fraud. |
|
|
|
Post by OldSamVimes on Dec 29, 2017 14:12:18 GMT
I understand, from your perspective my perspective is wrong. That's fine with me. You could make my perspective your perspective by putting your perspective to the test. Not sure how long I'd have to meditate to transcend gravity, but I don't have that kind of time to spend on you and it seems like that's the kind of proof you'll require. No offense, but I really don't mind if you don't share my perspective. |
|
