Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 20, 2017 6:10:50 GMT
He was put thru all that training and working out for The Force Awakens, obviously with the intention of being much more active in Last Jedi, yet we're teased a dual pretty much, but all Luke does is just dodge a few swings from Kylo. I was expecting a full dual akin to ROTJ. Mark was able to drop 50lbs while in his 60s just to return as Luke. And he clearly looks in good shape and everything at 66. I wouldn't expect him to be flipping and twirling with his lightsaber, but he could have easily done another dual against Kylo similar to ROTJ I feel bad for Mark Hamill too, pal. He had to endure: 1. Rage stroking the tits of a moof. 2. Morphing into a Star Wars version of Star Treks Mr. Scott - "I just can't do it, Captain!"3. Going from a guy who risks his life for his father, whose full of evil and has a glimmer of good in him - to a guy who prepares to kill his nephew, who's generally a good kid but he senses a stroke of evil in him. 4. Dying, not from heat exhaustion, but from hologram exhaustion. 5. Oh, and uhh, Mary Poppins Leia aka Carrie Poppins.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 20, 2017 14:43:34 GMT
Yes. But what he really died from (in a fantasy world) is finished business. Luke found himself weak and afraid and a failure. He left everyone, closed himself off from the Force and was living his life in solitude until he died. His pep talk with Yoda brought him back. He had that moment of closure in the end. Hopefully Abrams is smart enough to bring him back as a Force ghost so he can council Rey. I have NO interest in seeing him as a force ghost. NONE. For what? So he can apologize for being a dick when was alive? So he can be helpful now that he's dead? To offer assistance "from a certain point of view"? Bullshit.
Luke was a wasted opportunity in this movie. Just a tweak here and there would have made his death a great moment and I feel we were cheated of even that.
For Surly. It was a lesson learned story for Luke. Luke didn't learn from his weakness in life and Yoda told him that. Him "coming out of hiding" showed that he realized how wrong he was. Even in death he can pass on that knowledge that he didn't pass on in life. Wasn't a wasted opportunity because he showed the flaws. Hell, he even made the same mistake as Obi Wan who did have support. I think if they actually showed him how to train others instead of rushing his training so he could go up against Vader and the Emperor then he wouldn't have made the mistakes he did and fail miserably.
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 20, 2017 16:11:27 GMT
No. That they made Hamill get into shape and in the end didn't make him do anything that necessitated it. He could have been 50 pounds heavier and it wouldn't have made a difference for what he did in the film. It's not like they showed him actively still training while on the island. They showed that he was very active for survival (gathering food). And that was without using the Force. He gathered some milk and speared a fish. That's hardly "very active" and Rey herself commented how Luke wasn't exactly that busy.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 20, 2017 17:16:06 GMT
LOL!
Here's the thing: I could have lived with all of it (because I actually enjoyed the movie overall) if they had only given us Luke kicking some ass. And they even took that away when it turns out he's not even really there. ...And then he dies. They should have given us at least that. That's all I'm saying.
Shit, Laura Derns character went out better! She went out fighting and going down with the ship! That's a heroes death! Luke didn't burn out, he faded away...
That was funny on ThatGuy 's part to post that video. But I noticed he avoided addressing your points. It happens
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 20, 2017 17:28:33 GMT
I have NO interest in seeing him as a force ghost. NONE. For what? So he can apologize for being a dick when was alive? So he can be helpful now that he's dead? To offer assistance "from a certain point of view"? Bullshit.
Luke was a wasted opportunity in this movie. Just a tweak here and there would have made his death a great moment and I feel we were cheated of even that.
For Surly. It was a lesson learned story for Luke. Luke didn't learn from his weakness in life and Yoda told him that. Him "coming out of hiding" showed that he realized how wrong he was. Even in death he can pass on that knowledge that he didn't pass on in life. Wasn't a wasted opportunity because he showed the flaws. Hell, he even made the same mistake as Obi Wan who did have support. I think if they actually showed him how to train others instead of rushing his training so he could go up against Vader and the Emperor then he wouldn't have made the mistakes he did and fail miserably. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong. I'm saying that they could have done something a bit more interesting, heroic, and fan-fulfilling.
Lets make a comparison: Luke as an old man and Obi-Wan as an old man.
Luke: was whiny, filled with fear and regret and doubt and resentment, tons of negative emotions - which by the way is UN-Jedi like. Actually sounds kinda Sithy! He risked his life to save Vader form the dark side, but he couldn't do the same for Ben Solo/Kylo?
Obi-Wan: kept the faith, kept the lightsaber, guarded Luke (though from afar, granted) thus staying on mission, was helpful when he finally met Luke, taught Luke as much as he could, died for Luke. Even kicked a little ass before he went out.
THATS ALL I WANTED!
Rian Johnson didn't have to do it the same way Lucas did it with ObiWan either. He could have found his own way. But throw me a bone! Not only is Luke curmudgeonly but then he dies from extertion!? B. S. !.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 21, 2017 15:41:35 GMT
For Surly. It was a lesson learned story for Luke. Luke didn't learn from his weakness in life and Yoda told him that. Him "coming out of hiding" showed that he realized how wrong he was. Even in death he can pass on that knowledge that he didn't pass on in life. Wasn't a wasted opportunity because he showed the flaws. Hell, he even made the same mistake as Obi Wan who did have support. I think if they actually showed him how to train others instead of rushing his training so he could go up against Vader and the Emperor then he wouldn't have made the mistakes he did and fail miserably. I'm not saying your point of view is wrong. I'm saying that they could have done something a bit more interesting, heroic, and fan-fulfilling.
Lets make a comparison: Luke as an old man and Obi-Wan as an old man.
Luke: was whiny, filled with fear and regret and doubt and resentment, tons of negative emotions - which by the way is UN-Jedi like. Actually sounds kinda Sithy! He risked his life to save Vader form the dark side, but he couldn't do the same for Ben Solo/Kylo?
Obi-Wan: kept the faith, kept the lightsaber, guarded Luke (though from afar, granted) thus staying on mission, was helpful when he finally met Luke, taught Luke as much as he could, died for Luke. Even kicked a little ass before he went out.
THATS ALL I WANTED!
Rian Johnson didn't have to do it the same way Lucas did it with ObiWan either. He could have found his own way. But throw me a bone! Not only is Luke curmudgeonly but then he dies from extertion!? B. S. !.
Were you describing Luke in The Last Jedi or Luke in all the movies? Obi Wan had something to strive for. He had this baby to look after and train when he got older to go against the Empire. What did Luke have? Shame? He had no kid to train when he or she was older to go after Kylo and Snoke. Why would you want that? Because you want the old Luke again. Just be glad he gave you as much as he did. He could have had Luke go out like Yoda. Walk through that base, stand at the door and empty clothes drop to the floor. Exertion and fully using the Force after "obtaining" it again. It's like having no legs, then someone grows you some and you run a marathon 15 minutes later. That's not going to turn out right.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 21, 2017 15:46:23 GMT
They showed that he was very active for survival (gathering food). And that was without using the Force. He gathered some milk and speared a fish. That's hardly "very active" and Rey herself commented how Luke wasn't exactly that busy. For an old man (without the Force) going around an island. Pole vaulting over to the side of a mountain. Catching fish that he carried back. I mean, without the Force, how did that old man get that fish up? Did he pull it up strapping to his back on that 3 inches of ledge and pole vault back over? He had to be very active at that age to do all that.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 21, 2017 17:05:52 GMT
I'm not saying your point of view is wrong. I'm saying that they could have done something a bit more interesting, heroic, and fan-fulfilling.
Lets make a comparison: Luke as an old man and Obi-Wan as an old man.
Luke: was whiny, filled with fear and regret and doubt and resentment, tons of negative emotions - which by the way is UN-Jedi like. Actually sounds kinda Sithy! He risked his life to save Vader form the dark side, but he couldn't do the same for Ben Solo/Kylo?
Obi-Wan: kept the faith, kept the lightsaber, guarded Luke (though from afar, granted) thus staying on mission, was helpful when he finally met Luke, taught Luke as much as he could, died for Luke. Even kicked a little ass before he went out.
THATS ALL I WANTED!
Rian Johnson didn't have to do it the same way Lucas did it with ObiWan either. He could have found his own way. But throw me a bone! Not only is Luke curmudgeonly but then he dies from extertion!? B. S. !.
Were you describing Luke in The Last Jedi or Luke in all the movies? Obi Wan had something to strive for. He had this baby to look after and train when he got older to go against the Empire. What did Luke have? Shame? He had no kid to train when he or she was older to go after Kylo and Snoke. Why would you want that? Because you want the old Luke again. Just be glad he gave you as much as he did. He could have had Luke go out like Yoda. Walk through that base, stand at the door and empty clothes drop to the floor. Exertion and fully using the Force after "obtaining" it again. It's like having no legs, then someone grows you some and you run a marathon 15 minutes later. That's not going to turn out right. But if you're Usain Bolt your 15 minutes of running is going to be way better than mine because you're USAIN FUCKING BOLT! That man will always run better faster harder than any of us.
Still, I get what you're saying. I guess I just wanted something more.
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 21, 2017 21:49:54 GMT
He gathered some milk and speared a fish. That's hardly "very active" and Rey herself commented how Luke wasn't exactly that busy. For an old man (without the Force) going around an island. Pole vaulting over to the side of a mountain. Catching fish that he carried back. I mean, without the Force, how did that old man get that fish up? Did he pull it up strapping to his back on that 3 inches of ledge and pole vault back over? He had to be very active at that age to do all that. He didn't "pole vault" to the other side of the mountain. Pole vault implies that you used a pole to lift yourself up and catapult you over something. Luke simply used rode the pole like a lever to get from one side of the mountain to the other. No running, jumping or vaulting involved. And you don't know how he got that fish up since it wasn't shown. He could have had a basket down there that he just pulled up with a rope. Or were you assuming that an old man without the force is capable of lifting that entire gigantic pole up to the very end, getting the fish, then putting it back in? Because that's an even worse assumption. As for walking, walking a few kilometers a day is not enough to get you flat abs, especially not if you're that old. My main point stands: Hamill could have been 50 lbs. heavier and it wouldn't have looked out of place for his role.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 22:09:10 GMT
I felt bad for him that he had to portray Luke as waiting to die and not doing something about what happened.
From the point he started telling Rey about the Force, I was enthralled with Luke again and his portrayal of the character. His acting was awesome the entire film.
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agentsparky
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Post by agentsparky on Dec 22, 2017 0:34:43 GMT
They couldnt have a strong positive white male character (as I have said over and over). They have to fail. Even in the OT this was the message, but it was far more subtle. Lando was the successful action hero--he blew up a Death Star without the Force. Luke couldnt do it without the Force and Han shooting Vader in the back. Han needed to be rescued. Same with the Prequels. Mace Windu was the real hero, and two white guys had to betray him to defeat him. Obi Wan fails as a teacher and friend. What we are seeing is the Liberal agenda of the 60s reaching its zenith with strong black men and multiculturalism and women as leaders. And the Wall Street owners do not care because they have money-this isn't about making money--its about propaganda distribution. The movie is a vehicle transmitting propaganda. That is how Wall Street Disney sees it. Wedge was with Lando. Just saying. And Lando couldn't have done it without Han and his plan to get into the shield generator. Not only was he with Wedge but they both flew into the Death Star's core reactor. You can't miss from within.
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Post by darkpast on Dec 22, 2017 0:45:17 GMT
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Post by mcufan on Dec 22, 2017 9:20:01 GMT
I feel bad for him too... Only a couple million dollars richer, what a trooper...
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 22, 2017 13:20:29 GMT
Were you describing Luke in The Last Jedi or Luke in all the movies? Obi Wan had something to strive for. He had this baby to look after and train when he got older to go against the Empire. What did Luke have? Shame? He had no kid to train when he or she was older to go after Kylo and Snoke. Why would you want that? Because you want the old Luke again. Just be glad he gave you as much as he did. He could have had Luke go out like Yoda. Walk through that base, stand at the door and empty clothes drop to the floor. Exertion and fully using the Force after "obtaining" it again. It's like having no legs, then someone grows you some and you run a marathon 15 minutes later. That's not going to turn out right. But if you're Usain Bolt your 15 minutes of running is going to be way better than mine because you're USAIN FUCKING BOLT! That man will always run better faster harder than any of us.
Still, I get what you're saying. I guess I just wanted something more.
But if Usain Bolt lost his legs, then 10 years later got a new set artificially cloned for him, running 15 minutes after they were attached wouldn't be advisable right? Yes, most wanted Luke to be the hero they remember him being. Also, you guys know that Luke was not that hero you all remember him being, right? He was not this awesome fighter in either movie. Vader owned him until he got angry and Vader tripped on the bridge. Kylo would have wiped the floor with Luke then got a handful of salt from the ground and poured it in the wounds. Kylo's fighting is closer (not the same as, just closer) to the PT than the OT. Luke's heroism came more from confronting Vader and the Emperor and turning Vader.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 22, 2017 13:29:25 GMT
For an old man (without the Force) going around an island. Pole vaulting over to the side of a mountain. Catching fish that he carried back. I mean, without the Force, how did that old man get that fish up? Did he pull it up strapping to his back on that 3 inches of ledge and pole vault back over? He had to be very active at that age to do all that. He didn't "pole vault" to the other side of the mountain. Pole vault implies that you used a pole to lift yourself up and catapult you over something. Luke simply used rode the pole like a lever to get from one side of the mountain to the other. No running, jumping or vaulting involved. And you don't know how he got that fish up since it wasn't shown. He could have had a basket down there that he just pulled up with a rope. Or were you assuming that an old man without the force is capable of lifting that entire gigantic pole up to the very end, getting the fish, then putting it back in? Because that's an even worse assumption. As for walking, walking a few kilometers a day is not enough to get you flat abs, especially not if you're that old. My main point stands: Hamill could have been 50 lbs. heavier and it wouldn't have looked out of place for his role. You still have to get momentum to get to the other side. There was no basket or rope near him. Wait... So you guys want him to go all awesome on Kylo at the end of the movie, but you are saying he shouldn't be able to lift that giant spear with a fish that he carried back to his home?
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 22, 2017 13:32:46 GMT
Wedge was with Lando. Just saying. And Lando couldn't have done it without Han and his plan to get into the shield generator. Not only was he with Wedge but they both flew into the Death Star's core reactor. You can't miss from within. And Wedge was the only non-starring hero to survive all 3 movies... without the Force.
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 22, 2017 14:07:20 GMT
I have NO interest in seeing him as a force ghost. NONE. For what? So he can apologize for being a dick when was alive? So he can be helpful now that he's dead? To offer assistance "from a certain point of view"? Bullshit.
Luke was a wasted opportunity in this movie. Just a tweak here and there would have made his death a great moment and I feel we were cheated of even that.
For Surly.It was a lesson learned story for Luke. Luke didn't learn from his weakness in life and Yoda told him that. Him "coming out of hiding" showed that he realized how wrong he was. Even in death he can pass on that knowledge that he didn't pass on in life. Wasn't a wasted opportunity because he showed the flaws. Hell, he even made the same mistake as Obi Wan who did have support. I think if they actually showed him how to train others instead of rushing his training so he could go up against Vader and the Emperor then he wouldn't have made the mistakes he did and fail miserably. Here's the problem with your argument, pal. This point: 3. Going from a guy who risks his life for his father, whose full of evil and has a glimmer of good in him - to a guy who prepares to kill his nephew, who's generally a good kid but he senses a stroke of evil in him.You're basing your characterization of Luke off of what happened when Kylo destroyed the academy and afterwards. But Luke was already this negative, self defeated character before that. That's the whole reason he contemplated killing Kylo in the first place. Rian Johnson basically retconned Luke into being that type of character for his entire post ROTJ existence. If Luke had the kind of faith that he could turn his father Vader back to the Light, which he did, it fits his character that he would've done the same for Kylo. Then there's your argument that Luke had nothing to live for after the destruction of the academy. What about mourning and then regrouping to help stop the First Order? Or did you forget that it was Luke in ANH who basically called Han a selfish coward for not initially getting involved in the Battle of Yavin?
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 22, 2017 15:38:21 GMT
For Surly.It was a lesson learned story for Luke. Luke didn't learn from his weakness in life and Yoda told him that. Him "coming out of hiding" showed that he realized how wrong he was. Even in death he can pass on that knowledge that he didn't pass on in life. Wasn't a wasted opportunity because he showed the flaws. Hell, he even made the same mistake as Obi Wan who did have support. I think if they actually showed him how to train others instead of rushing his training so he could go up against Vader and the Emperor then he wouldn't have made the mistakes he did and fail miserably. Here's the problem with your argument, pal. This point: 3. Going from a guy who risks his life for his father, whose full of evil and has a glimmer of good in him - to a guy who prepares to kill his nephew, who's generally a good kid but he senses a stroke of evil in him.You're basing your characterization of Luke off of what happened when Kylo destroyed the academy and afterwards. But Luke was already this negative, self defeated character before that. That's the whole reason he contemplated killing Kylo in the first place. Rian Johnson basically retconned Luke into being that type of character for his entire post ROTJ existence. If Luke had the kind of faith that he could turn his father Vader back to the Light, which he did, it fits his character that he would've done the same for Kylo. Then there's your argument that Luke had nothing to live for after the destruction of the academy. What about mourning and then regrouping to help stop the First Order? Or did you forget that it was Luke in ANH who basically called Han a selfish coward for not initially getting involved in the Battle of Yavin? So you are basing your argument on a 19 year old idealistic kid? And no, I'm basing my characterization on the Luke from the OT. The one that made rash decisions when alone, but was the level headed one when he was with Han. Yes, Luke wanted to bring Vader back to the light, but at the same time, he was going for the kill when angered. And how did he bring Vader back to the light? He cried for his daddy. And it did fit his character. 30 years ago. When he was that idealistic kid not knowing what he was getting into. Now he knows what he's getting into and he knows that it won't work. Luke didn't turn Vader back to the light. His presence did. Him calling for his daddy while being electrocuted is what turned Vader back. That will not work on Ben. Even Han couldn't turn him back.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 22, 2017 15:45:59 GMT
Here's the problem with your argument, pal. This point: 3. Going from a guy who risks his life for his father, whose full of evil and has a glimmer of good in him - to a guy who prepares to kill his nephew, who's generally a good kid but he senses a stroke of evil in him.You're basing your characterization of Luke off of what happened when Kylo destroyed the academy and afterwards. But Luke was already this negative, self defeated character before that. That's the whole reason he contemplated killing Kylo in the first place. Rian Johnson basically retconned Luke into being that type of character for his entire post ROTJ existence. If Luke had the kind of faith that he could turn his father Vader back to the Light, which he did, it fits his character that he would've done the same for Kylo. Then there's your argument that Luke had nothing to live for after the destruction of the academy. What about mourning and then regrouping to help stop the First Order? Or did you forget that it was Luke in ANH who basically called Han a selfish coward for not initially getting involved in the Battle of Yavin? So you are basing your argument on a 19 year old idealistic kid? And no, I'm basing my characterization on the Luke from the OT. The one that made rash decisions when alone, but was the level headed one when he was with Han. Yes, Luke wanted to bring Vader back to the light, but at the same time, he was going for the kill when angered. And how did he bring Vader back to the light? He cried for his daddy. And it did fit his character. 30 years ago. When he was that idealistic kid not knowing what he was getting into. Now he knows what he's getting into and he knows that it won't work. Luke didn't turn Vader back to the light. His presence did. Him calling for his daddy while being electrocuted is what turned Vader back. That will not work on Ben. Even Han couldn't turn him back. Not such a bad ass after all hein?
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 22, 2017 16:57:27 GMT
Here's the problem with your argument, pal. This point: 3. Going from a guy who risks his life for his father, whose full of evil and has a glimmer of good in him - to a guy who prepares to kill his nephew, who's generally a good kid but he senses a stroke of evil in him.You're basing your characterization of Luke off of what happened when Kylo destroyed the academy and afterwards. But Luke was already this negative, self defeated character before that. That's the whole reason he contemplated killing Kylo in the first place. Rian Johnson basically retconned Luke into being that type of character for his entire post ROTJ existence. If Luke had the kind of faith that he could turn his father Vader back to the Light, which he did, it fits his character that he would've done the same for Kylo. Then there's your argument that Luke had nothing to live for after the destruction of the academy. What about mourning and then regrouping to help stop the First Order? Or did you forget that it was Luke in ANH who basically called Han a selfish coward for not initially getting involved in the Battle of Yavin? So you are basing your argument on a 19 year old idealistic kid? And no, I'm basing my characterization on the Luke from the OT. The one that made rash decisions when alone, but was the level headed one when he was with Han. Yes, Luke wanted to bring Vader back to the light, but at the same time, he was going for the kill when angered. And how did he bring Vader back to the light? He cried for his daddy. And it did fit his character. 30 years ago. When he was that idealistic kid not knowing what he was getting into. Now he knows what he's getting into and he knows that it won't work. Luke didn't turn Vader back to the light. His presence did. Him calling for his daddy while being electrocuted is what turned Vader back. That will not work on Ben. Even Han couldn't turn him back. There's one problem, buddy. I'm basing Luke off of the entire OT also. Yeah, he called Han a selfish coward when he was only 19. But what did Luke do when he sensed his friends in trouble on Cloud City? He flew off to help them. What did Luke do in ROTJ when a battle plan was being made? He wanted to join the cause. What did Luke do when he sensed some of the Light side in Vader? He left the mission alone to try and turn his father who he refused to give up on. And he was willing to sacrifice himself to achieve the goals. What did Luke do between TESB and ROTJ? He had been thoroughly beaten by Vader. And he was completely disheartened by it. He felt lost without Ben Kenobi. But did he sulk like a negative Nancy nine year old? No! He regrouped himself and went to Tattooine to rescue Han and ultimately everyone else.So, yeah. As you can see l can make that claim that my characterization of Luke is based off of the entire OT also.
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