|
Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 21:30:11 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is part for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Right on. The difference is he felt it but for someone like him strong with the force it's like living it. I'm glad they didn't show anything like a freaking montage. Aaargh. I didn't even like the flashbacks... They telling what happened no flashbacks would be better. On that we agree.
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 3, 2018 21:39:16 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. The Emperor was his nephew? I didn't realize Luke was mafia and that trying to murder a guy was all good as long as they weren't family. Though, in a way, The Emperor was technically his grandfather, so there's that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 21:43:31 GMT
A moment of weakness and darkness in himself when he saw what had destroyed so much coming back in his Nephew? Fear is a quick and easy path to darkness and he was afraid for that moment. He stopped himself, that was Luke's power. I do agree the exposition of getting to that point had a great deal to be desired. Execution is everything. I wonder if a five-second quick clip of Luke seeing Snoke doing something dark and evil and then Kylo killing Han, attacking Leia's ship, attacking Luke, burning the temple, slicing up Tekka, etc. would have changed viewer's minds about how Luke could have had a reflexive moment. It could have actually been a great, horrific scene and even a perfect place to bring in old Wilhelm. Alas, the execution suuuuuuucked. I think if that's what he saw, then Luke's leaving his friends with foreknowledge that Kylo would kill them would have been even worse than what we got. I would have been happy with something about what was going on driving the wedge between Kylo and his parents and what drove him to Snoke.
|
|
|
Post by President Ackbar™ on Jan 3, 2018 21:43:59 GMT
The Emperor was his nephew? I didn't realize Luke was mafia and that trying to murder a guy was all good as long as they weren't family. Though, in a way, The Emperor was technically his grandfather, so there's that. Excuse me? Source?
|
|
ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
|
Post by ryboto on Jan 3, 2018 21:46:54 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Like that time he was still learning to control his fear but was still trying to turn his father back to the light after years as a mass murderer? Like that time he was still inexperienced and driven by emotion? Luke even considering murder over attempting to help redeem or turn his nephew is not consistent. The Emperor is not Luke's family, and there was nothing left to return to the 'light'.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 21:49:30 GMT
Execution is everything. I wonder if a five-second quick clip of Luke seeing Snoke doing something dark and evil and then Kylo killing Han, attacking Leia's ship, attacking Luke, burning the temple, slicing up Tekka, etc. would have changed viewer's minds about how Luke could have had a reflexive moment. It could have actually been a great, horrific scene and even a perfect place to bring in old Wilhelm. Alas, the execution suuuuuuucked. I think if that's what he saw, then Luke's leaving his friends with foreknowledge that Kylo would kill them would have been even worse than what we got. For me it would have been better than his Bilbo-Baggins-going-after-Precious-like-a-maniac-in-TFOTR look that we got. I would have liked that too, but what does that do to better explain Luke's near-murder scene?
|
|
|
Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 21:51:51 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Like that time he was still learning to control his fear but was still trying to turn his father back to the light after years as a mass murderer? Like that time he was still inexperienced and driven by emotion? Luke even considering murder over attempting to help redeem or turn his nephew is not consistent. The Emperor is not Luke's family, and there was nothing left to return to the 'light'. it was a fleeting moment... Not some debate should I do it. It was literally seconds. Kylo woke up in the worst possible moment and got the wrong, and it was wrong, Luke would never kill his nephew, he didn't and he wouldn't. But explain that to a kid that is already convinced his uncle is the enemy.
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 3, 2018 22:04:51 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Like that time he was still learning to control his fear but was still trying to turn his father back to the light after years as a mass murderer? Like that time he was still inexperienced and driven by emotion? Luke even considering murder over attempting to help redeem or turn his nephew is not consistent. The Emperor is not Luke's family, and there was nothing left to return to the 'light'. So, basically, it's not consistent, except those times I mentioned where it totally is, but, "that was different!" Right. Either the OT set up a foundation for Luke's character, or it didn't. Get your story straight before attempting to argue any further. I also seem to remember someone telling Luke before either of those scenes "No more training do you require. Already know that which you need." But whatever. Also, the Emperor and his mentor used the force to impregnate Ani's mom, so he kind of is family. Either way, after witnessing multiple characters try and fail to redeem Kylo, safe to say Luke had the right idea that there wasn't much light in little Kylo, either. Rather than brutally attack and chop Kylo Ren's hand off and THEN say "no, wait, I'm a Jedi like my father before me", he didn't attack at all. See? Progress.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:09:48 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Yes and yes. With the Emperor, his friends were in immediate danger. He also acted out of anger. We know, based on the story in ROTJ, that Luke was not emotionally mature. Recall Yoda's response when prompted about Luke's statement that he was a Jedi Knight: "Not yet." So then AFTER Luke tried to kill the Emperor, he did as Yoda demanded (confronted Vader) and got the result Yoda predicted (only then a Jedi will you be) when he chose not to slay his father. This pinnacle moment marks Luke's graduation into being a true Jedi (he even vocalizes it immediately afterward) and from this point forward, we expect Luke to be the same Luke who spared his father's life because he has evolved past a certain threshold. And then you completely understate what happened with Vader. Let's not forget that Vader is hunting him down at this moment, attempting to kill him. Meanwhile, Kylo slept. Apples: meet oranges.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:16:00 GMT
Like that time he was still learning to control his fear but was still trying to turn his father back to the light after years as a mass murderer? Like that time he was still inexperienced and driven by emotion? Luke even considering murder over attempting to help redeem or turn his nephew is not consistent. The Emperor is not Luke's family, and there was nothing left to return to the 'light'. Also, the Emperor and his mentor used the force to impregnate Ani's mom False. That was Plagueis' seed alone. You'll be singing a different tune when Rey turns him good in Ep IX: The Sexual Healing of the Force
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 3, 2018 22:37:38 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Yes and yes. With the Emperor, his friends were in immediate danger. He also acted out of anger. We know, based on the story in ROTJ, that Luke was not emotionally mature. Recall Yoda's response when prompted about Luke's statement that he was a Jedi Knight: "Not yet." So then AFTER Luke tried to kill the Emperor, he did as Yoda demanded (confronted Vader) and got the result Yoda predicted (only then a Jedi will you be) when he chose not to slay his father. This pinnacle moment marks Luke's graduation into being a true Jedi (he even vocalizes it immediately afterward) and from this point forward, we expect Luke to be the same Luke who spared his father's life because he has evolved past a certain threshold. And then you completely understate what happened with Vader. Let's not forget that Vader is hunting him down at this moment, attempting to kill him. Meanwhile, Kylo slept. Apples: meet oranges. His violent attack on Vader had nothing to do with Vader walking around the room half-heartedly looking for him. You know, I know, Luke knows, and the entire audience knows that Vader was not trying to kill Luke, but provoke him. And it worked. For a reason. Luke has the same weakness his father did. It's a nice fantasy that those impulses would magically disappear after sparing one guy, but probably unrealistic. And at the end of the day, to the credit no one here is giving him, he fought those impulses and didn't attack Kylo Ren.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:41:25 GMT
Yes and yes. With the Emperor, his friends were in immediate danger. He also acted out of anger. We know, based on the story in ROTJ, that Luke was not emotionally mature. Recall Yoda's response when prompted about Luke's statement that he was a Jedi Knight: "Not yet." So then AFTER Luke tried to kill the Emperor, he did as Yoda demanded (confronted Vader) and got the result Yoda predicted (only then a Jedi will you be) when he chose not to slay his father. This pinnacle moment marks Luke's graduation into being a true Jedi (he even vocalizes it immediately afterward) and from this point forward, we expect Luke to be the same Luke who spared his father's life because he has evolved past a certain threshold. And then you completely understate what happened with Vader. Let's not forget that Vader is hunting him down at this moment, attempting to kill him. Meanwhile, Kylo slept. Apples: meet oranges. His violent attack on Vader had nothing to do with Vader walking around the room half-heartedly looking for him. You know, I know, Luke knows, and the entire audience knows that Vader was not trying to kill Luke, but provoke him. I beg to differ. I think you're missing Vader's evolution and resolution in a previous scene: If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny!
|
|
shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 1,782
|
Post by shinnickneth on Jan 3, 2018 22:41:53 GMT
In fairness, Kylo is at least 25 in that scene. But nonetheless, they did not convince us that Luke would do something like that. Oh, I thought he was suppose to be a teen in that scene. Hmmmmm...
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 3, 2018 22:45:18 GMT
Also, the Emperor and his mentor used the force to impregnate Ani's mom False. That was Plagueis' seed alone. You'll be singing a different tune when Rey turns him good in Ep IX: The Sexual Healing of the Force I've always heard it as both of them. And if that happens, you guys win.
|
|
|
Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 22:49:15 GMT
Out of character and inconsistent with that time he tried to chop The Emperor while the rebel fleet was getting destroyed? Out of character and inconsistent with that time he went full-Kylo Ren on Vader at the mere suggestion that Vader could maybe turn Leia to the dark side? Luke having moments of attempted murder to save others (in this case, Kylo's future victims) is par for the course. And here, he didn't even get that far. Yes and yes. With the Emperor, his friends were in immediate danger. He also acted out of anger. We know, based on the story in ROTJ, that Luke was not emotionally mature. Recall Yoda's response when prompted about Luke's statement that he was a Jedi Knight: "Not yet." So then AFTER Luke tried to kill the Emperor, he did as Yoda demanded (confronted Vader) and got the result Yoda predicted (only then a Jedi will you be) when he chose not to slay his father. This pinnacle moment marks Luke's graduation into being a true Jedi (he even vocalizes it immediately afterward) and from this point forward, we expect Luke to be the same Luke who spared his father's life because he has evolved past a certain threshold. And then you completely understate what happened with Vader. Let's not forget that Vader is hunting him down at this moment, attempting to kill him. Meanwhile, Kylo slept. Apples: meet oranges. being a Jedi doesn't automatically turn you into something you are not. Jedi have doubts, Jedi are still human, with human faults (or alien) a Jedi is not free of the temptations of the dark, or any other kind. That would be stupid and we would never have fallen Jedi or even Vader. That's your perception of reality that is putting Luke in a pedestal where he can't slip. That's the all point of the movie... A legend is only a legend in your head.If you don't get that, well...
|
|
|
Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 3, 2018 22:51:20 GMT
His violent attack on Vader had nothing to do with Vader walking around the room half-heartedly looking for him. You know, I know, Luke knows, and the entire audience knows that Vader was not trying to kill Luke, but provoke him. I beg to differ. I think you're missing Vader's evolution and resolution in a previous scene: If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny! In the next scene when "hunting" Luke he's still saying "Give yourself to the Dark Side". Isn't the whole point that there's good in Vader? He missed that throw on purpose.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:56:03 GMT
False. That was Plagueis' seed alone. You'll be singing a different tune when Rey turns him good in Ep IX: The Sexual Healing of the Force I've always heard it as both of them. To be fair, it's a muddled scene. Plagueis and Palpatine were entrenched together in the dark side, they shifted cosmic alignments and caused the imbalance in the Force that we heard about so much in the movies. During this process, Plagueis sent his seed out into the galaxy, but it was only Plagueis who did this part. This whole scene has passed into Legends, though, unfortunately.
It'll happen and we'll all commiserate together. MCUfan will still be on here talking about how good the movie was, though. Hey, I was in your spot after TFA came out. These guys all warned me that I was having the wool pulled over my eyes, but I kept on rigidly defending the movie and its mystery boxes and Mary Sue character. They saw the light after one. I saw the light after two. Maybe it'll take three for you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:57:12 GMT
In fairness, Kylo is at least 25 in that scene. But nonetheless, they did not convince us that Luke would do something like that. Oh, I thought he was suppose to be a teen in that scene. Hmmmmm... In Bloodline - five years before TFA takes place - Kylo is still good little Kylo and is off on an adventure with Luke.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:58:39 GMT
I beg to differ. I think you're missing Vader's evolution and resolution in a previous scene: If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny! He missed that throw on purpose. Really? Really? C'mon bro. it's me you're talking to.
|
|
|
Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 23:02:31 GMT
I've always heard it as both of them. To be fair, it's a muddled scene. Plagueis and Palpatine were entrenched together in the dark side, they shifted cosmic alignments and caused the imbalance in the Force that we heard about so much in the movies. During this process, Plagueis sent his seed out into the galaxy, but it was only Plagueis who did this part. This whole scene has passed into Legends, though, unfortunately.
It'll happen and we'll all commiserate together. MCUfan will still be on here talking about how good the movie was, though. Hey, I was in your spot after TFA came out. These guys all warned me that I was having the wool pulled over my eyes, but I kept on rigidly defending the movie and its mystery boxes and Mary Sue character. They saw the light after one. I saw the light after two. Maybe it'll take three for you. maybe... But for now I'm happy with it. But I'm a little worried about JJ taking the helm again. Star wars is like pizza, though, when it's bad it's still pretty good.
|
|