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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 19, 2017 18:42:57 GMT
Actually that's not accurate. Even Lucas gave us differing views of how the force could be used. Palpatine for example was the first to use force lightning in the 3rd movie; a power we hadn't seen until then. And the confusing Jedi's vanish when they die thing. And don't get me started on the OT.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Dec 19, 2017 19:01:50 GMT
Actually that's not accurate. Even Lucas gave us differing views of how the force could be used. Palpatine for example was the first to use force lightning in the 3rd movie; a power we hadn't seen until then. And the confusing Jedi's vanish when they die thing. And don't get me started on the OT.
It's not a power...any force user could use force lightning...it's a semi-directed release of energy. Granted, since it's an outward use of the force, it's driven by emotion(dark side). Not all Jedi vanish when they die. He retcons this eventually.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 19, 2017 19:21:32 GMT
Actually that's not accurate. Even Lucas gave us differing views of how the force could be used. Palpatine for example was the first to use force lightning in the 3rd movie; a power we hadn't seen until then. And the confusing Jedi's vanish when they die thing. And don't get me started on the OT.
It's not a power...any force user could use force lightning...it's a semi-directed release of energy. Granted, since it's an outward use of the force, it's driven by emotion(dark side). Not all Jedi vanish when they die. He retcons this eventually. The point being that even Lucas changed the rules a bit too.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 19, 2017 19:35:11 GMT
Those things that you mentioned are artificial constructs that are present in all science fiction or space movies. And that's because if they didn't provide them then the entertainment experience would be nullified. It would cut the sensory experience in half. They have nothing to do with the pre-established laws of a said fictional universe. Leia surviving the vacuum of space is not that hard to accept for me. She wasn't out there for that long and she was just conscious enough to use the force to save herself. Period. I'm fine with that.
The Force is basically a sci-fi/star wars version of magic anyway, so I'm willing to give it a little lee way. Also the parameters of the force have never been clearly defined. In every movie some force user comes up with some new force power to expand what we thought possible, so again lee way.
Fair enough. But I would argue that it's not supported by the lore. Even George Lucas objected to the concept of it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 1:02:28 GMT
I'm at work at home, but I have years of writings on this subject when I get home. The Jedi Training of the OT given to Luke by Yoda was a defensive one driven by blind faith in the Force. The OT carries an arc for Yoda in his concept of the Force that can be easily seen if the story is taken in sequential order but it is clouded by prequel haters who disregard them and by prequel lovers who want them to clarify the OT, not the way it works in the order the story is told. Saga lovers see this arc. I look forward to your essay. And crap, I'm home and I can't find any of my shit anymore! But that's ok I can write it out here, hopefully I don't ramble on too long. In the prequels, Yoda was a beloved master, a great individual who had served the Jedi for hundreds of years doing the same things over and over. George Lucas wasn't just talking about the old Republic when he said this: This statement included the Jedi Order towards the end of the Republic, and absolutely Yoda. Over several hundred years the Jedi Order had become Generals in the Army if the Republic, waging war when necessary, hardly the passive listeners to the Force that Yoda described at Dagobah to Luke. The wielder of a walking stick once wielded his own saber with incredible skill and taught these others how to fight with it. He admitted that the Jedi had started showing arrogance as he literally sat in an ivory tower overlooking the world that he had severed all "attachments" to. Yoda and Windu knew that they were being blinded to the dark side, and they thought that it was because the dark side was blocking their Force abilities, but it was their own arrogance that was blinding them, and even the Emperor could see that, as he even point it out to Yoda before their great battle Humbled in defeat, Yoda realizes that even with hundreds of years of experience, that something must have been missing as he ponders. And then the Ghost of Qui Gon contacts him, and begins his training of how the earlier Jedi communed with the Force: The secret of the Ancient Order of the Whills? What, those damn books??? YODA WAS TRAINED IN BETWEEN THE PT AND THE OT ABOUT THE EARLIER JEDI???!!! Then 20 years later, after training with Qui Gon over the secret of the Ancient Order we have the Yoda of the OT, so changed in his demeanor, reverent to the Force and why does he contradict himself so much from the way the Jedi were depicted in the PT??: The Force is his Ally? When was the Force referred by Yoda as anything like that before?? Here we see a pacifist calm Yoda, one that believes that calmness, peace, letting something you cannot see or feel guide you, not be used as a tool. Yoda's transfomation from Late Republic General Ivory Tower Detached Jedi to Communing in the dirt Humble Jedi was complete. (Yoda's Arc) Yoda became one with the Force shortly thereafter. He taught Luke how to feel and commune with the Force, not lord over it. And when Luke realized seeing what his own rage had done to Vader, exposing the wiring that was reflective of own hand and that his fighting his father was only going to perpetuate the darkness, he understood what that Faith that Yoda had spoken of was really about. So he threw down his weapon in full Faith of the Force and his Father. And he won. Let's just hope that the Journals are unchanged from George's vision when they are revealed in episode 9.
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 20, 2017 5:20:40 GMT
They're taking liberties with it just to make some fun scenes... it's becoming the magic fans apparently want it to be. Harry Potter in space is not interesting to me.Exactly what I hi-lighted in bold! I had a conversation about this regarding TFA on a forum. Someone was defending it. The conversation eventually progressed to me saying "Well if the Force is going to be like certain things that I saw in TFA, then in the next movie we will have Rey using the Force to fly around and fly through space!" Well guess what happened in TLJ?!?... Mary Poppins Leia!!!LOL!!
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Post by Surly on Dec 20, 2017 5:23:32 GMT
Please give me an example of this in this film. Then we will go to Dagobah and talk about the cave. Carrie Poppins.
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Post by Surly on Dec 20, 2017 5:26:51 GMT
I'm not even sure what you're saying right now. Let's simplify: you claim Leia saved herself by flying through outer space. I would like for you to define how she was able to make this decision without being conscious. I'm saying she came to, and used the Force to pull herself to safety, before collapsing at that door. She sure looked conscious to me as she flew. Are you saying her limp body flew to the door?
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 20, 2017 16:50:36 GMT
I'm saying she came to, and used the Force to pull herself to safety, before collapsing at that door. She sure looked conscious to me as she flew. Are you saying her limp body flew to the door? Listen, if you think she got blown up, marooned in space where she can't breath, somehow the lack of oxygen worked to her advantage and woke her up, she then propelled (not "pulled") herself to safety using powers never before seen in SW lore and then passed out - again - well, I guess you got me. But no, what I saw was not Leia waking up. I saw a certain-to-be-dead Leia invigorated by the Force itself, animated by the Force itself, delivered to safety and returned by the Force to her unconscious, inanimate state of being once delivered. That's what I saw. Maybe I saw it wrong. Can't it be both? The Force (that is strong in her family) allowed her to survive longer in space than say Akbar, and that living force allowed her to become conscious again... She then willed herself to use the force to pull herself to safety.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 17:06:15 GMT
Listen, if you think she got blown up, marooned in space where she can't breath, somehow the lack of oxygen worked to her advantage and woke her up, she then propelled (not "pulled") herself to safety using powers never before seen in SW lore and then passed out - again - well, I guess you got me. But no, what I saw was not Leia waking up. I saw a certain-to-be-dead Leia invigorated by the Force itself, animated by the Force itself, delivered to safety and returned by the Force to her unconscious, inanimate state of being once delivered. That's what I saw. Maybe I saw it wrong. Can't it be both? The Force (that is strong in her family) allowed her to survive longer in space than say Akbar, and that living force allowed her to become conscious again... She then willed herself to use the force to pull herself to safety. Nah, fix your sign-off first. It's not even factually accurate.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 20, 2017 17:07:24 GMT
Listen, if you think she got blown up, marooned in space where she can't breath, somehow the lack of oxygen worked to her advantage and woke her up, she then propelled (not "pulled") herself to safety using powers never before seen in SW lore and then passed out - again - well, I guess you got me. But no, what I saw was not Leia waking up. I saw a certain-to-be-dead Leia invigorated by the Force itself, animated by the Force itself, delivered to safety and returned by the Force to her unconscious, inanimate state of being once delivered. That's what I saw. Maybe I saw it wrong. Can't it be both? The Force (that is strong in her family) allowed her to survive longer in space than say Akbar, and that living force allowed her to become conscious again... She then willed herself to use the force to pull herself to safety. It's nonsense by the nature of the Force that has existed in the other 2 trilogies. And even ridiculous by the standards of the canon animated series. It's Disney magic, plain and simple.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 20, 2017 17:52:03 GMT
I look forward to your essay. Let's just hope that the Journals are unchanged from George's vision when they are revealed in episode 9. You're assuming that they WILL be reveled in Ep 9. If it goes the way TLJ did the books might just slip out of Rey's hand into a campfire. Or she might open them and they don't say anything at all. Or better yet, THEY'RE JUST ILLUSIONS AND THEY FADE AWAY FROM EXERTION.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 20, 2017 17:57:47 GMT
Another issue to discuss:
Snoke brought together the minds of Rey and Kylo in a bid to manipulate them. That means he also united their minds with his own as he was the one doing the deed. A kind of three way mind meld. All this over many light years that separated them, and seemingly with no sweat.
Yet Luke cant cast an illusion without dying from exertion?
Wouldn't Luke be as strong in the force, at this point of his mastery, as Snoke?
Thoughts?
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 20, 2017 18:47:18 GMT
Can't it be both? The Force (that is strong in her family) allowed her to survive longer in space than say Akbar, and that living force allowed her to become conscious again... She then willed herself to use the force to pull herself to safety. It's nonsense by the nature of the Force that has existed in the other 2 trilogies. And even ridiculous by the standards of the canon animated series. It's Disney magic, plain and simple. I very much disagree that it's not consistent with the previous trilogies. I have never seen the Animated series, so I can't comment.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 20, 2017 18:52:47 GMT
It's nonsense by the nature of the Force that has existed in the other 2 trilogies. And even ridiculous by the standards of the canon animated series. It's Disney magic, plain and simple. I very much disagree that it's not consistent with the previous trilogies. I have never seen the Animated series, so I can't comment. The force being something she can sense and control does not maker her human cells more robust than another...her cells aren't like those from The Thing, and wont work independently, in the force, to subconsciously keep the whole assembly alive. No, it's definitely something new, and just on there for dramatic effect and to kill Ackbar.
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 20, 2017 19:03:43 GMT
I very much disagree that it's not consistent with the previous trilogies. I have never seen the Animated series, so I can't comment. The force being something she can sense and control does not maker her human cells more robust than another...her cells aren't like those from The Thing, and wont work independently, in the force, to subconsciously keep the whole assembly alive. No, it's definitely something new, and just on there for dramatic effect and to kill Ackbar. So is there no belief that being attuned to The Force can extend your life? In effect making cells more robust? Medichlorians are dumb, but they are canon and could easily be something that makes you more resilient. I have always believed that Yoda only aged to 900 years due to his deep connection with The Force.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Dec 20, 2017 19:42:18 GMT
The force being something she can sense and control does not maker her human cells more robust than another...her cells aren't like those from The Thing, and wont work independently, in the force, to subconsciously keep the whole assembly alive. No, it's definitely something new, and just on there for dramatic effect and to kill Ackbar. So is there no belief that being attuned to The Force can extend your life? In effect making cells more robust? Medichlorians are dumb, but they are canon and could easily be something that makes you more resilient. I have always believed that Yoda only aged to 900 years due to his deep connection with The Force. And I believed it was because he's a little green alien. Obi-Wan aged like a normal human...
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 20, 2017 19:45:18 GMT
So is there no belief that being attuned to The Force can extend your life? In effect making cells more robust? Medichlorians are dumb, but they are canon and could easily be something that makes you more resilient. I have always believed that Yoda only aged to 900 years due to his deep connection with The Force. And I believed it was because he's a little green alien. Obi-Wan aged like a normal human... And potentially could have lived for 200 more if he were not killed by Vader.
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Post by ryboto on Dec 20, 2017 19:59:31 GMT
And I believed it was because he's a little green alien. Obi-Wan aged like a normal human... And potentially could have lived for 200 more if he were not killed by Vader. Says who? Where is that implied? The only thing I've read in the EU that's similar, is that they can use the force to heal and to a lesser extent, slow aging, but it's a specific use of the force, it isn't some passive function that happens just because you use the force.
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Post by Larcen26 on Dec 20, 2017 20:03:32 GMT
And potentially could have lived for 200 more if he were not killed by Vader. Says who? Where is that implied? The only thing I've read in the EU that's similar, is that they can use the force to heal and to a lesser extent, slow aging, but it's a specific use of the force, it isn't some passive function that happens just because you use the force. “When 900 years old, you reach… Look as good, you will not.” Implying Luke can reach 900 years old.
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