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Post by moviemouth on Oct 7, 2017 22:12:54 GMT
It's really incoherent to suggest a separation between "best" and "favorite." I can walk you through why, but I'm not going to bother unless you're willing to play the game. I promise to only be inquisive, not a jerk. I don't think you realize what you have gotten yourself into.  |
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Post by Flynn on Oct 7, 2017 22:27:13 GMT
I've given it some thought, and I'd like to "play the game." I promise to only be inquisive, not a jerk. I don't think you realize what you have gotten yourself into. Oh I do. I've had my back-and-forth with Terrapin like many others here. I think it was in the so-bad-it's-good-movies thread. We had quite the heated disagreement, where he accused my posts of being without logic and I called his stance naively rigid. He has a tendency to call things incoherent that I find quite coherent. Despite our disagreements, though, he's actually a pretty thoughtful guy. I've agreed with some of his other posts, and honestly, I'm kind of interested in hearing what he has to say on this topic. |
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 7, 2017 22:29:24 GMT
I don't think you realize what you have gotten yourself into. Oh I do. I've had my back-and-forth with Terrapin like many others here. I think it was in the so-bad-it's-good-movies thread. We had quite the heated disagreement, where he accused my posts of being without logic and I called his stance naively rigid. He has a tendency to call things incoherent that I find quite coherent. Despite our disagreements, though, he's actually a pretty thoughtful guy. I've agreed with some of his other posts, and honestly, I'm kind of interested in hearing what he has to say on this topic. It will be the exact same debate as the "so bad it's good" debate. I got so annoyed with him that I just ignore anything he says now. I have no patience for people who don't understand differing POV. |
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Post by Flynn on Oct 7, 2017 22:34:47 GMT
Oh I do. I've had my back-and-forth with Terrapin like many others here. I think it was in the so-bad-it's-good-movies thread. We had quite the heated disagreement, where he accused my posts of being without logic and I called his stance naively rigid. He has a tendency to call things incoherent that I find quite coherent. Despite our disagreements, though, he's actually a pretty thoughtful guy. I've agreed with some of his other posts, and honestly, I'm kind of interested in hearing what he has to say on this topic. It will be the exact same debate as the "so bad it's good" debate. I got so annoyed with him that I just ignore anything he says now. I have no patience for people who don't understand differing POV. Yeah, I get that. I got so frustrated with him too that I just stopped trying. In this case, I'm the one trying to understand his perspective rather than trying to convince him of mind, so I think it will work out better. Wish me luck. |
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 7, 2017 22:36:59 GMT
It will be the exact same debate as the "so bad it's good" debate. I got so annoyed with him that I just ignore anything he says now. I have no patience for people who don't understand differing POV. Yeah, I get that. I got so frustrated with him too that I just stopped trying. In this case, I'm the one trying to understand his perspective rather than trying to convince him of mind, so I think it will work out better. Wish me luck. The difference is that I do understand his perspective (I just don't agree with it) but he is unable of understanding other people's percpectives from what I have seen. |
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Post by Flynn on Oct 7, 2017 22:53:13 GMT
I've given it some thought, and I'd like to "play the game." I promise to only be inquisive, not a jerk. Sure. So let's start with at least a rough proposal of what a difference between "best" and "favorite" would be in your view. This was a hard choice because I have so many choices to choose from, but here goes... Best CITIZEN KANE (1940) I'm not choosing CK because it's frequently on the list of best films ever. I'm choosing it because I truly believe in its greatness. Every time I watch this film, I get something new out of it. It could be in the cinematography, the music, the dialogue, the acting, oh gosh, it goes on and on. With that said, however, I don't enjoy this movie very much. I'll watch it every five or so years. It's so rich in meaning that I can't partake all that often, yet I do have a very positive attitude toward this film. Favorite FRATERNITY VACATION (1985) This movie is a cheap '80s teen sex comedy. I used to watch it every year, but it's been ten years now since I've seen it in its entirety. Still, I regard it as a delight. It has dialogue I love quoting, and I love the interplay of the characters. I also love the theme of the film, that it hurts to feel left out. With that said, I would never regard this as a great film. I mostly enjoy the interplay of the characters, who seem to be having fun in their parts. The cinematography, though competent, is never meaningful. Neither is the dialogue. There are no interrelationships, no broad connections, no hidden bits of meaning. It's all on the surface. Well, maybe there's a little subtext, especially in the music. If you were to ask me for a recommendation of a great film, CK would win most often, but if you were to ask me to recommend a personal favorite, FV would be at or near the top of the list. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Oct 8, 2017 0:22:14 GMT
Sure. So let's start with at least a rough proposal of what a difference between "best" and "favorite" would be in your view. This was a hard choice because I have so many choices to choose from, but here goes... Best CITIZEN KANE (1940) I'm not choosing CK because it's frequently on the list of best films ever. I'm choosing it because I truly believe in its greatness. Every time I watch this film, I get something new out of it. It could be in the cinematography, the music, the dialogue, the acting, oh gosh, it goes on and on. With that said, however, I don't enjoy this movie very much. I'll watch it every five or so years. It's so rich in meaning that I can't partake all that often, yet I do have a very positive attitude toward this film. Favorite FRATERNITY VACATION (1985) This movie is a cheap '80s teen sex comedy. I used to watch it every year, but it's been ten years now since I've seen it in its entirety. Still, I regard it as a delight. It has dialogue I love quoting, and I love the interplay of the characters. I also love the theme of the film, that it hurts to feel left out. With that said, I would never regard this as a great film. I mostly enjoy the interplay of the characters, who seem to be having fun in their parts. The cinematography, though competent, is never meaningful. Neither is the dialogue. There are no interrelationships, no broad connections, no hidden bits of meaning. It's all on the surface. Well, maybe there's a little subtext, especially in the music. If you were to ask me for a recommendation of a great film, CK would win most often, but if you were to ask me to recommend a personal favorite, FV would be at or near the top of the list. Right, so the first thing to realize is that when you're assessing films, you're not just assessing them overall. You're assessing the cinematography, the music, the story, the dialogue, the theme, the interplay of the characters, and all sorts of things. In all of those things, you're assessing how much you like or dislike those various elements, and you're not weighting all of those things equally in all situations. Do you agree with that? |
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Post by Flynn on Oct 8, 2017 18:09:51 GMT
Partly, but I feel there's more to it than that.
I should probably disclose that I have a Ph.D. in music theory and that my career involves the analysis of artistic works. I have a better grasp than the average film viewer regarding the distinction between the things I'm drawn to personally, which are based my life experiences, such as when and where I grew up, the attitudes about art of the people around me, what I find familiar, etc, and the qualities of art I recognize as good, which is based on training, careful study and examination, and an understanding of the craft involved in its creation. I see a lot of people on message boards who conflate the two, thinking that what they view as good personally is good universally, but I just chalk that up to a lack of introspection and training.
So, to get back to your initial statement, when I personally evaluate a film (or other artwork), I have two tracks (at least) of evaluation going on simultaneously, one based on my personal preferences and one based on my understanding of quality. The two can mix, as certainly my appreciation of quality becomes my life experience, but the two are not necessarily related.
But let's continue. Let's say I agree with you.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Oct 8, 2017 18:16:27 GMT
Partly, but I feel there's more to it than that. I should probably disclose that I have a Ph.D. in music theory and that my career involves the analysis of artistic works. I have a better grasp than the average film viewer regarding the distinction between the things I'm drawn to personally, which are based my life experiences, such as when and where I grew up, the attitudes about art of the people around me, what I find familiar, etc, and the qualities of art I recognize as good, which is based on training, careful study and examination, and an understanding of the craft involved in its creation. I see a lot of people on message boards who conflate the two, thinking that what they view as good personally is good universally, but I just chalk that up to a lack of introspection and training. So, to get back to your initial statement, when I personally evaluate a film (or other artwork), I have two tracks (at least) of evaluation going on simultaneously, one based on my personal preferences and one based on my understanding of quality. The two can mix, as certainly my appreciation of quality becomes my life experience, but the two are not necessarily related. But let's continue. Let's say I agree with you. Re your degree--cool; one of my PhDs is also in music theory/composition. (The other is in philosophy.) Okay, so what would you take to be an example of quality that has nothing to do with personal preference? (Also, just for future reference, if you could make sure that my user name is hyperlinked in your reply, that will greatly lessen the chance that I'll miss your post . . . I know the editing of posts here can be frustrating, but that would help because then I'll get a notification.) |
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Post by Flynn on Oct 11, 2017 1:27:27 GMT
Partly, but I feel there's more to it than that. I should probably disclose that I have a Ph.D. in music theory and that my career involves the analysis of artistic works. I have a better grasp than the average film viewer regarding the distinction between the things I'm drawn to personally, which are based my life experiences, such as when and where I grew up, the attitudes about art of the people around me, what I find familiar, etc, and the qualities of art I recognize as good, which is based on training, careful study and examination, and an understanding of the craft involved in its creation. I see a lot of people on message boards who conflate the two, thinking that what they view as good personally is good universally, but I just chalk that up to a lack of introspection and training. So, to get back to your initial statement, when I personally evaluate a film (or other artwork), I have two tracks (at least) of evaluation going on simultaneously, one based on my personal preferences and one based on my understanding of quality. The two can mix, as certainly my appreciation of quality becomes my life experience, but the two are not necessarily related. But let's continue. Let's say I agree with you. Re your degree--cool; one of my PhDs is also in music theory/composition. (The other is in philosophy.) Okay, so what would you take to be an example of quality that has nothing to do with personal preference? (Also, just for future reference, if you could make sure that my user name is hyperlinked in your reply, that will greatly lessen the chance that I'll miss your post . . . I know the editing of posts here can be frustrating, but that would help because then I'll get a notification.) This is a difficult question to answer because these are movies I don't watch often, so I don't keep them in my head. I guess I could go with Citizen Kane since it's not a movie that appeals to my personal tastes, but I'm sure there's a better one out there if I were to think longer. |
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Post by mslo79 on Oct 11, 2017 6:05:10 GMT
Nope. it's like trying to do that with movies... it's pointless. because at the end of the day it's all about personal enjoyment and our personal preferences are all that really matter as there is no point in trying to say Actor A is 'better' than 'Actor B' if you generally prefer the overall presence of Actor B and Actor B's movies etc. you get the gist  so basically... those with a stronger screen presence (which is usually tied to general charisma etc) tend to be higher up the chain than those who do not have that as strongly. it's pretty much what separates the a-list stars from your typical so-called 'a-listers' etc. plus, like i always say i think what ultimately makes or breaks actors/actresses in general is whether they appear in movies people tend to remember as time passes. |
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Post by sostie on Oct 11, 2017 8:37:15 GMT
I'd go with favourites. If I was to do a list I'm sure there would be plenty of excellent, skillful, much awarded actors lower on the list than Jason Statham. I know he's not a great actor but he is one of my favourites. Ditto Jackie Chan.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Oct 11, 2017 11:40:48 GMT
Re your degree--cool; one of my PhDs is also in music theory/composition. (The other is in philosophy.) Okay, so what would you take to be an example of quality that has nothing to do with personal preference? (Also, just for future reference, if you could make sure that my user name is hyperlinked in your reply, that will greatly lessen the chance that I'll miss your post . . . I know the editing of posts here can be frustrating, but that would help because then I'll get a notification.) This is a difficult question to answer because these are movies I don't watch often, so I don't keep them in my head. I guess I could go with Citizen Kane since it's not a movie that appeals to my personal tastes, but I'm sure there's a better one out there if I were to think longer. Okay, but let's get into specifics. Just what do you think is quality about Citizen Kane that has nothing to do with personal preference? |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 11, 2017 14:46:33 GMT
I Think there is a differece I agree. There are movie stars, and there are actors. Arnold Schwarzenneger is a movie star. Robert DeNiro is an actor (who has since become only a movie star).
Tom Cruise - one of my favorite movie stars Daniel Day Lewis - one of the best actors ever IMO Leonardo DiCaprio - someone who does a little of both
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Post by politicidal on Oct 11, 2017 15:09:07 GMT
Yes.
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Post by Flynn on Oct 12, 2017 0:02:23 GMT
This is a difficult question to answer because these are movies I don't watch often, so I don't keep them in my head. I guess I could go with Citizen Kane since it's not a movie that appeals to my personal tastes, but I'm sure there's a better one out there if I were to think longer. Okay, but let's get into specifics. Just what do you think is quality about Citizen Kane that has nothing to do with personal preference? I can see where you are headed. Thanks for the conversation, but there's no need to proceed any further. I understand, and I appreciate the time you've given to our exchange. |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Oct 12, 2017 0:19:32 GMT
Okay, but let's get into specifics. Just what do you think is quality about Citizen Kane that has nothing to do with personal preference? I can see where you are headed. Thanks for the conversation, but there's no need to proceed any further. I understand, and I appreciate the time you've given to our exchange. No problem. Glad you were at least slightly interested. |
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