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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 17:53:17 GMT
How would she return to consciousness with no oxygen supply (which reinforces and strengthens the condition of unconsciousness? And even if you ignore that, the length of time she was already out there at that temperature would've made her as stiff as a pop-sickle? So are you arguing science here, because I'll readily accept that as a flaw, but to explain that the Force took control of her and did all that is reading something into the story. Does the Force cause sound in space, allow fire in space, or any of the other unscientific possibilities we have seen in these movies? no. It's a flawed scene, and I do believe that the Force is sentient, but I wouldn't use that bad scene to make a case for it. She just woke up, plain and simple, and if one wants to make the case that it's a flaw because she shouldn't be able to, go ahead. Those things that you mentioned are artificial constructs that are present in all science fiction or space movies. And that's because if they didn't provide them then the entertainment experience would be nullified. It would cut the sensory experience in half. They have nothing to do with the pre-established laws of a said fictional universe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 17:54:32 GMT
So are you arguing science here, because I'll readily accept that as a flaw, but to explain that the Force took control of her and did all that is reading something into the story. Does the Force cause sound in space, allow fire in space, or any of the other unscientific possibilities we have seen in these movies? no. It's a flawed scene, and I do believe that the Force is sentient, but I wouldn't use that bad scene to make a case for it. She just woke up, plain and simple, and if one wants to make the case that it's a flaw because she shouldn't be able to, go ahead. Sorry, dude. I was with ya this whole time. I thought you were making good arguments (even though I disagreed), but if you intend to go down Mcufan's rabbit hole about unscientific things in movies, I can't follow you. The point of pointing out the fishy science in your argument for Leia waking up is not to necessarily get into an argument about how sci fi does or does not bend the rules of science. We all know it does and we all happily accept it. The reason we're using science is because, according to you and me, there is controversy over whether Leia saved herself or the Force acted on its own. In order to back up my thoughts, I am using Occam's Razor in stating that a whole bunch of suspension of disbelief has to occur in order to believe Leia woke up herself. On the other hand, the material presented to us in TFA seems to indicate the Force Awakened within Rey (not the other way around). That the Force is acting on its own. The preponderance of evidence suggests that the Force saving Leia is more likely than Leia saving Leia. I think you guys should just come to terms with the fact that Disney is making modifications to the Force. You can still like it. There's nothing wrong with having the opinion that Disney is doing nothing wrong by tampering with it. I groaned as I saw that scene, and the jury is still out for me as far as what Disney is doing to the Force until the trilogy is complete. It's very bad scene, and I only see Leia being shown that she actually has Force powers beyond empathy. But for not one second did I see that scene as a Force induced control of an unconscious individual. I sincerely doubt the storyteller was trying to convey unconscious possession of an individual by the Force.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 17:54:40 GMT
Like say a fucking Force Ghost? Lucas and Filoni touch on that in CWAS...they're just consciousness surviving in the energy of the force. Only those that conquer their fears completely merge with the force. It makes sense to me. The more you commune with it, the more you detach from fear and emotion, a reshaping of the mind must occur, maybe some shit with the midichlorians...then something like 'ascension' from Stargate happens when you die. Makes sense, we never see sith force ghosts, we only see those that have conquered their dark side. It sounds dumb, but it's consistent in and of itself. Like I said, in the live action and animated series, everything was consistent up to TFA. I'm talking about up to the moment we see a force ghost we don't know about force ghosts. SO? Only the OT and PT can introduce new Force Powers? how very limiting.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 17:55:37 GMT
So are you arguing science here, because I'll readily accept that as a flaw, but to explain that the Force took control of her and did all that is reading something into the story. Does the Force cause sound in space, allow fire in space, or any of the other unscientific possibilities we have seen in these movies? no. It's a flawed scene, and I do believe that the Force is sentient, but I wouldn't use that bad scene to make a case for it. She just woke up, plain and simple, and if one wants to make the case that it's a flaw because she shouldn't be able to, go ahead. Those things that you mentioned are artificial constructs that are present in all science fiction or space movies. And that's because if they didn't provide them then the entertainment experience would be nullified. It would cut the sensory experience in half. They have nothing to do with the pre-established laws of a said fictional universe. Except 2001...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 17:55:58 GMT
Sorry, dude. I was with ya this whole time. I thought you were making good arguments (even though I disagreed), but if you intend to go down Mcufan's rabbit hole about unscientific things in movies, I can't follow you. The point of pointing out the fishy science in your argument for Leia waking up is not to necessarily get into an argument about how sci fi does or does not bend the rules of science. We all know it does and we all happily accept it. The reason we're using science is because, according to you and me, there is controversy over whether Leia saved herself or the Force acted on its own. In order to back up my thoughts, I am using Occam's Razor in stating that a whole bunch of suspension of disbelief has to occur in order to believe Leia woke up herself. On the other hand, the material presented to us in TFA seems to indicate the Force Awakened within Rey (not the other way around). That the Force is acting on its own. The preponderance of evidence suggests that the Force saving Leia is more likely than Leia saving Leia. I think you guys should just come to terms with the fact that Disney is making modifications to the Force. You can still like it. There's nothing wrong with having the opinion that Disney is doing nothing wrong by tampering with it. I groaned as I saw that scene, and the jury is still out for me as far as what Disney is doing to the Force until the trilogy is complete. It's very bad scene, and I only see Leia being shown that she actually has Force powers beyond empathy. But for not one second did I see that scene as a Force induced control of an unconscious individual. I sincerely doubt the storyteller was trying to convey unconscious possession of an individual by the Force. Fair enough. I've enjoyed your arguments. Good luck with Ep. IX!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 17:56:26 GMT
Sorry, dude. I was with ya this whole time. I thought you were making good arguments (even though I disagreed), but if you intend to go down Mcufan's rabbit hole about unscientific things in movies, I can't follow you. The point of pointing out the fishy science in your argument for Leia waking up is not to necessarily get into an argument about how sci fi does or does not bend the rules of science. We all know it does and we all happily accept it. The reason we're using science is because, according to you and me, there is controversy over whether Leia saved herself or the Force acted on its own. In order to back up my thoughts, I am using Occam's Razor in stating that a whole bunch of suspension of disbelief has to occur in order to believe Leia woke up herself. On the other hand, the material presented to us in TFA seems to indicate the Force Awakened within Rey (not the other way around). That the Force is acting on its own. The preponderance of evidence suggests that the Force saving Leia is more likely than Leia saving Leia. I think you guys should just come to terms with the fact that Disney is making modifications to the Force. You can still like it. There's nothing wrong with having the opinion that Disney is doing nothing wrong by tampering with it. Disney is doing nothing wrong. Except changing the Force into Disney magic. Either you like that they are doing that, or you don't like that they are doing that. But to argue that they're not doing it is... IMO foolish. There's too much evidence that supports that this is exactly what they're doing.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 17:57:31 GMT
YES! Fiction! You are getting there go on. <sigh> Nope. You didn't understand my previous post. The audience is in a completely separate world from the fiction. How I can hear space ships blasting away in space has zilch to do with whether that's a scientific possibility. The movie and I don't exist in the same reality or continuum and are not subject to the same rules. Then is it out of the realm of possibility that in Star Wars Galaxy you can survive and wake up from a deep space walk?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 17:57:57 GMT
So are you arguing science here, because I'll readily accept that as a flaw, but to explain that the Force took control of her and did all that is reading something into the story. Does the Force cause sound in space, allow fire in space, or any of the other unscientific possibilities we have seen in these movies? no. It's a flawed scene, and I do believe that the Force is sentient, but I wouldn't use that bad scene to make a case for it. She just woke up, plain and simple, and if one wants to make the case that it's a flaw because she shouldn't be able to, go ahead. Those things that you mentioned are artificial constructs that are present in all science fiction or space movies. And that's because if they didn't provide them then the entertainment experience would be nullified. It would cut the sensory experience in half. They have nothing to do with the pre-established laws of a said fictional universe. And adding coming to from being knocked out when being sucked into space is that deus ex machina, or bad storytelling? I simply see it as the latter.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 19, 2017 17:58:09 GMT
Lucas and Filoni touch on that in CWAS...they're just consciousness surviving in the energy of the force. Only those that conquer their fears completely merge with the force. It makes sense to me. The more you commune with it, the more you detach from fear and emotion, a reshaping of the mind must occur, maybe some shit with the midichlorians...then something like 'ascension' from Stargate happens when you die. Makes sense, we never see sith force ghosts, we only see those that have conquered their dark side. It sounds dumb, but it's consistent in and of itself. Like I said, in the live action and animated series, everything was consistent up to TFA. I'm talking about up to the moment we see a force ghost we don't know about force ghosts. SO? Only the OT and PT can introduce new Force Powers? how very limiting. Sure, you can add 'new' powers, but that changes the force. It sounds like, to you, having characters apply the same force skills in different ways isn't enough?
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 17:58:36 GMT
Disney is doing nothing wrong. Except changing the Force into Disney magic. Either you like that they are doing that, or you don't like that they are doing that. But to argue that they're not doing it is... IMO foolish. There's too much evidence that supports that this is exactly what they're doing. Ok, then i like it. You don't fair enough.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 18:00:20 GMT
I'm talking about up to the moment we see a force ghost we don't know about force ghosts. SO? Only the OT and PT can introduce new Force Powers? how very limiting. Sure, you can add 'new' powers, but that changes the force. It sounds like, to you, having characters apply the same force skills in different ways isn't enough? Sure, but the new force powers are just new until they aren't. By ahn, you didn't even have force push man...
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 18:04:02 GMT
Except changing the Force into Disney magic. Either you like that they are doing that, or you don't like that they are doing that. But to argue that they're not doing it is... IMO foolish. There's too much evidence that supports that this is exactly what they're doing. Ok, then i like it. You don't fair enough. Enjoy your Disney magic. I'll watch the stuff that actually portrays the Force.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 19, 2017 18:04:53 GMT
Sure, you can add 'new' powers, but that changes the force. It sounds like, to you, having characters apply the same force skills in different ways isn't enough? Sure, but the new force powers are just new until they aren't. By ahn, you didn't even have force push man... new until they aren't? I honestly saw nothing new until Kylo Ren was able to read minds. Everything up to that point in the movies was pretty straightforward and didn't 'break the rules'. But no worries, this SW isn't for me anymore. I don't enjoy deus ex magic.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 18:08:04 GMT
Sure, but the new force powers are just new until they aren't. By ahn, you didn't even have force push man... new until they aren't? I honestly saw nothing new until Kylo Ren was able to read minds. Everything up to that point in the movies was pretty straightforward and didn't 'break the rules'. But no worries, this SW isn't for me anymore. I don't enjoy deus ex magic. What rules? where are these ilusive rules?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 18:09:59 GMT
I groaned as I saw that scene, and the jury is still out for me as far as what Disney is doing to the Force until the trilogy is complete. It's very bad scene, and I only see Leia being shown that she actually has Force powers beyond empathy. But for not one second did I see that scene as a Force induced control of an unconscious individual. I sincerely doubt the storyteller was trying to convey unconscious possession of an individual by the Force. Fair enough. I've enjoyed your arguments. Good luck with Ep. IX! Take Care and I'll get a much more detailed description of Yoda's arc when I am not on a phone doing this.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 19, 2017 18:23:16 GMT
new until they aren't? I honestly saw nothing new until Kylo Ren was able to read minds. Everything up to that point in the movies was pretty straightforward and didn't 'break the rules'. But no worries, this SW isn't for me anymore. I don't enjoy deus ex magic. What rules? where are these ilusive rules? The rules the universe establishes? Every science fiction, or fiction film needs to abide by a consistent set of rules, or it will break viewers suspension of disbelief. It's why I have a hard time with Harry Potter...no damn rules. Everyone can just do things when the plot needs it. Lucas gave the force limitations specifically because he didn't want it becoming a deus ex.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 19, 2017 18:24:34 GMT
What rules? where are these ilusive rules? The rules the universe establishes? Every science fiction, or fiction film needs to abide by a consistent set of rules, or it will break viewers suspension of disbelief. It's why I have a hard time with Harry Potter...no damn rules. Everyone can just do things when the plot needs it. Lucas gave the force limitations specifically because he didn't want it becoming a deus ex. Yes, but where are they? Do you have a link? And I don't think they broke any major rule, by the way. Force projection and what more? Link between two people already established. What else?
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Post by ryboto on Dec 19, 2017 18:37:28 GMT
The rules the universe establishes? Every science fiction, or fiction film needs to abide by a consistent set of rules, or it will break viewers suspension of disbelief. It's why I have a hard time with Harry Potter...no damn rules. Everyone can just do things when the plot needs it. Lucas gave the force limitations specifically because he didn't want it becoming a deus ex. Yes, but where are they? Do you have a link? And I don't think they broke any major rule, by the way. Force projection and what more? Link between two people already established. What else? The force being sentient and actually having a will. Disney did in fact do that. Inanimate objects causing a force vision. Mind reading. Being good at use of a light sabre just because you know what the force is. Being good at force skills just because you know you can use it. A projection isn't really new, and communication isn't new. Using the force to wake yourself from unconsciousness, that's new. If the force did it for her, that's new too. I know you're being snarky. I know you can read between the lines. Anyway, a good example of a franchise that breaks it's own rules often is Star Trek. The episodes in which it happens cause me to really raise an eyebrow and ultimately my suspension of disbelief is lifted. Same happened with TFA. It no longer felt like I was watching Star Wars.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 19, 2017 18:39:17 GMT
So are you arguing science here, because I'll readily accept that as a flaw, but to explain that the Force took control of her and did all that is reading something into the story. Does the Force cause sound in space, allow fire in space, or any of the other unscientific possibilities we have seen in these movies? no. It's a flawed scene, and I do believe that the Force is sentient, but I wouldn't use that bad scene to make a case for it. She just woke up, plain and simple, and if one wants to make the case that it's a flaw because she shouldn't be able to, go ahead. Those things that you mentioned are artificial constructs that are present in all science fiction or space movies. And that's because if they didn't provide them then the entertainment experience would be nullified. It would cut the sensory experience in half. They have nothing to do with the pre-established laws of a said fictional universe. Leia surviving the vacuum of space is not that hard to accept for me. She wasn't out there for that long and she was just conscious enough to use the force to save herself. Period. I'm fine with that.
The Force is basically a sci-fi/star wars version of magic anyway, so I'm willing to give it a little lee way. Also the parameters of the force have never been clearly defined. In every movie some force user comes up with some new force power to expand what we thought possible, so again lee way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 18:40:38 GMT
<sigh> Nope. You didn't understand my previous post. The audience is in a completely separate world from the fiction. How I can hear space ships blasting away in space has zilch to do with whether that's a scientific possibility. The movie and I don't exist in the same reality or continuum and are not subject to the same rules. Then is it out of the realm of possibility that in Star Wars Galaxy you can survive and wake up from a deep space walk? Not anymore it isn't...according to Disney.
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