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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 15:49:37 GMT
For one, the Force does stuff on its own in these films. Previous to the ST, use of the Force was a symbiotic exchange between living flesh and spiritual power. The only example pre-Disney had to do with the nature of the imbalance in the Force, which is a pretty good exception considering it's the crisis that drives the entire saga. Please give me an example of this in this film. Then we will go to Dagobah and talk about the cave. Carrie Poppins.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 15:50:19 GMT
What does the force do on it's own? Genuine question. Calls out to Rey through the blue light saber in TFA. Saves Carries Poppins in TLJ. Well we saw the cave in esb calling to luke. The Force does that from time to time. No news there. Leia saved herself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 15:52:58 GMT
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."...,"You must confront Vader" Do as I say not as I do? Or was that someone else catapulting around the Senate floor? Yoda was unconvinced that Vader could be turned. So what then, in your opinion, did he mean by "confront." Thats where people get it all backwards. Yoda learned from his mistake with the Emperor. Confront means just that. Confront, face evil. The Force will guide you are its "ally" and have blind faith on what to do.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 15:54:18 GMT
Please give me an example of this in this film. Then we will go to Dagobah and talk about the cave. Carrie Poppins. BS Leia saved herself. It was corny as hell though.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 15:54:59 GMT
Do as I say not as I do? Or was that someone else catapulting around the Senate floor? Yoda was unconvinced that Vader could be turned. So what then, in your opinion, did he mean by "confront." Thats where people get it all backwards. Yoda learned from his mistake with the Emperor. Confront means just that. Confront, face evil. The Force will guide you are its "ally" and have blind faith on what to do. And this guy (winteriscoming or something) calls himself a fan on another level than the plebe that goes see these movies...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 15:58:02 GMT
BS Leia saved herself. It was corny as hell though. Unconsciously?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 15:59:29 GMT
Do as I say not as I do? Or was that someone else catapulting around the Senate floor? Yoda was unconvinced that Vader could be turned. So what then, in your opinion, did he mean by "confront." Confront means just that. Confront, face evil. The Force will guide you are its "ally" and have blind faith on what to do. That's called conjecture my friend. The only thing Yoda says about this confrontation is that he doesn't believe Vader can be turned, which is Luke's idea. At no point does Yoda say, "go hang out with your dad and the Force will tell you what to do."
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 16:35:09 GMT
BS Leia saved herself. It was corny as hell though. Unconsciously? Exactly. It's nonsense. It's Disney magic, not the Force. Notice in this video starting at about the 3 minute mark; Filoni had a conversation with George Lucas about one of the Jedi characters surviving in space. Pay close attention to what he says that George Lucas position was on it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 16:41:56 GMT
BS Leia saved herself. It was corny as hell though. Unconsciously? I've seen countless films where a protagonist has been in an accident, blown up, hit with 2x4's, sinking into the murky depths, where at the last possible moment they wake up and make a bid for safety, and not once did I even dream that the storyteller was trying to convey that a supernatural force was responsible for the awakening. I'm not going to choose now to start unless there is something in the story to make me believe that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 16:47:43 GMT
I've seen countless films where a protagonist has been in an accident, blown up, hit with 2x4's, sinking into the murky depths, where at the last possible moment they wake up and make a bid for safety, and not once did I even dream that the storyteller was trying to convey that a supernatural force was responsible for the awakening. I'm not going to choose now to start unless there is something in the story to make me believe that. I'm not even sure what you're saying right now. Let's simplify: you claim Leia saved herself by flying through outer space. I would like for you to define how she was able to make this decision without being conscious.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 16:48:02 GMT
Confront means just that. Confront, face evil. The Force will guide you are its "ally" and have blind faith on what to do. That's called conjecture my friend. The only thing Yoda says about this confrontation is that he doesn't believe Vader can be turned, which is Luke's idea. At no point does Yoda say, "go hang out with your dad and the Force will tell you what to do." List all the aggressive things Yoda taught Luke here please, and we will see which one of us has evidence for their "conjecture" and which one of us doesn't as far as what Luke was trained by Yoda to actually do.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 16:50:17 GMT
I've seen countless films where a protagonist has been in an accident, blown up, hit with 2x4's, sinking into the murky depths, where at the last possible moment they wake up and make a bid for safety, and not once did I even dream that the storyteller was trying to convey that a supernatural force was responsible for the awakening. I'm not going to choose now to start unless there is something in the story to make me believe that. I'm not even sure what you're saying right now. Let's simplify: you claim Leia saved herself by flying through outer space. I would like for you to define how she was able to make this decision without being conscious. I'm saying she came to, and used the Force to pull herself to safety, before collapsing at that door. She sure looked conscious to me as she flew. Are you saying her limp body flew to the door?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 16:50:51 GMT
I've seen countless films where a protagonist has been in an accident, blown up, hit with 2x4's, sinking into the murky depths, where at the last possible moment they wake up and make a bid for safety, and not once did I even dream that the storyteller was trying to convey that a supernatural force was responsible for the awakening. I'm not going to choose now to start unless there is something in the story to make me believe that. I'm not even sure what you're saying right now. Let's simplify: you claim Leia saved herself by flying through outer space. I would like for you to define how she was able to make this decision without being conscious. Because it seems like you're saying people that are left for dead often end up surviving, which of course, I agree with. But we're not talking about someone waking up. We're talking about them being knocked out. If Leia saved herself as you claim, I would like you to explain how she did that while taking a snooze. And then for extra credit, I'd like you to point to any event in SW history where someone used the Force without being conscious.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 16:52:38 GMT
I'm not even sure what you're saying right now. Let's simplify: you claim Leia saved herself by flying through outer space. I would like for you to define how she was able to make this decision without being conscious. Because it seems like you're saying people that are left for dead often end up surviving, which of course, I agree with. But we're not talking about someone waking up. We're talking about them being knocked out. If Leia saved herself as you claim, I would like you to explain how she did that while taking a snooze. And then for extra credit, I'd like you to point to any event in SW history where someone used the Force without being conscious. Does beinfg asleep count? Not exactly conscious... But it did wake anakin up
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 16:57:12 GMT
Because it seems like you're saying people that are left for dead often end up surviving, which of course, I agree with. But we're not talking about someone waking up. We're talking about them being knocked out. If Leia saved herself as you claim, I would like you to explain how she did that while taking a snooze. And then for extra credit, I'd like you to point to any event in SW history where someone used the Force without being conscious. Does beinfg asleep count? Not exactly conscious... But it did wake anakin up Are you talking about when Anakin was dreaming? You do know that dreaming is a state of semi-consciousness, right? It's not the same thing as being unconscious.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 17:01:13 GMT
That's called conjecture my friend. The only thing Yoda says about this confrontation is that he doesn't believe Vader can be turned, which is Luke's idea. At no point does Yoda say, "go hang out with your dad and the Force will tell you what to do." List all the aggressive things Yoda taught Luke here please, and we will see which one of us has evidence for their "conjecture" and which one of us doesn't as far as what Luke was trained by Yoda to actually do. Let's start with the fact that he uses the word confrontation. But okay, confrontation can mean many things. Yoda also says they must be stopped and ends with "only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor." My quiver contains these arrows: confront, stop, conquer, the words that Yoda uses with Luke regarding what should happen. Yoda's own, past behavior. Obi Wan's reinforcement that Vader - specifically - should be killed. I'm already aware of the cave argument, which I totally disagree on the exact way that's supposed to be interpreted (Luke failed because he gave in to fear and the dark side, not because he slayed "Vader."). What else ya got?
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 17:01:30 GMT
Does beinfg asleep count? Not exactly conscious... But it did wake anakin up Are you talking about when Anakin was dreaming? You do know that dreaming is a state of semi-consciousness, right? It's not the same thing as being unconscious. Ok, it was a Syncope then. Happy?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 17:02:07 GMT
Because it seems like you're saying people that are left for dead often end up surviving, which of course, I agree with. But we're not talking about someone waking up. We're talking about them being knocked out. If Leia saved herself as you claim, I would like you to explain how she did that while taking a snooze. And then for extra credit, I'd like you to point to any event in SW history where someone used the Force without being conscious. Does beinfg asleep count? Not exactly conscious... But it did wake anakin up Oy vey....
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 17:04:30 GMT
I'm not even sure what you're saying right now. Let's simplify: you claim Leia saved herself by flying through outer space. I would like for you to define how she was able to make this decision without being conscious. Because it seems like you're saying people that are left for dead often end up surviving, which of course, I agree with. But we're not talking about someone waking up. We're talking about them being knocked out. If Leia saved herself as you claim, I would like you to explain how she did that while taking a snooze. And then for extra credit, I'd like you to point to any event in SW history where someone used the Force without being conscious. Exactly! Remember in ROTS when ObiWan was knocked unconscious by Dooku when dueling Anakin and ObiWan at the beginning of the movie? Anakin had to carry ObiWan out til he naturally woke up, in order to save him. The Force didn't cause ObiWan to levitate and float down the elevator shaft while being unconscious so ObiWan could get to safety. And the Force wasn't part of why ObiWan eventually woke up. They're just defending Disney magic called the Force. And they don't want to accept it.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 17:05:17 GMT
Does beinfg asleep count? Not exactly conscious... But it did wake anakin up Oy vey.... Indeed... How can a concept so easy to understand like wake up be so difficult to some.
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