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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 17, 2017 23:47:34 GMT
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SO... Luke dies from what?! Exertion?!
What did he die from? If he wasnt there then nothing actually hurt him. Using the force can kill a jedi master now? Wtf?
And more importantly, WHY did he have to die? What dramatic purpose did it serve? His coming back to the fight would have served so much more purpose. Especially in light of Hans death, and Leias plea, and Reys need of a mentor. Not to mention that Carrie is gone and Harrison cant return.
Bad decision imo. Both Luke and Mark Hamill still had a lot of mileage left in them.
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Post by Archelaus on Dec 18, 2017 0:28:20 GMT
He died from his prolonged use of the Force projection, apparently. Dramatically, his death was to further advance the character arcs of Rey, Finn, and Poe as Episode IX will focus mainly on them. It also ties in with the theme of the film to let the past die and move forward into the future.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Dec 18, 2017 1:01:28 GMT
Yeah i wish they didn't do the projecting and just had him show up personally.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 4:18:35 GMT
Because contrary to what I hoped, Star Wars is in the hands of people who don't know what they're doing, and, as crazy as it sounds, seem to really hate the previous six films and all the lore that surrounded them in other media.
In EU, astral projection doesn't kill people. So they actually had to change established lore to get to this end. What does that tell you?
And as others have already stated, if it was going to kill him anyway, why not just have him die in person on Krait?
The simple answer to that is that Rian Johnson is a hack writer who wanted a bunch of gotcha moments at the expense of good story-telling, let alone reverence to SW history.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 18, 2017 5:20:49 GMT
It's like Disney sees Star Wars as only the brand of names and character images and that's all that matters. Kennedy must be a real dope if she was so indifferent to what was done to Luke and somehow I doubt Hamill would have sat back and not said something to management?
He could have been a diva and said I wont do it unless I get a scene with this or this.
According to wiki's entry on him, Rian Johnson says the film that inspired him the most was Annie Hall.
Not the kind of film you expect someone who is making a Star Wars movie to consider their chief inspiration.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 5:46:23 GMT
Well let's look at the options...
1. Luke faces down the First Order for real and dies at the hands of Kylo. - Anybody ready to accept Kylo defeating Luke hand to hand after Rey beat Kylo?
2. Luke faces down the First Order for real and kills Kylo. - Not sure what episode 9 is about if that one happens.
3. Luke faces down the First Order for real and stalemates Kylo. - Anybody ready to accept Kylo as an equal to Luke?
4. Luke Astral Projects and doesn't die. - Then there was no risk in Luke projecting in the first place and fans would have said Luke has been left as a coward at the end of this film.
Any other endings that really play this out any better for Luke? He sacrificed himself for the others, isn't that what Luke would have done? And just like Ben, he really became one with the Force anyway. He'll be back with a blue glow.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 18, 2017 8:11:48 GMT
Well let's look at the options... 1. Luke faces down the First Order for real and dies at the hands of Kylo. - Anybody ready to accept Kylo defeating Luke hand to hand after Rey beat Kylo? That would likely cause controversy and split the audience's reaction. But maybe if Luke Skywalker had been hurt or injured by the First Order before he started dueling Kylo? After all, isn't that what they tried to sell us as to why Kylo lost to Rey? (It was just poorly executed IMO). Well at the risk of being sarcastic, it wouldn't be the first time a project with Abrams involved in the production killed off an icon or central character for cheap shock value. And left a void that wasn't subsequently filled. But this saga is so Rey and Kylo heavy I doubt that would ever happen. Still... I wouldn't entirely rule it out considering the source. To off Kylo and fill his void in episode 9 by plugging in some new, random female character. (#see the character Admiral Holdo, whose storyline easily could've been filled by Admiral Ackbar). Well Yoda faced down Dooku at the end of AOTC and that ended in a stalemate that wound up saving ObiWan and Anakin. Audiences were fine with that. I don't see how that makes him a coward since the story of the movie made it clear that Luke was buying time for the Resistance to escape anyway. Even Rose, after stopping Finn from sacrificing himself said "You don't win by sacrificing yourself to kill something you hate. You win by saving what you love." So that scenario would've fit perfectly with the theme. I tend to think so. According to the above replies. And as the OP brought out, the whole concept of dying because of expending yourself in astral projection doesn't make much sense from a lore standpoint. I guess it comes down to how much you respect the lore or how serious do you take it. If you're fine with really lose interpretations and dismissing the idea of any constructs, boundaries, natures, or limitations... or changing it on the fly at any time... then none of this is a problem. But if that's the case then let's stop calling this stuff the Force (hand that trademark back to George Lucas), and start calling it Disney Magic. But for me personally, looking at some of the stuff done in the EU, it just doesn't seem like it's too hard to respect the lore and mythos. Or that it's asking too much.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 18, 2017 8:37:51 GMT
The movie is hamstrung by the need of the studio to make the white males weak or fail.
In the original SW, Kenobi shuts down the force field and creates enough distraction for Luke and friends to escape. He sacrifices himself.
He was a non traditional hero (by 1977 standards for fantasy) in that he was an old frail man, but we understand that he was a knight in his youth (and at this point, he had not failed to train Anakin properly so there was no failure aspect to the character).
Not until ROTJ. "I was wrong."
The new movies were royally fucked by the inability to have any kind of traditional heroism (if the character is white-Poe on the other hand is able to have superhuman survival powers well beyond what Flash Gordon could do).
Another problem, Rey is more of a beta woman which is why her warrior skills seem so off kilter. No one called Lucy Lawless or Lynda Carter or the gal in the Road Warrior a Mary Sue because one look at them tells you that they have an in charge quality.
Mark Hamill was the beta male in Star Wars, but he was not super powerful--he accidentally blows the controls for the bridge in the Death Star but then thinks up an alternative with a cable line. It's not Errol Flynn but it works for his type of character. He's the nerdy hero.
Disney looks at the movies as vehicles for transmitting propaganda, and the desire to make Luke a demoralizing figure was not accidental.
If it was accidental, then Poe would have been a failure too.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 18, 2017 17:02:45 GMT
The movie is hamstrung by the need of the studio to make the white males weak or fail... ....And that's where I stopped reading. Politics is not the reason this movie fails or triumphs. Politics is not the answer for everything. Give it a break. In this case the directing is what's at fault.
Rian Johnson had the chance to give us answers and great moments, and instead was trying to SO HARD to give us original moments that he didn't give is what we really wanted. We wanted him to go "right" and instead every chance he took he went "left".
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 18, 2017 17:16:05 GMT
Well let's look at the options... 1. Luke faces down the First Order for real and dies at the hands of Kylo. - Anybody ready to accept Kylo defeating Luke hand to hand after Rey beat Kylo? 2. Luke faces down the First Order for real and kills Kylo. - Not sure what episode 9 is about if that one happens. 3. Luke faces down the First Order for real and stalemates Kylo. - Anybody ready to accept Kylo as an equal to Luke? 4. Luke Astral Projects and doesn't die. - Then there was no risk in Luke projecting in the first place and fans would have said Luke has been left as a coward at the end of this film. Any other endings that really play this out any better for Luke? He sacrificed himself for the others, isn't that what Luke would have done? And just like Ben, he really became one with the Force anyway. He'll be back with a blue glow. I have absolutely NO interest in seeing Luke come back as a force ghost. Whats he gonna do, say "Rey, I know I was a dick when I was alive, but now that I'm dead, I'll help you! Maybe you can accept my help "from a certain point of view". Bullshit.
As to your suggestions: Yes, any of those would have also been problematic, BUT as someone else already wrote: What if some other story element came into play- like he got hurt somehow.
Before he fake-fought Kylo he fake-withstood a barrage of cannon fire. I would have been okay with him coming out of that in a weakened state. Kylo wins that fight and Luke A) dies from that (a worthy death as he would have gone out fighting), OR B) he survives but weakened and we get to see him in Episode 9 so he can get another chance to be cool, unlike in this movie.
Using our imaginations there are any number of ways that this could have gone down and been better. IMO he went out worse than Obi Wan did. At least Obi Wan was kicking some old man ass when he went out in ANH, and was a cool character the whole rest of the movie. What did Luke do in this movie? Shit, even Yoda took more decisive action than Luke did! wtf?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 18, 2017 17:32:50 GMT
He died from his prolonged use of the Force projection, apparently. Dramatically, his death was to further advance the character arcs of Rey, Finn, and Poe as Episode IX will focus mainly on them. It also ties in with the theme of the film to let the past die and move forward into the future. But his LIFE would have further advanced her arc more as she needs someone to teach her. She doesn't have to become a Jedi, but she still has to learn certain things, like how to sword fight, how to lift shit, how to high jump. You know, all that cool shit we like to see force users do in Star Wars movies. I get your point, but I don't buy it.
Her learning how to sword fight all on her own is B.S. I hate to say it, because I absolutely HATED it when everyone else was saying it, but... well... mary sue?
AAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! DAMMIT!!! I SAID IT!!!! Now I have to flagellate!
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 18, 2017 17:35:06 GMT
....And that's where I stopped reading. Politics is not the reason this movie fails or triumphs. Politics is not the answer for everything. Give it a break. In this case the directing is what's at fault.
Rian Johnson had the chance to give us answers and great moments, and instead was trying to SO HARD to give us original moments that he didn't give is what we really wanted. We wanted him to go "right" and instead every chance he took he went "left".
It's naive to think Disney does not operate on a politics first modus operandi. Edgar Wright was removed from Ant Man because he deviated from the plans. People will keep scratching their head why Disney is doing what it does but it all fits into their cultural Marxism. The Force is now in the hands of the proletariat. Anyone can have Force power. The most powerful force users are now nobodies. Might as well get over the frustration because it will keep moving down the same road, ideologically speaking.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 18:16:59 GMT
When Kylo first sees Rey in the telepathic Skype call he says ‘you’re not doing this yourself, the effort would kill you’ and that wasn’t even astral travel.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 18:19:38 GMT
When Kylo first sees Rey in the telepathic Skype call he says ‘you’re not doing this yourself, the effort would kill you’ and that wasn’t even astral travel. Pistachio get's it.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 18:21:48 GMT
Because contrary to what I hoped, Star Wars is in the hands of people who don't know what they're doing, and, as crazy as it sounds, seem to really hate the previous six films and all the lore that surrounded them in other media. In EU, astral projection doesn't kill people. So they actually had to change established lore to get to this end. What does that tell you? And as others have already stated, if it was going to kill him anyway, why not just have him die in person on Krait? The simple answer to that is that Rian Johnson is a hack writer who wanted a bunch of gotcha moments at the expense of good story-telling, let alone reverence to SW history. The EU is not established lore. Actually it never was. Lucas just let people right what they want because he was done with it, but the PT F'd the EU lore up and down.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 18, 2017 18:54:56 GMT
When Kylo first sees Rey in the telepathic Skype call he says ‘you’re not doing this yourself, the effort would kill you’ and that wasn’t even astral travel. But she's a completely novice force user with no training who just started using her powers only weeks/days before! Not a Jedi master at the height of his powers with the help of ghost Yoda too! WTF? If Snoke could do it Luke should have been able to do it too. I call BS.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 18:55:30 GMT
Because contrary to what I hoped, Star Wars is in the hands of people who don't know what they're doing, and, as crazy as it sounds, seem to really hate the previous six films and all the lore that surrounded them in other media. In EU, astral projection doesn't kill people. So they actually had to change established lore to get to this end. What does that tell you? And as others have already stated, if it was going to kill him anyway, why not just have him die in person on Krait? The simple answer to that is that Rian Johnson is a hack writer who wanted a bunch of gotcha moments at the expense of good story-telling, let alone reverence to SW history. The EU is not established lore. Actually it never was. Lucas just let people right what they want because he was done with it, but the PT F'd the EU lore up and down. What? EU was considered canon before Disney.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 18, 2017 18:55:34 GMT
When Kylo first sees Rey in the telepathic Skype call he says ‘you’re not doing this yourself, the effort would kill you’ and that wasn’t even astral travel. Pistachio get's it. Nope. I repeat: But she's a completely novice force user with no training who just started using her powers only weeks/days before! Not a Jedi master at the height of his powers with the help of ghost Yoda too! WTF? If Snoke could do it Luke should have been able to do it too. I call BS.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 19:02:54 GMT
Nope. I repeat: But she's a completely novice force user with no training who just started using her powers only weeks/days before! Not a Jedi master at the height of his powers with the help of ghost Yoda too! WTF? If Snoke could do it Luke should have been able to do it too. I call BS.
What does snoke have to do with luke? Vader couldn't do force lighnting...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 19:17:08 GMT
Nope. I repeat: But she's a completely novice force user with no training who just started using her powers only weeks/days before! Not a Jedi master at the height of his powers with the help of ghost Yoda too! WTF? If Snoke could do it Luke should have been able to do it too. I call BS.
You're right on the money. People who defend this astral projection = death nonsense are clutching at straws to explain it away, but we know the truth: RJ wanted gotcha moments at the expense of a coherent storyline. Ooooh...we're all supposed to be so surprised that Luke wasn't there! Aaaahhhh....so thrilling. Ask them this question: why did Luke only exercise the 5 Ds of Dodgeball out there? Why not actually take a few swings at Kylo, try to actually do some damage? Go on, ask them that.
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