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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 11, 2018 19:59:40 GMT
How many times do I have to say it?!
Finn's little aircraft was not going to do anything against that big ass cannon. It was ALREADY falling apart. You don't throw a drop in an ocean and expect it to make a difference. Did you not notice EVERYONE else including Poe backing off? Did you not notice all the times they showed some piece of their aircrafts falling off? That was to impress upon you the futility of them defending themselves with those puny ships in those dire circumstances. Those scenes of the crafts falling apart weren't there at random.
Rose saved his life from a futile death.
I guess the rocks being in their way at the end of the tunnel was Roses fault too? If you guys want to ascribe all these negative things to her then you have to ascribe the positives too, which is that she saved his life.
Also the scene worked to make POE finnaly understand, survive to fight another day. The Poe of the beggining would say go for it! Not retreat. ^^^THIS^^^
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 20:08:35 GMT
But that's viewer speculation. The character in the movie seemed to think it would work. Being a well-trained member of the First Order, I think he'd have a decent idea what it might take to destroy a First Order canon. Also speculation. Whereas we know that Luke was going to get involved in the fight eventually because even RJ wasn't stupid enough to just leave him out entirely, we don't know that Luke would show up simply to sacrifice himself. If Rose hadn't foiled Finn's plans, perhaps Luke's interference would have come at a different time or in a different way. Actually, it had everything to do with Luke. He said something to the effect of "If he (Luke) got in here, then there must be a way out." Which is just another example of poor plotting. 1) That's not viewer speculation. It was OBVIOUS to me that his little ship wasn't going to a thing against that big ass cannon. Why wasn't that obvious to you? I think the better question is: "Why wasn't it obvious to Finn?" Was the character who actually had a knowledge-base of such things wrong or are you wrong? But my point is that it only went that way because that's the way RJ decided to write it. In a hypothetical universe where the writing made sense, there would have been a much better plot device laid out for why Luke had to show up and then he would have shown up. I'm not saying what would or would not have happened. Unlike the point two above where the whole debate is based on the hypothetical of "what would have happened if Rose hadn't done something stupid?" In this case, no hypothetical or interpretation is required. The members of the Resistance started seeking a way out based on Poe's deduction that Luke had gotten in, so there must be a way out. It had everything to do with Luke showing up per the script.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 11, 2018 20:27:39 GMT
Finn's death would have made sense though, as it was supposed to stop that battering ram. Had Luke not appeared, had there not been any back passage found, Finn's sacrifice would have made a pretty big difference had it been successful. Rose ruined that for a reason that doesn't make sense. Had Luke not appeared, Rose and Finn and the rest would have died anyway. So she basically stopped Finn from sacrificing himself just so they can get killed a few minutes later. A) Finns death would have been meaningless as he would have died and they still would have gotten through. His little aircraft was not going to destroy that big ass cannon. Its was like a drop in the ocean. His craft was already falling apart.
2) Luke was ALWAYS going to show up to help the resistance. Rose saving Finn did NOT precipitate that. Its in the very drama of the story that Luke was always going to show up.
3) Poe found a way out of the base through good old deduction. He noticed it got quiet and that the crystal creatures weren't around anymore. Nothing to do with Rose/Finn or Luke.
You guys are just adding 2+2 to equal 6 to try to support your dislike for a character that isn't responsible for those actions.
A) There was no indication that it wasn't going to work. Finn was about a second away from crashing into the canon and he wasn't getting torn apart yet. And Finn being the most familiar with the weapons would know better if it would work or not. He was going to slam his pod into the mouth of a canon, probably causing the pod to explode inside the canon. Something outputting that much energy won't take much to destabilize. It's not impossible, we've seen more ridiculous things happen in the SW universe. B) Rose had no way of knowing that Luke would be coming to help the resistance. Meaning her actions to save Finn was both selfish and meaningless. She stopped his meaningful self sacrifice for no reason other than she didn't want him to die... which doesn't make sense because they would be killed pretty soon anyway. Luke's arrival had nothing to do with Rose's decision because she didn't know he was coming. C) Same as B, Rose had no way of knowing that Poe found a way out of the base. So the moment she made the decision, she had no proper reason to base it on. The problem here is, we're giving you valid reason why we don't like Rose... and you're simply disregarding them. So why bother asking for our reasons if you're not willing to listen?
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 11, 2018 20:42:29 GMT
How would Finn's death not have been a good one? He would have saved the Resistance single-handedly and Thanks a lot Rose! How many times do I have to say it?!
Finn's little aircraft was not going to do anything against that big ass cannon. It was ALREADY falling apart. You don't throw a drop in an ocean and expect it to make a difference.
That is a classic ad absurdum argumentation. You misrepresent what was in the film and make characters look incompetent and stupid so that your argument works. - Nothing indicated that Finns sacrifice would have been in vain. Nobody, neither Rose or Poe stated such a thing to stop him...are they stupid? - Instead you interpret the scene against what the movie/dialogue tells us and make Finn look a complete moron who is even to stupid to do have his own heroic kamikaze run work. Are they all stupid or are you just too smart? Misrepresentation of facts. EVERYONE else including Poe backed off because Poe saw that they were blasted into pieces by the Walkers before even coming close, and he ordered retreat - their losses were tooo great. It's his responsible-leader arc coming full circle (in Act 1 he ordered the opposite). They did not back off because realizing that a suicide crash would not destroy the canon. No because only one part of Poes ship fell off, and speeders falling apart does not mean that the plan to destroy the canon would not have worked or Finn's frontal suicide crash would not have succeeded. As stated that is you making fact up that were not in the film, and make Finn look like an idiot too dumb for his heroic suicide run to succeed. Sorry, but I am not convinced.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jan 11, 2018 20:47:21 GMT
How would Finn's death not have been a good one? He would have saved the Resistance single-handedly and Thanks a lot Rose! How many times do I have to say it?!
Finn's little aircraft was not going to do anything against that big ass cannon. It was ALREADY falling apart. You don't throw a drop in an ocean and expect it to make a difference. Did you not notice EVERYONE else including Poe backing off? Did you not notice all the times they showed some piece of their aircrafts falling off? That was to impress upon you the futility of them defending themselves with those puny ships in those dire circumstances. Those scenes of the crafts falling apart weren't there at random.
Rose saved his life from a futile death.
I guess the rocks being in their way at the end of the tunnel was Roses fault too? If you guys want to ascribe all these negative things to her then you have to ascribe the positives too, which is that she saved his life.
She saved his life and therefore caused the death of all the Resistance fighters. Finn's ship would have, at the very least, stopped up the laser and stalled long enough to save everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 20:57:41 GMT
How many times do I have to say it?!
Finn's little aircraft was not going to do anything against that big ass cannon. It was ALREADY falling apart. You don't throw a drop in an ocean and expect it to make a difference. Did you not notice EVERYONE else including Poe backing off? Did you not notice all the times they showed some piece of their aircrafts falling off? That was to impress upon you the futility of them defending themselves with those puny ships in those dire circumstances. Those scenes of the crafts falling apart weren't there at random.
Rose saved his life from a futile death.
I guess the rocks being in their way at the end of the tunnel was Roses fault too? If you guys want to ascribe all these negative things to her then you have to ascribe the positives too, which is that she saved his life.
She saved his life and therefore caused the death of all the Resistance fighters. Finn's ship would have, at the very least, stopped up the laser and stalled long enough to save everyone. When it comes right down to it, the entire plot is absurd. Resistance: Let's retreat into a death cave, but don't worry, we'll katy bar the door with a big door. First Order: Idiots, we have a door canon. Resistance: Well, fuck!
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 11, 2018 21:08:58 GMT
She saved his life and therefore caused the death of all the Resistance fighters. Finn's ship would have, at the very least, stopped up the laser and stalled long enough to save everyone. When it comes right down to it, the entire plot is absurd. Resistance: Let's retreat into a death cave, but don't worry, we'll katy bar the door with a big door. First Order: Idiots, we have a door canon. Resistance: Well, fuck! To be fair, the in-story reason was that they wanted to send a transmission to their allies from the base. Which is a bit dumb, as we have to assume an abandoned old rebel base has equipment capable of that but all those fancy capital ships have not...? Also, their allies seemed not too motivated to answer, would have been a great ending if they escaped into the salt running around on the planet surface like salty chicken.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 21:20:00 GMT
When it comes right down to it, the entire plot is absurd. Resistance: Let's retreat into a death cave, but don't worry, we'll katy bar the door with a big door. First Order: Idiots, we have a door canon. Resistance: Well, fuck! To be fair, the in-story reason was that they wanted to send a transmission to their allies from the base. Which is a bit dumb, as we have to assume an abandoned old rebel base has equipment capable of that but all those fancy capital ships have not...? Also, their allies seemed not too motivated to answer, would have been a great ending if they escaped into the salt running around on the planet surface like salty chicken. Sure, and to be fair, given their circumstances, they didn't have too many other choices. But what put them in the absurd situation where the only thing they could do was put themselves in a steel cage death trap? RJ's ridiculous plotting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 21:25:39 GMT
When it comes right down to it, the entire plot is absurd. Resistance: Let's retreat into a death cave, but don't worry, we'll katy bar the door with a big door. First Order: Idiots, we have a door canon. Resistance: Well, fuck! To be fair, the in-story reason was that they wanted to send a transmission to their allies from the base. Which is a bit dumb, as we have to assume an abandoned old rebel base has equipment capable of that but all those fancy capital ships have not...? Also, their allies seemed not too motivated to answer, would have been a great ending if they escaped into the salt running around on the planet surface like salty chicken. ...and also, if we're being fair, the idea to go into a death trap to call their friends doesn't work out logistically. The First Order is - at most - 20 minutes behind The Resistance. It would take about twenty times that amount of time for any kind of armed force to organize, prep (let's not forget they'll want a full tank of gas, lol), fly to the system where the action is taking place and then make it planet-side. And even if they could get to Crait in time, who's to say they could even make it planet-side? I'm sure the FO's orbiting forces would have something to say about it.
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Post by audiosane on Jan 11, 2018 22:00:39 GMT
Bingo. I either wanted a clue or an image of two people on the mirror along with a brief flashback going back to kid Rey on Jakku. I also wanted to see a flashback that showed Luke training Kylo Ren AND the other Jedi apprentices. It sucks that they only showed Luke and Kylo. But yeah, waste our time on Canto Bite. And then when I got over my initial WTF moment, I thought, "Okay, so she's a clone or a reincarnation. That's what this means, that's why she sees only unending Reys. I...guess I can get behind this idea...let's see where they take it?" And then nope. You're a nobody like the kid on Canto Bite and now nobodies can use the Force to whip trained Jedi in a fight. To quote the only character who (imo) was treated reverently and well in the ST: "That's not how the Force works." Yeah, that was a real trippy WTF scene at first. It's one of those rare moments where I'm like, "Is this real? Is this happening? 0_o" I questioned my own reality for a sec, heh. When the two figures became one before being revealed as Rey, I was like, "Ohhh, are they implying that Rey was reincarnated from Anakin or born of the Force?" After a few seconds, I was like, "Oh, shit. They blue balled me, lol."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 22:03:45 GMT
And then when I got over my initial WTF moment, I thought, "Okay, so she's a clone or a reincarnation. That's what this means, that's why she sees only unending Reys. I...guess I can get behind this idea...let's see where they take it?" And then nope. You're a nobody like the kid on Canto Bite and now nobodies can use the Force to whip trained Jedi in a fight. To quote the only character who (imo) was treated reverently and well in the ST: "That's not how the Force works." Yeah, that was a real trippy WTF scene at first. It's one of those rare moments where I'm like, "Is this real? Is this happening? 0_o" I questioned my own reality for a sec, heh. When the two figures became one before being revealed as Rey, I was like, "Ohhh, are they implying that Rey was reincarnated from Anakin or born of the Force?" After a few seconds, I was like, "Oh, shit. They blue balled me, lol." Ha ha, well, if TFA hadn't gotten us aroused in the first place...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 12, 2018 17:33:55 GMT
I think the better question is: "Why wasn't it obvious to Finn?" Was the character who actually had a knowledge-base of such things wrong or are you wrong? He did that because he was trying to be heroic, not because he had some knowledge. He was a janitor. I don't know how they do things in the First Order but janitors generally don't know how to blow up big ass cannons.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2018 17:36:08 GMT
I think the better question is: "Why wasn't it obvious to Finn?" Was the character who actually had a knowledge-base of such things wrong or are you wrong? He did that because he was trying to be heroic, not because he had some knowledge. He was a janitor. I don't know how they do things in the First Order but janitors generally don't know how to blow up big ass cannons.
You mean the janitor who knew how to blow up Starkiller Base?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 12, 2018 17:36:35 GMT
A) Finns death would have been meaningless as he would have died and they still would have gotten through. His little aircraft was not going to destroy that big ass cannon. Its was like a drop in the ocean. His craft was already falling apart.
2) Luke was ALWAYS going to show up to help the resistance. Rose saving Finn did NOT precipitate that. Its in the very drama of the story that Luke was always going to show up.
3) Poe found a way out of the base through good old deduction. He noticed it got quiet and that the crystal creatures weren't around anymore. Nothing to do with Rose/Finn or Luke.
You guys are just adding 2+2 to equal 6 to try to support your dislike for a character that isn't responsible for those actions.
A) There was no indication that it wasn't going to work. Finn was about a second away from crashing into the canon and he wasn't getting torn apart yet. And Finn being the most familiar with the weapons would know better if it would work or not. He was going to slam his pod into the mouth of a canon, probably causing the pod to explode inside the canon. Something outputting that much energy won't take much to destabilize. It's not impossible, we've seen more ridiculous things happen in the SW universe. B) Rose had no way of knowing that Luke would be coming to help the resistance. Meaning her actions to save Finn was both selfish and meaningless. She stopped his meaningful self sacrifice for no reason other than she didn't want him to die... which doesn't make sense because they would be killed pretty soon anyway. Luke's arrival had nothing to do with Rose's decision because she didn't know he was coming. C) Same as B, Rose had no way of knowing that Poe found a way out of the base. So the moment she made the decision, she had no proper reason to base it on. The problem here is, we're giving you valid reason why we don't like Rose... and you're simply disregarding them. So why bother asking for our reasons if you're not willing to listen? I'm not disregarding. We're debating. Enjoy!
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 12, 2018 20:12:02 GMT
A) There was no indication that it wasn't going to work. Finn was about a second away from crashing into the canon and he wasn't getting torn apart yet. And Finn being the most familiar with the weapons would know better if it would work or not. He was going to slam his pod into the mouth of a canon, probably causing the pod to explode inside the canon. Something outputting that much energy won't take much to destabilize. It's not impossible, we've seen more ridiculous things happen in the SW universe. B) Rose had no way of knowing that Luke would be coming to help the resistance. Meaning her actions to save Finn was both selfish and meaningless. She stopped his meaningful self sacrifice for no reason other than she didn't want him to die... which doesn't make sense because they would be killed pretty soon anyway. Luke's arrival had nothing to do with Rose's decision because she didn't know he was coming. C) Same as B, Rose had no way of knowing that Poe found a way out of the base. So the moment she made the decision, she had no proper reason to base it on. The problem here is, we're giving you valid reason why we don't like Rose... and you're simply disregarding them. So why bother asking for our reasons if you're not willing to listen? I'm not disregarding. We're debating. Enjoy! Well then like we said, Rose had no good reason for interrupting Finn's suicide run.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 12, 2018 20:53:08 GMT
I'm not disregarding. We're debating. Enjoy! Well then like we said, Rose had no good reason for interrupting Finn's suicide run. And I disagree. I think she had the greatest reason of all. She wanted to save her man. As unrealistic as it may seem to you, she fell in love with her brave chocolate.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 12, 2018 21:11:44 GMT
Well then like we said, Rose had no good reason for interrupting Finn's suicide run. And I disagree. I think she had the greatest reason of all. She wanted to save her man. As unrealistic as it may seem to you, she fell in love with her brave chocolate. Love is fine and all but they were all about to die anyway. So basically what she did was save Finn from sacrificing himself just so that he can be killed by the First Order. And by doing that, Rose doomed everyone else to get killed by the first order. Like I said, unreasonable.
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Post by ryboto on Jan 12, 2018 21:27:08 GMT
Well then like we said, Rose had no good reason for interrupting Finn's suicide run. And I disagree. I think she had the greatest reason of all. She wanted to save her man. As unrealistic as it may seem to you, she fell in love with her brave chocolate. And thus she doomed them to death by upgraded AT-AT blaster fire.. wait, you say they survived!? Whole movie is ridiculous. Why didn't they just use the flagship resistance vessel to kamikaze from the start? Why couldn't a droid pilot it? Why didn't the FO just hyperspace ahead of them to wipe them out? It's all utter crap, so why argue about this triviality?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2018 22:31:44 GMT
And I disagree. I think she had the greatest reason of all. She wanted to save her man. As unrealistic as it may seem to you, she fell in love with her brave chocolate. And thus she doomed them to death by upgraded AT-AT blaster fire.. wait, you say they survived!? Whole movie is ridiculous. Why didn't they just use the flagship resistance vessel to kamikaze from the start? Why couldn't a droid pilot it? Why didn't the FO just hyperspace ahead of them to wipe them out? It's all utter crap, so why argue about this triviality? Why not just turbo-laser the entire base? Woudn't even have the need for a surface attack. ISDs did this all the time. It's one of the big, strategic advantages the Empire has over the Rebellion after the events of the PT. Why not? Because the base on Hoth was not turbo-lasered in TESB.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 15, 2018 15:28:19 GMT
And I disagree. I think she had the greatest reason of all. She wanted to save her man. As unrealistic as it may seem to you, she fell in love with her brave chocolate. And thus she doomed them to death by upgraded AT-AT blaster fire.. wait, you say they survived!? Whole movie is ridiculous. Why didn't they just use the flagship resistance vessel to kamikaze from the start? Why couldn't a droid pilot it? Why didn't the FO just hyperspace ahead of them to wipe them out? It's all utter crap, so why argue about this triviality? ummm... because those would be less dramatic? I know its a flimsy answer, but its true. In any case, we can all agree, that movie has its flaws.
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