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Post by PreachCaleb on Jan 17, 2018 17:28:25 GMT
"She's a god."
I don't think any single line up until that point on the show had ever chilled me as much as Quentin Travers laying it out for Buffy just exactly what she was up against.
Demons, vampires, monsters, robots, it didn't matter. Buffy had faced them all and won. But it was at this moment when I realized not everyone was going to survive this season. There would be casualties.
I just honestly never expected it to be Buffy herself, in one of the show's most beautiful moments, and even Joyce in a completely unrelated incident. In just a few episodes, we lost 2/3's of the Summers women.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Apr 11, 2018 23:30:24 GMT
"She's a god." I don't think any single line up until that point on the show had ever chilled me as much as Quentin Travers laying it out for Buffy just exactly what she was up against. Demons, vampires, monsters, robots, it didn't matter. Buffy had faced them all and won. But it was at this moment when I realized not everyone was going to survive this season. There would be casualties. I just honestly never expected it to be Buffy herself, in one of the show's most beautiful moments, and even Joyce in a completely unrelated incident. In just a few episodes, we lost 2/3's of the Summers women.
I don't think the line was as impactful for me as it was for you, Caleb (not that it wasn't impactful, it was and such a great moment), but I do agree with you for the most part.
None of them had ever been up against a god before, and it was so great to see how they would go up against and defeat something that was almost unbeatable/invincible. I liked that Buffy and the gang would, later on, actually run away from Glory. It was different, raised the stakes, and, as you mentioned, also indicated that there would be casualties.
Yeah, it was sad that we lost 2/3 of the Summers women in the span of a few episodes.
Even though I disagree about the casualties, (Joyce was an unrelated death, and while Buffy does die, she comes back next season) it still was very emotional and made an impact. Despite Buffy being brought back right at the beginning of season 6, she was very much changed by her death/experience, so I loved exploring that.
Checkpoint is one of my favorite episodes of season 5! It is a great mixture of drama and comedy, we finally get answers about Glory, I love seeing Quentin again and the Watcher's Council, we get a little more Slayer lore, a wonderful scene between Buffy and Glory, and Buffy being the badass we all know she is. Also, she includes everyone of the gang in her speech about how helpful they are and are an important part of her cause/job. Great episode!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 13, 2018 13:30:40 GMT
I've really gained a newfound respect for season 6--especially its early episodes--for that very reason. Few shows would take their character through a season-long depression (Sailor Moon was actually one that did it before Buffy), and it really makes the ending Grave that much more poignant.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Apr 18, 2018 22:53:37 GMT
I've really gained a newfound respect for season 6--especially its early episodes--for that very reason. Few shows would take their character through a season-long depression (Sailor Moon was actually one that did it before Buffy), and it really makes the ending Grave that much more poignant. Exactly! That is why I enjoy season 6 more than most people, I think. Season 6 was very different than earlier seasons. I love the idea that life is the big bad. Evil Willow was great and was a nice pay off for Willow's over use/over reliance of magic since season 4; maybe even season 3. I even liked Jonathan, Warren, and Andrew. I don't think they, especially Warren, are given enough credit for how "villainous" they actually were. Dead Things is a great example of how bad Warren really was (other than Villains). Grave is one of my favorite season 6 episodes.
I didn't know that about Sailor Moon. I am a fan, but I didn't watch it religiously...now you got me thinking of the theme song, and it's stuck in my head, lol!
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Post by mmexis on Apr 19, 2018 7:31:13 GMT
I like season 6 very much too. I think most people don't like it because it's very mature and deals with such mature themes. Poor Buffy is brought back and made to grow up immediately: finances, work, school, depression, a dependent. And no other adult to guide her as her friends are all focussed on their own problems. The only adult she really has is Spike, who also understands what it's like to be dead. I could live without the trio, but agree that Dead Things is phenomenal.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 19, 2018 14:00:35 GMT
I find Warren to be the series' most underrated villain. When discussing the great villains of Buffy the usual names are always mentioned: Angel, Spike, The Mayor, Faith, even Glory and Caleb will get an occasional mention.
But Warren is often neglected, and I think it's because he is probably the most true heel (wrestling term) of Buffy. There is nothing to like about him. Angel and Spike were monsterous but cool and funny. The Mayor had that father/daughter relationship with Faith and was fairly charming. Glory was an all powerful god. Caleb was played by Nathan Fillion. And even Adam had a cool design makeup wise.
Warren was just a sleazy nerd who'd bitten off more than he could chew when challenging the slayer. However, I'd argue that's what made him a good antagonist for Buffy. Fans wanted to see her kick the crap out of him. They wanted her to shut him up. "Good night, bitch," is one of Buffy's most satisfying lines.
And then, Warren did what no other villain since Angel had been able to do: he killed a member of the scooby gang. I'd also argue his hit was even bigger than Angel's. Tara had been on the show for a good two and a half years. We'd watch her grow from a meek, stuttering girl and become a strong, confident woman. And just as she was at her most happy with Willow, Warren took all that away. Willow may have ended up as the big bad at the end of the season, but it was Warren's actions that set everything in motion.
The mark of a great villain is making us want to see the hero take them down. Warren accomplished that like no one else.
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Post by mmexis on Apr 19, 2018 23:15:09 GMT
While I dislike Warren, I do agree that he was "monstrous" in the sense that he was a regular human being. And how many did he murder? He was the evil that walks among us as opposed to the metaphor/allegorical evil. Indeed, all of 6 was evil of the regular kind (with the exception of Willow). It can even be argued that the true villain of season 6 was life itself. It wore them all down and they all vented their frustrations in different ways. The gang thought that bringing Buffy back would be like getting a redo, but you can never redo; it's always different. I know we're talking checkpoint, but to me the worst part of season 6 is when Buffy beats the crap out of Spike. I remember being aghast at the sheer violence the first time I saw it. While Spike's attempted rape is reprehensible, it is understandable and something a lot of women face every day (also another desire to go back to what was).
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Post by obnoxiouslyadorable on Apr 24, 2018 16:27:24 GMT
I have always Ben a fan of S6, even during the IMDb days when it seemed like everyone was so down on it. S7 wasn't as good IMO, but I still enjoyed it. I loved the dark life sucks theme of S6. I thought it was an exceptional way to bring her back after her glorious death in S5 finale. Sure, BuffyBot was silly, but she served her place well in spite of it. Most of this series was allegory and it was done so well.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Jun 21, 2018 23:30:00 GMT
I like season 6 very much too. I think most people don't like it because it's very mature and deals with such mature themes. Poor Buffy is brought back and made to grow up immediately: finances, work, school, depression, a dependent. And no other adult to guide her as her friends are all focussed on their own problems. The only adult she really has is Spike, who also understands what it's like to be dead. I could live without the trio, but agree that Dead Things is phenomenal. I agree! Having your main character who is basically a superhero deal with the real world and its problems was a fantastic idea. I also like that Buffy got to connect with Spike in a completely different way. They actually had/found common ground, and, ironically, the guy who used to be her enemy is now the only person who she can really talk to. It was so weird and unexpected but I thought it worked really well, and it did tie in well with Spike's feelings/romantic interest in her.
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Post by ag25 on Jun 21, 2018 23:38:59 GMT
I find Warren to be the series' most underrated villain. When discussing the great villains of Buffy the usual names are always mentioned: Angel, Spike, The Mayor, Faith, even Glory and Caleb will get an occasional mention. But Warren is often neglected, and I think it's because he is probably the most true heel (wrestling term) of Buffy. There is nothing to like about him. Angel and Spike were monsterous but cool and funny. The Mayor had that father/daughter relationship with Faith and was fairly charming. Glory was an all powerful god. Caleb was played by Nathan Fillion. And even Adam had a cool design makeup wise. Warren was just a sleazy nerd who'd bitten off more than he could chew when challenging the slayer. However, I'd argue that's what made him a good antagonist for Buffy. Fans wanted to see her kick the crap out of him. They wanted her to shut him up. "Good night, bitch," is one of Buffy's most satisfying lines. And then, Warren did what no other villain since Angel had been able to do: he killed a member of the scooby gang. I'd also argue his hit was even bigger than Angel's. Tara had been on the show for a good two and a half years. We'd watch her grow from a meek, stuttering girl and become a strong, confident woman. And just as she was at her most happy with Willow, Warren took all that away. Willow may have ended up as the big bad at the end of the season, but it was Warren's actions that set everything in motion. The mark of a great villain is making us want to see the hero take them down. Warren accomplished that like no one else. I agree with everything you said.
Warren is neglected, and, elaborating on what you said, Caleb, Warren not only managed to kill a Scooby, but almost succeeded in actually killing Buffy. She would have died for sure if Willow hadn't magically pulled the bullet out of her (using dark magic?). If Tara hadn't died and Willow gone dark, would Buffy have been saved? By Willow (putting aside the fact that she is the main character of the show and Buffy was already brought back to life twice)? I don't count Glory, because she did not defeat Buffy or kill her. Buffy made the choice to sacrifice herself.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 25, 2018 18:42:18 GMT
Agreed. For all intents and purposes, Buffy had won. She bested Glory and practically forced her to retreat into Ben.
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Post by mmexis on Jun 27, 2018 2:09:20 GMT
I sometimes think that Giles' killing of Ben is the most cold-blooded murder on the show.
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Post by obnoxiouslyadorable on Jun 27, 2018 2:11:37 GMT
I sometimes think that Giles' killing of Ben is the most cold-blooded murder on the show. He really had to make a hard decision with that...weighing the good with the bad, the killing of a vengeful and hateful god who'd already tried to kill them all multiple times against an innocent human. He probably had to see them as two sides of the same coin in order to not go crazy. Ben couldn't keep Glory down, so he had to go with her. It was sad.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 27, 2018 16:48:43 GMT
I sometimes think that Giles' killing of Ben is the most cold-blooded murder on the show. There's no other way it could've happened. It had to be cold-blooded. Giles had to kill someone whose biggest crime was wanting to live and having to house a hell god.
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Post by mmexis on Jun 28, 2018 0:52:25 GMT
obnoxiouslyadorable, PreachCaleb: I know it needed to happen, but I just find that in all the discussions of various deaths, this one is often overlooked. Buffy couldn't do it because she can't kill humans, Spike was incapacitated, the rest of the Scoobies were fighting their own fights - that only left Giles. And he also probably did it as he was the only adult. Also, IMHO, I think that Ben was beginning to "turn".
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