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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 21:00:05 GMT
Please explain this. I saw her contributing in significant ways that were to the detriment of her allies, but never in a positive way. Y'know, there were heavy criticisms of Mary Sue of Rey. Now we get a character who is not that and she gets criticisms for not beinggood enough. Which is it?
It's not a question of either/or. It's not a question of black/white (or Asian). It's not a question of male/female. It's not a question of power/weakness. It's a question of whether something is done well or not. But to stay on the example you've cited, let's look at Leia in the OT. Never exhibits any special powers, yet we can cite a dozen ways her actions and suggestions help her allies achieve good results. And none of them are contrived. They all flow naturally, thus, they are all believable. At no point do any of Rose's actions or suggestions help her allies, and yet, miraculously, the character feels contrived.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 21:01:39 GMT
Not that funny and kinda cruel. How about this pic instead?
Whoever this is, they should put her in a SW movie. I can tell she's a much better character.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 9, 2018 21:50:49 GMT
Up until the beginning of the story she was a mechanic/techie type. Then she meets Finn and is instrumental in a mission that helps the resistance.
How was she instrumental in a positive way within the actions of completing that mission and how did the mission itself help the Resistance? Everything I saw her mess up was 100% her fault. Did somebody else fly that craft into Finn's craft? Did Force Ghost Yoda take the wheel for a minute? A) That mission would have led to the destruction of that device on the bad guys ship and thus helping the resistance escape. Its not her fault that the mission wasn't successful. That asshole betrayed them.
B) That's your interpretation. Mine is that she saved Finns life by not letting him give it away meaninglessly. Finns little aircraft wasn't going to destroy that big ass cannon. It was like a fly buzzing a giant. Poe and the others knew that. That's why they backed off.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 9, 2018 21:59:17 GMT
Y'know, there were heavy criticisms of Mary Sue of Rey. Now we get a character who is not that and she gets criticisms for not beinggood enough. Which is it?
It's not a question of either/or. It's not a question of black/white (or Asian). It's not a question of male/female. It's not a question of power/weakness. It's a question of whether something is done well or not. But to stay on the example you've cited, let's look at Leia in the OT. Never exhibits any special powers, yet we can cite a dozen ways her actions and suggestions help her allies achieve good results. And none of them are contrived. They all flow naturally, thus, they are all believable. At no point do any of Rose's actions or suggestions help her allies, and yet, miraculously, the character feels contrived. Leias actions: You mean when she put the most important data the rebellion ever had into a random droid she and sent it wherever in the hopes that it might get to where it was supposed to get to? Instead of just going herself? Or do you mean when she got caught and was a prisoner waiting to be rescued? Or when she bluffed and let her WHOLE PLANET GET DESTROYED? Or maybe you mean when she realizes that "they let us get away" from the Death Star ("its the only explanation for the ease of our escape" [or something like that]) but she still lets the Millenium Falcon go directly to the rebel base on Yavin?
You're right... all of those seem like good results, not contrived, flow naturally, and are believable.
See? If I choose to look at something in a negative light I can interpret things badly too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 22:12:00 GMT
How was she instrumental in a positive way within the actions of completing that mission and how did the mission itself help the Resistance? Everything I saw her mess up was 100% her fault. Did somebody else fly that craft into Finn's craft? Did Force Ghost Yoda take the wheel for a minute? A) That mission would have led to the destruction of that device on the bad guys ship and thus helping the resistance escape. Its not her fault that the mission wasn't successful. That asshole betrayed them. But instead, it led to a majority of the Resistance being wiped out because it was a mission that never should have happened and wasn't approved by leadership. The end result was that Rose's actions made things worse for her allies, not better. Also, let's be honest, if it weren't for Finn, Rose would've flown right back to the Raddus sporting a perma-grin and sans slicer (which was the one and only point of this disastrous mission) because some fathiers were roaming free. Well okay, but just keep in mind that the very act of saving Finn's life is what put the Resistance in a lethal trap, and, ultimately, what led to Luke Skywalker's death.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 9, 2018 22:18:16 GMT
I did not dislike her specifically, but I thought she was a bland and badly written token character. Some points:
3) So you take the side of the decadent war mongers? (I do take your point about the kids though; I thought the same; But I also thought it years ago in TPM when Qui-Gon and Obi Wan don't rescue Anakins mother or any of the Mos Espa slaves).
This is not comparable, the situations are different in the movies. Qui Gon acted responsibly and reasonably considering the circumstances, while Rose acted recklessly like a child: As for Qui Gon, there are legal and practical reasons: First, the Outer Rim is not within the jurisdiction of the Jedi/Republic ("the Republic does not exist out here"). Qui Gon is in a foreign country, he would violate his codes and the local law freeing slaves. An European policeman cannot enforce EU laws when in the US or Saudi Arabia, eg freeing convicts sitting on death row, just because death penalty or torture are illegal and immoral in his country. Also, the Jedi were on a delicate, low profile mission to bring the queen secretly to the capital, and they specifically went to Tatooine to not be detected. Qui Gon only freed Anakin (legally) because he realized his potential. AND: he tried to free his mother. Now compare this with Rose who released ALL the animals and destroyed half the city..."because it was worth it, we made them hurt", but not the few beaten slave kids.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 22:29:14 GMT
It's not a question of either/or. It's not a question of black/white (or Asian). It's not a question of male/female. It's not a question of power/weakness. It's a question of whether something is done well or not. But to stay on the example you've cited, let's look at Leia in the OT. Never exhibits any special powers, yet we can cite a dozen ways her actions and suggestions help her allies achieve good results. And none of them are contrived. They all flow naturally, thus, they are all believable. At no point do any of Rose's actions or suggestions help her allies, and yet, miraculously, the character feels contrived. Leias actions: You mean when she put the most important data the rebellion ever had into a random droid she and sent it wherever in the hopes that it might get to where it was supposed to get to? Instead of just going herself? Or do you mean when she got caught and was a prisoner waiting to be rescued? Or when she bluffed and let her WHOLE PLANET GET DESTROYED? Or maybe you mean when she realizes that "they let us get away" from the Death Star ("its the only explanation for the ease of our escape" [or something like that]) but she still lets the Millenium Falcon go directly to the rebel base on Yavin?
You're right... all of those seem like good results, not contrived, flow naturally, and are believable.
See? If I choose to look at something in a negative light I can interpret things badly too.
But your interpretations (regarding Leia) aren't interpretations. They are just flat-out incorrect. Leia had no other choice but to put the plans in the droid (Rose did have other alternatives) and Leia's choice worked out (Rose's did not). There was no other option but getting caught for Leia (Rose had other options and chose poorly). Leia's bluff played zero part in Alderaan getting destroyed (as evidenced by Tarkin's comments in the movie). The reason she "let's" the Falcon fly back to Yavin is explicitly explained in dialogue in the movie, and, AGAIN, her plan works out to her allies' advantage (unlike all of Rose's decisions). It's not a perspective. ANH had much better writing than TLJ. That's it and that's that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 22:31:09 GMT
It's not a question of either/or. It's not a question of black/white (or Asian). It's not a question of male/female. It's not a question of power/weakness. It's a question of whether something is done well or not. But to stay on the example you've cited, let's look at Leia in the OT. Never exhibits any special powers, yet we can cite a dozen ways her actions and suggestions help her allies achieve good results. And none of them are contrived. They all flow naturally, thus, they are all believable. At no point do any of Rose's actions or suggestions help her allies, and yet, miraculously, the character feels contrived. Leias actions: You mean when she put the most important data the rebellion ever had into a random droid she and sent it wherever in the hopes that it might get to where it was supposed to get to? Instead of just going herself? Or do you mean when she got caught and was a prisoner waiting to be rescued? Or when she bluffed and let her WHOLE PLANET GET DESTROYED? Or maybe you mean when she realizes that "they let us get away" from the Death Star ("its the only explanation for the ease of our escape" [or something like that]) but she still lets the Millenium Falcon go directly to the rebel base on Yavin? This is also not true. She knew damn well that the droids were heading to Tatooine.
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Post by audiosane on Jan 9, 2018 23:24:33 GMT
Give me one or two specific reasons you didn't like the Rose character. I recently spoke to someone who said he didn't like her and when I asked why specifically he couldn't give me a real answer. I suppose those of you who didn't like her will be able to give me a better response here since you'll have had time to think about it. But be honest, was she really so bad? And if so, why? I liked Rose overall, but there's two specific moments I didn't like: 1. Finn was behaving like a coward again, but at least he was using his free will to make a decision to run. By Rose tasing and tying him up, she made Finn a slave to the Resistance. I found this scene frustrating. Finn wasn't officially with the Resistance, so he shouldn't have been punished for wanting to leave. 2. Again, Finn was using his free will to make a decision, this time out of bravery. I was on the edge of my seat over the possibility of Finn sacrificing himself for a greater cause, but it was frustrating to watch Rose undermine his free will once again. Then she gave this stupid speech about fighting for who you love, which Finn was doing and what Holdo had done. Rose then gave him a kiss that came out of nowhere before passing out. Besides feeling forced, since Rian never bothered to set up a possible romance between these two, the kiss and coma reminded me of Finn's treatment in TFA.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 9, 2018 23:53:09 GMT
Well okay, but just keep in mind that the very act of saving Finn's life is what put the Resistance in a lethal trap, and, ultimately, what led to Luke Skywalker's death. Now you're giving her actions too much credit!
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 9, 2018 23:59:28 GMT
3) So you take the side of the decadent war mongers? (I do take your point about the kids though; I thought the same; But I also thought it years ago in TPM when Qui-Gon and Obi Wan don't rescue Anakins mother or any of the Mos Espa slaves).
This is not comparable, the situations are different in the movies. Qui Gon acted responsibly and reasonably considering the circumstances, while Rose acted recklessly like a child: As for Qui Gon, there are legal and practical reasons: First, the Outer Rim is not within the jurisdiction of the Jedi/Republic ("the Republic does not exist out here"). Qui Gon is in a foreign country, he would violate his codes and the local law freeing slaves. An European policeman cannot enforce EU laws when in the US or Saudi Arabia, eg freeing convicts sitting on death row, just because death penalty or torture are illegal and immoral in his country. Also, the Jedi were on a delicate, low profile mission to bring the queen secretly to the capital, and they specifically went to Tatooine to not be detected. Qui Gon only freed Anakin (legally) because he realized his potential. AND: he tried to free his mother. Now compare this with Rose who released ALL the animals and destroyed half the city..."because it was worth it, we made them hurt", but not the few beaten slave kids. Agree and disagree. The legal ramifications are of no real concern to me, nor do I believe they would be to a Jedi, and especially not a trend bucking Jedi like Qui-Gon. He practically gambles on the kids life to free the very same kid from slavery but legalities are an issue? I don't think so.
Were Roses actions reckless? Yes. That's the passion she has. She feels. She doesn't care about legalities either. I didn't say she was perfect. But she shouldnt be disliked for it.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 10, 2018 0:02:59 GMT
Leias actions: You mean when she put the most important data the rebellion ever had into a random droid she and sent it wherever in the hopes that it might get to where it was supposed to get to? Instead of just going herself? Or do you mean when she got caught and was a prisoner waiting to be rescued? Or when she bluffed and let her WHOLE PLANET GET DESTROYED? Or maybe you mean when she realizes that "they let us get away" from the Death Star ("its the only explanation for the ease of our escape" [or something like that]) but she still lets the Millenium Falcon go directly to the rebel base on Yavin?
You're right... all of those seem like good results, not contrived, flow naturally, and are believable.
See? If I choose to look at something in a negative light I can interpret things badly too.
But your interpretations (regarding Leia) aren't interpretations. They are just flat-out incorrect. Leia had no other choice but to put the plans in the droid (Rose did have other alternatives) and Leia's choice worked out (Rose's did not). There was no other option but getting caught for Leia (Rose had other options and chose poorly). Leia's bluff played zero part in Alderaan getting destroyed (as evidenced by Tarkin's comments in the movie). The reason she "let's" the Falcon fly back to Yavin is explicitly explained in dialogue in the movie, and, AGAIN, her plan works out to her allies' advantage (unlike all of Rose's decisions). It's not a perspective. ANH had much better writing than TLJ. That's it and that's that. You say tomato...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 10, 2018 0:05:00 GMT
Leias actions: You mean when she put the most important data the rebellion ever had into a random droid she and sent it wherever in the hopes that it might get to where it was supposed to get to? Instead of just going herself? Or do you mean when she got caught and was a prisoner waiting to be rescued? Or when she bluffed and let her WHOLE PLANET GET DESTROYED? Or maybe you mean when she realizes that "they let us get away" from the Death Star ("its the only explanation for the ease of our escape" [or something like that]) but she still lets the Millenium Falcon go directly to the rebel base on Yavin? This is also not true. She knew damn well that the droids were heading to Tatooine. Tatooines an ENTIRE PLANET! Are you sure when throw something the size of R2D2 at the Earth that its not going to land in South America as opposed to Siberia?!
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Post by darkpast on Jan 10, 2018 0:08:25 GMT
They needed to develop Finn's character more, stop adding useless characters.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 10, 2018 0:08:42 GMT
Give me one or two specific reasons you didn't like the Rose character. I recently spoke to someone who said he didn't like her and when I asked why specifically he couldn't give me a real answer. I suppose those of you who didn't like her will be able to give me a better response here since you'll have had time to think about it. But be honest, was she really so bad? And if so, why? I liked Rose overall, but there's two specific moments I didn't like: 1. Finn was behaving like a coward again, but at least he was using his free will to make a decision to run. By Rose tasing and tying him up, she made Finn a slave to the Resistance. I found this scene frustrating. Finn wasn't officially with the Resistance, so he shouldn't have been punished for wanting to leave. 2. Again, Finn was using his free will to make a decision, this time out of bravery. I was on the edge of my seat over the possibility of Finn sacrificing himself for a greater cause, but it was frustrating to watch Rose undermine his free will once again. Then she gave this stupid speech about fighting for who you love, which Finn was doing and what Holdo had done. Rose then gave him a kiss that came out of nowhere before passing out. Besides feeling forced, since Rian never bothered to set up a possible romance between these two, the kiss and coma reminded me of Finn's treatment in TFA. Maybe, but Roses kiss lands on his lips and she mentions love. Whereas Reys kiss lands on his forehead and she mentions friendship. That moment, as corny as it may seem, is the beginning of Finn and Roses romance. At least I hope so. Rey friend zoned my man. You know how hard that is for a brother?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 10, 2018 0:09:08 GMT
They needed to develop Finn's character more, stop adding useless characters. Now thats something I can agree with!
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Post by audiosane on Jan 10, 2018 0:10:23 GMT
1. I don't care for her version (maybe any version) of the whole I'm-laughing-wait-I'm-crying shtick. 2. Her deduction of what made the Canto Bight trip successful was pure cringe.3. The idea to save Finn was pure cringe. 4. The line she delivered after saving Finn was the second cringiest moment of a film that was an all-out cringe fest. All of this but this in bold especially. When she released the animal and was like "now it's worth it" some people in my theater started laughing. - Getting arrested for illegal parking - in Star Wars?! - was dumb. - Meeting up with a code breaker after failing to meet the code breaker you came for was a little too convenient. - Once they escaped their cell, wasting precious time trying to free animals instead of trying to either recruit the code breaker who freed you or the one you were originally after was dumb. - Freeing animals that can easily be recaptured again while leaving the slave children behind was... special. - If you think about it, Finn and Rose were on horseback on their way back to their ship. Were they planning on leaving Canto Bite without taking any code breakers with them?
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Post by President Ackbarâ„¢ on Jan 10, 2018 0:11:37 GMT
They needed to develop Finn's character more, stop adding useless characters. Now thats something I can agree with!
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Post by audiosane on Jan 10, 2018 0:14:38 GMT
They needed to develop Finn's character more, stop adding useless characters. Fans were excited to see Finn's potential shine in the sequels. Now it's clear they don't really have anything for him to do, which is particularly frustrating since Finn has a unique background. Why not have him find his long lost family or try to help free his fellow stormtroopers from their brainwashing? At least that would be a different way to help them defeat the First Order.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 10, 2018 0:49:49 GMT
They needed to develop Finn's character more, stop adding useless characters. Fans were excited to see Finn's potential shine in the sequels. Now it's clear they don't really have anything for him to do, which is particularly frustrating since Finn has a unique background. Why not have him find his long lost family or try to help free his fellow stormtroopers from their brainwashing? At least that would be a different way to help them defeat the First Order. Agreed. Plus I like your story idea. I hope it happens. It's similar to some story ideas I had for him.
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