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Post by mcufan on Jan 17, 2018 21:08:29 GMT
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jan 17, 2018 21:54:21 GMT
That's fair. Good argument. But I STILL think they could've thrown us fans a few more bones AND given us the "artistic integrity" They're not exclusive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 22:02:08 GMT
I disagree. It wasn't a bold move made in the spirit of art or story telling. It was a deliberate attempt to discard the old hero so that Rey could basically take the reigns and accomplish what we assumed Luke would have accomplished in the last 30 years. It was character assassination for the sake of blatant rehashing. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 17, 2018 22:05:38 GMT
I disagree. It wasn't a bold move made in the spirit of art or story telling. It was a deliberate attempt to discard the old hero so that Rey could basically take the reigns and accomplish what we assumed Luke would have accomplished in the last 30 years. It was character assassination for the sake of blatant rehashing. Nothing more. Nothing less. I disagree. I think he's right on the nose.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 17, 2018 22:06:49 GMT
That's fair. Good argument. But I STILL think they could've thrown us fans a few more bones AND given us the "artistic integrity" They're not exclusive. Fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 22:09:34 GMT
I disagree. It wasn't a bold move made in the spirit of art or story telling. It was a deliberate attempt to discard the old hero so that Rey could basically take the reigns and accomplish what we assumed Luke would have accomplished in the last 30 years. It was character assassination for the sake of blatant rehashing. Nothing more. Nothing less. I disagree. I think he's right on the nose. What about the senseless destruction of the New Republic and the Ressitance being reverted to the old Rebelion, only now smaller and more hopeless? It's the same technique. Just regress everything back to the original story. What's at stake now? The same things as the OT. Rey must become the sole Jedi and train a new order, just like Luke in RotJ. The Rebels must once again defeat the Empire. Its all lazy. There's no inventiveness or boldness in this trilogy.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 17, 2018 22:17:25 GMT
I disagree. I think he's right on the nose. What about the senseless destruction of the New Republic and the Ressitance being reverted to the old Rebelion, only now smaller and more hopeless? It's the same technique. Just regress everything back to the original story. What's at stake now? The same things as the OT. Rey must become the sole Jedi and train a new order, just like Luke in RotJ. The Rebels must once again defeat the Empire. Its all lazy. There's no inventiveness or boldness in this trilogy. that's why I want to see Rey already teaching and the focus be on the force users not the destruction of the new order but an evolution that nobody is expecting. The focus should be the younglings and their fate. Not the conflict. In my point of view of course. You will have your own opinion of course. It's all conjecture at this point.
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Post by audiosane on Jan 17, 2018 23:16:23 GMT
I disagree. It wasn't a bold move made in the spirit of art or story telling. It was a deliberate attempt to discard the old hero so that Rey could basically take the reigns and accomplish what we assumed Luke would have accomplished in the last 30 years. It was character assassination for the sake of blatant rehashing. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't care to see our once beloved hero transformed into a broken man who failed to fulfill his destiny post-ROTJ because it's inconsistent with OT Luke, who had his faults but was ever hopeful to see the good in those he cared about. Leia sent Ben to Luke because he was already troubled, so that shouldn't have been a big surprise. Still don't like how they didn't explain how Snoke met kid Ben. This whole thing feels forced in order to create drama and pave the way for Rey to steal Luke's shine. Killing off Luke and the other apprentices means that Rey won't have to submit to their authority. What we should've gotten was Luke successfully starting the Jedi Order pre-TFA, Rey taking her lumps while she gradually proves herself, and she ends the trilogy by taking a lower rung leadership position. She can become the main leader somewhere in X-XII.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 17, 2018 23:47:19 GMT
There was no artistic substance in the decision to characterize Luke Skywalker the way he was characterized in TLJ. It was the culmination of uprooting Luke as a heroic icon. It was getting him out of Rey's way so she wouldn't have to share it with Luke. This has been intentionally calculated over the last 2 films. JJ Abrams rewrote the script for TFA numerous times. Each time he scaled back Luke's role until he was reduced to a cameo. Abrams avoided Luke being a hero of the first film. Rian Johnson wrote Luke as a transformed failure, quitter, and isolationist. It's worthy to note that the original writer of episode IX (Colin Trevorrow) had a more positive vision of Luke. He would've never written this ilk only designed to make all of the male Jedi heroes look incompetent and unnecessary. And to bolster the spotlight on Rey and Leia. This was calculated writing of characters to accomplish agendas with them. Save the ending with Luke there was nothing artistic about it. How they portrayed Luke - I've seen that rehashed characterization of the old male has-been failure a hundred times before from Disney.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 17, 2018 23:55:41 GMT
There was no artistic substance in the decision to characterize Luke Skywalker the way he was characterized in TLJ. It was the culmination of uprooting Luke as a heroic icon. It was getting him out of Rey's way so she wouldn't have to share it with Luke. This has been intentionally calculated over the last 2 films. JJ Abrams rewrote the script for TFA numerous times. Each time he scaled back Luke's role until he was reduced to a cameo. Abrams avoided Luke being a hero of the first film. Rian Johnson wrote Luke as a transformer failure, quitter, and isolationist. It's worthy to note that the original writer of episode IX (Colin Trevorrow) had a more positive vision of Luke. He would've never written this ilk only designed to make all of the male Jedi heroes look incompetent and unnecessary. And to bolster the spotlight on Rey and Leia. This was calculated writing of characters to accomplish agendas with them. Save the ending with Luke there was nothing artistic about it. How they portrayed Luke - I've seen that rehashed characterization of the old male has-been failure a hundred times before from Disney. are you the guy that edited the girls from tlj?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 17, 2018 23:56:09 GMT
I disagree. It wasn't a bold move made in the spirit of art or story telling. It was a deliberate attempt to discard the old hero so that Rey could basically take the reigns and accomplish what we assumed Luke would have accomplished in the last 30 years. It was character assassination for the sake of blatant rehashing. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't care to see our once beloved hero transformed into a broken man who failed to fulfill his destiny post-ROTJ because it's inconsistent with OT Luke, who had his faults but was ever hopeful to see the good in those he cared about. Leia sent Ben to Luke because he was already troubled, so that shouldn't have been a big surprise. Still don't like how they didn't explain how Snoke met kid Ben. This whole thing feels forced in order to create drama and pave the way for Rey to steal Luke's shine. Killing off Luke and the other apprentices means that Rey won't have to submit to their authority. What we should've gotten was Luke successfully starting the Jedi Order pre-TFA, Rey taking her lumps while she gradually proves herself, and she ends the trilogy by taking a lower rung leadership position. She can become the main leader somewhere in X-XII. Of course it was forced, no pun intended. The write up posted by the OP sounds like someone who really got some nice perks from Disney. LOL I don't see what's so risky about changing a character into a broken down has-been when it clearly distinguishes a character that takes up the characterization he used to have. And let's not get into the contrivances and poor exposition behind Luke becoming a completely negative hermit.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 17, 2018 23:58:32 GMT
The usual suspects disagree. What a surprise!
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Post by mcufan on Jan 18, 2018 0:01:31 GMT
I don't care to see our once beloved hero transformed into a broken man who failed to fulfill his destiny post-ROTJ because it's inconsistent with OT Luke, who had his faults but was ever hopeful to see the good in those he cared about. Leia sent Ben to Luke because he was already troubled, so that shouldn't have been a big surprise. Still don't like how they didn't explain how Snoke met kid Ben. This whole thing feels forced in order to create drama and pave the way for Rey to steal Luke's shine. Killing off Luke and the other apprentices means that Rey won't have to submit to their authority. What we should've gotten was Luke successfully starting the Jedi Order pre-TFA, Rey taking her lumps while she gradually proves herself, and she ends the trilogy by taking a lower rung leadership position. She can become the main leader somewhere in X-XII. Of course it was forced, no pun intended. The write up posted by the OP sounds like someone who really got some nice perks from Disney. LOL I don't see what's so risky about changing a character into a broken down has-been when it clearly distinguishes a character that takes up the characterization he used to have. And let's not get into the contrivances and poor exposition behind Luke becoming a completely negative hermit. we would be having a discussion about Luke not having evolved from rotj if he was the same wouldn't we? I'm sure we would.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 18, 2018 0:15:22 GMT
There was no artistic substance in the decision to characterize Luke Skywalker the way he was characterized in TLJ. It was the culmination of uprooting Luke as a heroic icon. It was getting him out of Rey's way so she wouldn't have to share it with Luke. This has been intentionally calculated over the last 2 films. JJ Abrams rewrote the script for TFA numerous times. Each time he scaled back Luke's role until he was reduced to a cameo. Abrams avoided Luke being a hero of the first film. Rian Johnson wrote Luke as a transformer failure, quitter, and isolationist. It's worthy to note that the original writer of episode IX (Colin Trevorrow) had a more positive vision of Luke. He would've never written this ilk only designed to make all of the male Jedi heroes look incompetent and unnecessary. And to bolster the spotlight on Rey and Leia. This was calculated writing of characters to accomplish agendas with them. Save the ending with Luke there was nothing artistic about it. How they portrayed Luke - I've seen that rehashed characterization of the old male has-been failure a hundred times before from Disney. are you the guy that edited the girls from tlj? LOL! That's funny! (Just in case you're being serious, no I am not that person). For the record I have no problem with strong female characters. But you don't have to transform the bulk of male characters into totally incompetent McGuffins to move the storyline forward; or to make your heroines appear that much more dynamic and absolutely competent. It's lazy writing that screams an agenda. If you look at the heroes and heroines of the other trilogies, most of them were a mixture of competence and incompetence. But this trilogy: Hux, Luke, Finn (except at the end of each movie), Ackbar, even C3PO came off as incompetent. They were either useless or buffoons. A truly strong female character doesn't need her male counterparts transformed into totally inept people in order to shine. They can still shine and grab the spotlight while being surrounded by competent male characters.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Jan 18, 2018 0:28:33 GMT
Of course it was forced, no pun intended. The write up posted by the OP sounds like someone who really got some nice perks from Disney. LOL I don't see what's so risky about changing a character into a broken down has-been when it clearly distinguishes a character that takes up the characterization he used to have. And let's not get into the contrivances and poor exposition behind Luke becoming a completely negative hermit. we would be having a discussion about Luke not having evolved from rotj if he was the same wouldn't we? I'm sure we would. A character can show change and development, and even be somewhat different - but still be competent. Here's some examples: Han Solo showed some growth from the beginning of ANH to who he was by the end of ROTJ. Luke Skywalker showed even more growth over the same time period. Anakin underwent a powerful transformation to Darth Vader. But along the way he always showed a mixture of competency and incompetence. Leia went from being a diplomat at the beginning of ANH to being a diplomat/general by ROTJ. And now a mother and "tough as nails" general in this trilogy. Luke's characterization totally erased any trace of who he was in the OT. (Even Mark Hamill found that to be so). It was a contrived characterization to accomplish certain agendas within the trilogy and the messages behind it.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 18, 2018 0:31:20 GMT
are you the guy that edited the girls from tlj? LOL! That's funny! (Just in case you're being serious, no am not that person). For the record I have no problem with strong female characters. But you don't have to transform the bulk of male characters into totally incompetent McGuffins to move the storyline forward; or to make your heroines appear that much more dynamic and absolutely competent. It's lazy writing that screams an agenda. If you look at the heroes and heroines of the other trilogies, most of them were a mixture of competence and incompetence. But this trilogy: Hux, Luke, Finn (except at the end of each movie), Ackbar, even C3PO came off as incompetent. They were either useless or buffoons. A truly strong female character doesn't need her male counterparts transformed into totally inept people in order to shine. They can still shine and grab the spotlight while being surrounded by competent male characters. They didn't give him one goddamn line!
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Post by mcufan on Jan 18, 2018 0:34:13 GMT
are you the guy that edited the girls from tlj? LOL! That's funny! (Just in case you're being serious, no am not that person). For the record I have no problem with strong female characters. But you don't have to transform the bulk of male characters into totally incompetent McGuffins to move the storyline forward; or to make your heroines appear that much more dynamic and absolutely competent. It's lazy writing that screams an agenda. If you look at the heroes and heroines of the other trilogies, most of them were a mixture of competence and incompetence. But this trilogy: Hux, Luke, Finn (except at the end of each movie), Ackbar, even C3PO came off as incompetent. They were either useless or buffoons. A truly strong female character doesn't need her male counterparts transformed into totally inept people in order to shine. They can still shine and grab the spotlight while being surrounded by competent male characters. I don't look at it as male vs female. If you think they are incompetent fine. They are incompetent people. The fact that they are male or female should be irrelevant. Apparently it is not. Rose is just as incompetent as Finn for instance ( in the sense that the plan fails). And Poe and Luke redeem themselves. Phasma is defeated, again, buy a guy. Heck the resistance is now led by a guy. Does chewie count? Lol By the end of the movie all the males dominate the movie. Your view is askew.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 18, 2018 0:35:13 GMT
LOL! That's funny! (Just in case you're being serious, no am not that person). For the record I have no problem with strong female characters. But you don't have to transform the bulk of male characters into totally incompetent McGuffins to move the storyline forward; or to make your heroines appear that much more dynamic and absolutely competent. It's lazy writing that screams an agenda. If you look at the heroes and heroines of the other trilogies, most of them were a mixture of competence and incompetence. But this trilogy: Hux, Luke, Finn (except at the end of each movie), Ackbar, even C3PO came off as incompetent. They were either useless or buffoons. A truly strong female character doesn't need her male counterparts transformed into totally inept people in order to shine. They can still shine and grab the spotlight while being surrounded by competent male characters. They didn't give him one goddamn line! yes they did, several in fact.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 18, 2018 0:39:32 GMT
we would be having a discussion about Luke not having evolved from rotj if he was the same wouldn't we? I'm sure we would. A character can show change and development, and even be somewhat different - but still be competent. Here's some examples: Han Solo showed some growth from the beginning of ANH to who he was by the end of ROTJ. Luke Skywalker showed even more growth over the same time period. Anakin underwent a powerful transformation to Darth Vader. But along the way he always showed a mixture of competency and incompetence. Leia went from being a diplomat at the beginning of ANH to being a diplomat/general by ROTJ. And now a mother and "tough as nails" general in this trilogy. Luke's characterization totally erased any trace of who he was in the OT. (Even Mark Hamill found that to be so). It was a contrived characterization to accomplish certain agendas within the trilogy and the messages behind it. See my next post.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 18, 2018 0:51:45 GMT
LOL! That's funny! (Just in case you're being serious, no am not that person). For the record I have no problem with strong female characters. But you don't have to transform the bulk of male characters into totally incompetent McGuffins to move the storyline forward; or to make your heroines appear that much more dynamic and absolutely competent. It's lazy writing that screams an agenda. If you look at the heroes and heroines of the other trilogies, most of them were a mixture of competence and incompetence. But this trilogy: Hux, Luke, Finn (except at the end of each movie), Ackbar, even C3PO came off as incompetent. They were either useless or buffoons. A truly strong female character doesn't need her male counterparts transformed into totally inept people in order to shine. They can still shine and grab the spotlight while being surrounded by competent male characters. I don't look at it as male vs female. If you think they are incompetent fine. They are incompetent people. The fact that they are male or female should be irrelevant. Apparently it is not. Rose is just as incompetent as Finn for instance ( in the sense that the plan fails). And Poe and Luke redeem themselves. Phasma is defeated, again, buy a guy. Heck the resistance is now led by a guy. Does chewie count? Lol By the end of the movie all the males dominate the movie. Your view is askew. Poe was the leader of a mutiny. He should be in a detention block for his involvement. He's a terrible, treasonous soldier. Luke did not redeem himself. He gave the Leia/the Resistance a map of his location, which went onto to get a lot of people killed including a whole village and one of his best friends, Han Solo. Why did Luke do this? We're unsure. Especially given the knowledge that he wants the Jedi to end and personally feels responsible for all the bad that has happened since Return of the Jedi. Even despite this, he feels compelled to leave a map. Then when someone finds him using that map, he then spends most of the movie treating that person like crap...then he dies using too much of the Force, completely forgetting the use of holograms... The whole movie was stupid. The more I think about it, the more apparent it becomes that these cats in charge of the Star Wars franchise, don't know what they're doing. Nor did they have a plan.
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