Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jan 28, 2018 4:59:41 GMT
One of the sleazier aspects to a number of the recent high-profile sexual misconduct allegation is that the men are alleged to have exposed their private parts to the victims, who weren't interested in seeing them do that. (For a few examples, take Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Louis CK, Jeremy Piven, and journalists Charlie Rose and Matt Lauer.)
(Let's set aside any situations in which the relationship was entirely based on work and involved a power differential in the workplace (eg, a male studio executive or producer with a female actor seeking to be cast in a production, or with a female screenwriter/director seeking to have her proposed film greenlighted for production; or a male network anchor with a female assistant on his staff).
Let's also set aside any situations that involve any kind of physical force--such as pinning somebody down, or grabbing them so tightly that it hurts them, or grabbing them and not letting them go when they try to pull away, for a few examples.
We'll stipulate that in all of the above situations, it would be definitely sexual misconduct.)
Do you think it is always wrong for someone to expose their private parts to someone they only know casually?
Example scenarios:
- Two people meet while volunteering for some organization that they share a mutual interest in, and they start to chat and decide they would like to get to know each other better. One invites the other for lunch or dinner. The meal goes well, and the person who made the invitation then asks the invitee to go back home with him/her.
- Two people meet at a party at a mutual acquaintance's home. They exchange numbers. One of them calls/texts the other and invites him/her to come by his/her home.
- Two people meet at a singles bar. They decide to return to the home of one them.
- Two people meet through a dating website/app. They decide to get together for a meal, which goes well. One of them invites the other to accompany him/her home.
In each case, after they arrive at the home and chat for a little bit, the invitor excuses himself/herself to go to the bathroom. When he/she returns, he/she is wearing an open robe with nothing else on underneath.
Suppose that the invitee was not expecting that, and is completely shocked.
QUESTIONS: -Was the person's exposing of himself/herself absolutely wrong? -Would it be sexual misconduct in every case?
(And what about if the invitee was not expecting it, but liked what they saw?)
(And what about if instead of the exposure occurring in a home, it was in a car that they were riding in together?)
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Post by mslo79 on Jan 29, 2018 7:04:13 GMT
Well you can already tell that by the way society as a whole see's the situation that if the male exposes himself to the female it's going to be much more frowned upon than the same situation in reverse (i.e. female exposing herself to the male), even though technically it's the same.
but at the same time I can see why society frowns more upon the male exposing to a female than the reserve because of guys being physically stronger etc. so when it happens to the female it seems like it's much worse than if the reverse happens and being people just kind of assume guys will just about always like it if it happened to them kind of mentality, it tends to be far less serious. so it's sorta like things can get in hot water quickly with the male (male exposing himself to a female) where as the female (female exposing herself to a male) no one really seems to care all that much because you don't really think of females raping males but since the reserve tends to happen people are quick to flip out etc. I am sure you get the gist of it.
but to get back to the OP's described scenario's... given the way many in society think, it seems they just sort of assume if you go back to their house that 'sex' is likely going to happen, or a decent chance of it, which may not always be the case. so putting aside any power over the other person like the OP described and just two average people in those situations I can see how someone could consider it out of line but at the same time the one exposing themselves don't mind taking a risk on the chance they could have sex and I figure it's not the end of the world as long as it goes not get physical which by the OP's definition it does not get physical. so since it never reaches a physical point the one who see's the other person exposing themselves could basically just decline etc.
but come to think of that general situation with barely knowing the other person and then immediately goes back to their place for sex not long after meeting might be a bit of a red flag that unless both people don't care about a relationship and are in it for sex chances are they can't be trusted if they are that quick to jump into sex with whoever they meet.
so I guess the exposing thing is kinda of risky but at the same time it's not totally the end of the world either because if the one who exposes themselves keeps on pressuring one who clearly says they don't like it etc then I could easily see how your definitely starting to cross the line at that point and could get even worse depending on how things go. then you got those in a position of power which makes it look even worse like the case with Harvey Weinstein where he just goes on pressuring them again and again after they basically rejected him but where probably semi-afraid to firmly say no and and if he did not stop, they could leave etc, because potential damage to their career etc. so I could easily see how one would say he was leveraging his power over them for his own sexual satisfaction.
but ever since the Harvey Weinstein thing came out in the open you are seeing a lot of claims. but personally... while I assume some are legitimate, there has to be some that are mostly a non-issue and those sexual harassment claims will do more harm to the accused than the accuser experienced (especially those situations where it might have happened a couple of times or so with language and then gets burned for it. because if that still goes on and on and was told to stop and still continues I can see you got to draw the line at some point and make a claim). because it does not take much for someone to claim 'sexual harassment' and having that label put on you seems to be quite damaging even if it's a mild/petty thing. that's why I don't think people should be claiming this unless it's something clearly out of line or they have been warned multiple times to stop say someone was talking dirty to someone and they did not like it and were asked multiple times and still continue to do it. basically I am just saying that before filing a claim of sexual harassment I would give the person a reasonable chance to stop first before pressing things. but obviously if things start getting physical that can be potentially serious the first time depending on what happens etc.
also, looking up 'sexual misconduct' seems like a good term in reference to Harvey Weinstein as it says... "Sexual misconduct is misconduct of a sexual nature. The term may be used to condemn an act, but in some jurisdictions it has also a legal meaning. In legal sense, for a person in a position of authority it includes in particular any sexual activity between him or her and one of his or her subordinates."
so after reading that, without checking, I imagine there is different definitions for 'Sexual Harassment' and 'Sexual Misconduct' etc. my guess is the 'Harassment' is more language and 'Misconduct' might be when people expose themselves etc but is not rape level either.
with all of that said... I guess where one draws the line could vary a bit from person to person but just for me personally when it comes to language I would not be too concerned over this even though one can only go so far here before it needs to stop otherwise the one using the language has it coming. but I can see how some shady people out there will claim sexual harassment and the like over next to nothing just to screw with someone or try to extract some $$$ from people etc.
just some random thoughts.
p.s. for the record... people should not be having sex until they are legitimately married because it's a serious sin to do so according to the moral guide of the world (i.e. the Catholic church). but it seems most people don't adhere to these standards anymore (which are set in place by God basically). once someone goes out of this standard it's not surprising things tend to go bad for people.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jan 29, 2018 8:10:32 GMT
I used the term "sexual misconduct" in the thread title because you have to be as succinct as possible in titles. But what I was getting at is better described as asking whether it is wrong--a kind of sexual behavior (misbehavior) that no one should engage in.
I don't want to get caught up in the legal terminology and legal issues, especially since legal norms vary so widely across jurisdictions, from state to state and from country to country.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jan 29, 2018 8:16:28 GMT
p.s. for the record... people should not be having sex until they are legitimately married because it's a serious sin to do so according to the moral guide of the world (i.e. the Catholic church). but it seems most people don't adhere to these standards anymore (which are set in place by God basically). once someone goes out of this standard it's not surprising things tend to go bad for people. You put this as an afterthought, but I actually think that for many people it is at the heart of the matter. There are a great many people who think any kind of sexual interaction outside of marriage is absolutely wrong. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who are perfectly comfortable with mutually consensual sex in couples who have only recently met. So that's one of the points of this discussion. If someone feels exposing their private parts is wrong, is it just wrong because these people aren't married? Or is it wrong because they have only recently met? Or is it wrong because the invitee has not said outloud that he or she is interested in getting physical? Or is it wrong because no one should ever expose themselves? (There are some people who believe this.) Or is it ok?
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Post by mslo79 on Jan 29, 2018 9:23:58 GMT
Eλευθερί That is the heart of the matter. I am Catholic, so I have to abide by those standards (it's for our own sake even though it will seem like one is being penalized. but it's because we have a fallen nature after the fall of Adam/Eve and now don't see things clearly). I just briefly mentioned that part because around here people don't want to hear that truth so I mostly tried to look at it from other angles even though I mentioned that any sexual activity outside of legitimate marriage is a sin(i.e. wrong). but it is strictly correct in saying that any sex outside of marriage is absolutely wrong (at least based on Catholic church standards which is the true Church of God established by Jesus Christ). but many just don't care about this (not surprising since it's basically our most powerful urge so it's one of the easiest things to break and can seem mostly harmless outside of STD stuff etc) or think that's asking a lot and it is asking a lot because the sexual urge is quite powerful. Well if someone is legitimately married, then obviously if they expose themselves to their spouse then it won't matter at all there because they are married. If one is to go outside of the 'no sex until legitimate marriage' standards (which I would avoid)... one could look at that as a bad thing in the sense, unless both parties only want to have sex with no relationship and are clear about this, then it's a bit of a red flag. because if someone is that quick to have sex after just meeting they probably can't be trusted not to cheat etc as the relationship goes forward and are likely only in it for one thing. but sadly, I think there are plenty of people out there (especially guys) who basically just want sex from someone and probably know they won't get it without sweet talking them etc claiming they love them etc just to get in her pants and once they do they start to get out of there etc, which leaves her with hurt feelings etc. because if they made it clear they basically just want sex straight up, I can't see too many females going along with that and being many people are selfish they smooth talk etc just to work their way into their pants especially on younger females who tend to be a bit more naive and are more likely to fall for that stuff etc. just some thoughts. Well I guess it would be better if the invitee basically told the person they want to get physical or strongly hint at that etc then just having a causal conversation for a few minutes and then the person who invited that person just assumes they are going to have sex because they came back to their place and then does the whole robe scenario you describe and the like. Even in cases of people who are married? ; I can't see anyone saying that's wrong if it's done between married couples in the privacy of their own home. because while we do need decency standards etc... obviously one exposing themselves can't be wrong in every single situation because otherwise no one could reproduce and if we don't reproduce then humanity dies (common sense really). so knowing this much guarantee's if some people think 'sex is always bad' kind of mentality, are obviously wrong. so while I know that there are some people who pretty much have that 'sex is always bad' mentality they don't really count simply because if that were really true, humanity would go extinct if we stopped reproducing. basically those people took the no sex thing to a extreme. I doubt anyone with any decency would say it's just 'okay' (like no big deal) in general. because you can't just have people running down the street exposing themselves etc. so there has to be a line drawn on some level at the very least. but only way to play that stuff safe is not to expose oneself, like any private parts obviously visible is generally a bad idea. like one would have to be pretty confident it's okay to even attempt that level as even being in ones underwear in front of another person would be pushing it in front of someone your not pretty familiar with. so obviously being pretty much naked is crossing the line. but as far as legal trouble over that stuff... personally, I think it would have to get pretty serious (like more forced physical contact) in order for jail time to be involved.
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Post by Sandman on Jan 29, 2018 22:17:18 GMT
Wrong in all cases the OP described. The reason it is wrong in all the cases they hardly new each other.
That being said if a women invited me to her house and came out with a opened robe it would not disturb me one bit.
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Post by mslo79 on Jan 31, 2018 6:46:05 GMT
SandmanI would imagine this is the default mindset of many of us guys for obvious reasons ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Flynn on Feb 1, 2018 0:28:25 GMT
I feel sorry for Baby Boomers because they grew up in a time when it was more permissible to be sexually upfront. Anyone who's ever gone to a public gym has seen that one person walking around naked with no sense of modesty. Bet you money that 9/10 of those people were born prior to 1965. Boomers just have a different sense of sexual boundaries, and now their careers are being ruined because of a swift change in social perception.
Also, the first wave of feminism involved women taking control of their own sexuality. Women were finally able to publicly want sex, to enjoy sex. Women were shedding the "good girl" image and were exploring their sexual feelings. The '60s, after all, was an era known for "free love." I'm sure men got used to being able to be upfront about the idea of a sexual hook up, and now that behavior isn't acceptable.
I don't condone repeated unwanted advances, and I don't condone inappropriate touching in the workplace (inappropriate primarily being the grabbing of genitals), but on the other hand, you don't know if an advance is unwanted until you advance.
As for appearing naked in front of others, it all depends on context for me. What era? What led to it? What were the motivations? Was there a sense of invitation, even if implicit? In some cases, I can see it as inappropriate, and in others I can see it as rather innocent.
In some sense, I don't get what the issue is. It's just a naked body. If you don't want to see it, let them know it. If you aren't willing to do that, then keep it to yourself. Louis CK clearly has a problem. He's said so himself. I wish we were more concerned as a society in helping him than destroying his career.
I know it's a complex subject, but overall, I'd like to see more willingness to take context into account.
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Post by poelzig on Feb 1, 2018 2:07:25 GMT
Sandman I would imagine this is the default mindset of many of us guys for obvious reasons ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) It depends on the woman. Sadly there's a LOT more woman I would tell to cover up than I would encourage to disrobe completely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 2:17:42 GMT
Of course it is.
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Post by mslo79 on Feb 1, 2018 6:58:19 GMT
poelzigYeah, I got to agree with you here as when looking at ALL women out there, there is going to be plenty I would rather avoid in this regard. but then again there is still a decent percentage I would not complain about ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Feb 2, 2018 14:43:25 GMT
I guess I'm the only one here who's ever had this happen to them. One of the hottest dates I've ever had. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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