|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 10, 2017 1:17:21 GMT
So, this is relatively vague, and these movies probably don't count as "classics," but...
What does everyone here think of Deathtrap and The Last of Sheila, two excellent mystery films (the former leaning towards the twisty thriller side and the latter towards the whodunit side), both of which aired on TCM the other night?
|
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 10, 2017 3:07:59 GMT
Regret to say I haven't seen either, salzmank, though I'm sure others have. I was always particularly interested in The Last of Sheila, given that Anthony Perkins was the writer, along with Stephen Sondheim. If memory serves, it was Perkins' concept. is one of my favorite movies: the cluing and plotting are über-ingenious (there is one clue, the revelation of a pattern, that makes you slap your head in amazement at not having seen it from the very beginning), and the acting, from James Mason, James Coburn, and Joan Hackett in particular, is delightful. Perkins and Sondheim are excellent writers, both in plotting and in dialogue, which makes me all the more annoyed that their second and third scripts together, The Chorus Girl Murder Case and Crime and Variations, were never filmed! I don't know if it's available on TCM screening, but, if it is, I highly recommend it, especially if you like mysteries, Spiderwort. As for Deathtrap, I also greatly recommend it, but I have to say: watch out for spoilers! That applies for Sheila too, of course, but it's particularly easy with Deathtrap, because the central twist became relatively famous when the film came out. But it is a movie--based on Ira Levin's play, but well-adapted to film by Sidney Lumet--that needs to be gone into cold. |
|
|
|
Post by manfromplanetx on Mar 10, 2017 3:28:35 GMT
Regret to say I haven't seen either, salzmank, though I'm sure others have. I was always particularly interested in The Last of Sheila, given that Anthony Perkins was the writer, along with Stephen Sondheim. If memory serves, it was Perkins' concept. is one of my favorite movies: the cluing and plotting are über-ingenious (there is one clue, the revelation of a pattern, that makes you slap your head in amazement at not having seen it from the very beginning), and the acting, from James Mason, James Coburn, and Joan Hackett in particular, is delightful. Perkins and Sondheim are excellent writers, both in plotting and in dialogue, which makes me all the more annoyed that their second and third scripts together, The Chorus Girl Murder Case and Crime and Variations, were never filmed! I don't know if it's available on TCM screening, but, if it is, I highly recommend it, especially if you like mysteries, Spiderwort. As for Deathtrap, I also greatly recommend it, but I have to say: watch out for spoilers! That applies for Sheila too, of course, but it's particularly easy with Deathtrap, because the central twist became relatively famous when the film came out. But it is a movie--based on Ira Levin's play, but well-adapted to film by Sidney Lumet--that needs to be gone into cold. UPDATE: I just checked, both The Last of Sheila and Deathtrap are available on TCM streaming-- www.tcm.com/watchtcm/movies/?ecid=subnavmoviesondemand--until Mar. 13! Hi there You have sold me on The Last Of Shelia I had never heard of it before, thanks for the recommendation the DVD is available so I will add it to the collection... |
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 10, 2017 3:33:45 GMT
Sheila is one of my favorite movies: the cluing and plotting are über-ingenious (there is one clue, the revelation of a pattern, that makes you slap your head in amazement at not having seen it from the very beginning), and the acting, from James Mason, James Coburn, and Joan Hackett in particular, is delightful. Perkins and Sondheim are excellent writers, both in plotting and in dialogue, which makes me all the more annoyed that their second and third scripts together, The Chorus Girl Murder Case and Crime and Variations, were never filmed! I don't know if it's available on TCM screening, but, if it is, I highly recommend it, especially if you like mysteries, Spiderwort. As for Deathtrap, I also greatly recommend it, but I have to say: watch out for spoilers! That applies for Sheila too, of course, but it's particularly easy with Deathtrap, because the central twist became relatively famous when the film came out. But it is a movie--based on Ira Levin's play, but well-adapted to film by Sidney Lumet--that needs to be gone into cold. UPDATE: I just checked, both The Last of Sheila and Deathtrap are available on TCM streaming-- www.tcm.com/watchtcm/movies/?ecid=subnavmoviesondemand--until Mar. 13! Hi there You have sold me on The Last Of Shelia I had never heard of it before, thanks for the recommendation the DVD is available so I will add it to the collection... Yeah, it is unfortunately a difficult movie to find, isn't it...? My only advice is, watch out for spoilers on the Internet, and enjoy! |
|
|
|
Post by marshamae on Mar 10, 2017 3:34:22 GMT
Stephen Sondheim is very fond of games and it shows in Last of Sheila. It's the kind of cleverness that sometimes gets in the way of great art but is my cuppa tea . A story about Sondheim that I love is about a birthday gift he once made for Leonard Bernstein. It was a board game , the goal of which was to end up face to face with Bernstein at either his studio or his home. Bernstein was notoriously hard to pin down, always late and overbooked. He alSo had an irascible Secretary, Helen Coates , very possessive and jealous, who tended to prevent people from seeing him. The game consisted of paths made of squares leading to Bernstein , and cards with various barriers, ( Lenny has a dentist appointment, miss the next two turns. Or Lenny has taken up flamenco dancing . Go back 6 spaces in cha cha time.) in the center ,blocking all paths to Lenny was a spinning figure of Helen Coates which had to be passed . If it spun toward you you had to go back. It's funny , sharp, a little angry , but very clever. and then there's this youtu.be/zRB-HP9rPGQ |
|
|
|
Post by OldAussie on Mar 10, 2017 3:37:45 GMT
I haven't seen DEATHTRAP for many years but enjoyed it immensely.
LAST OF SHEILA is one of the movies I watch once a year at least. Love it.
If you can, listen to the commentary on the DVD by Dyan Cannon and Richard Benjamin. They have a lot of fun. It's like having them gossiping in your room.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 10, 2017 4:15:54 GMT
Stephen Sondheim is very fond of games and it shows in Last of Sheila. It's the kind of cleverness that sometimes gets in the way of great art but is my cuppa tea . As it is mine, for better or worse. The gift sounds exactly like Sondheim, from what I know of him. And the link--I'm probably looking too deeply into it, but, not only is it very delightful and clever, but it also shares aspects with the puzzle aspect that shows in The Last of Sheila: the focus on wordplay and meanings within meaning, clues that give greater significance to superficially simple works. It's a quality present in Sondheim's musicals too, of course, and it interests me as a writer: while I've never written a musical, I have written both poetry and detective fiction, and it seems to be the same part of the brain that inspires both! |
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 10, 2017 4:18:18 GMT
I haven't seen DEATHTRAP for many years but enjoyed it immensely. LAST OF SHEILA is one of the movies I watch once a year at least. Love it. If you can, listen to the commentary on the DVD by Dyan Cannon and Richard Benjamin. They have a lot of fun. It's like having them gossiping in your room. I love Sheila too. Several months ago, I showed Deathtrap to a friend, who enjoyed it so-so...until the twist, by which he was floored, and he kept up with the movie and could hardly take his eyes off the screen. It has that effect on people, which is why, while I too enjoy it immensely, I enjoy even more showing it to those who've never seen it before. I've not yet listened to Sheila's DVD commentary. I'm sure I will enjoy it. It seems, from the performances, that the actors had a lot of fun with it. |
|
|
|
Post by gunshotwound on Mar 13, 2017 4:29:48 GMT
I have seen both of them but it has been so long ago. I do remember that I liked them and I remember little bits and pieces of both but not enough of either to discuss them.
I started watching Deathwatch on TCM not too long ago but for some reason that I do not remember I changed the channel after about 20 minutes. I should have taped it to view later but I didn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doghouse6 on Mar 13, 2017 7:11:35 GMT
No one else has any thoughts on these?! Sure, I'll jump in. The Last Of Sheila I've found delicious from the very first of many viewings, and I never tire of it. It's one of those films that makes you wish you could step right onto the screen and join the glamorous fun. While a throwback, its updating of parlor room intrigue is very much of its time, yet doesn't date, feeling as stylistically fresh now as it did in '73. While I don't find Deathtrap as endlessly rewatchable, it's a nice companion piece for consideration not only alongside TLOS, but to Sleuth, to which it owes so much. Of the latter, I remember appreciating at the time a sort of old master vs up-and-comer vibe going on, between the actors as well as the characters. Although a well-established front-rank star by then, Caine's placement in this just-for-fun, one-on-one head-to-head with the still vital Sir Laurence packing many a trick up his sleeve brought out the best in both. It was therefore pleasing to see the dynamic reversed a decade later in Deathtrap with old pro Caine and up-and-comer Reeves. And as connective tissue with TLOS, we have Dyan Cannon, very much herself in both but going convincingly from hard-bitten, man-eating Hollywood cynic to high-strung, needy and frail victim. Together, the three would make a great triple feature for an elegant evening with some good wine, cheese and whatever other delicacies tickle your fancy. |
|
shield
Sophomore
Reading is to the mind what excercise is to the body
@shield
Posts: 776
Likes: 218
 
|
Post by shield on Mar 13, 2017 10:55:18 GMT
Haven't seen any of them but especially The Last of Sheila sounds very interesting and doghouse make a compelling argument for both Sleuth and Deathtrap. I'll keep a special eye out for them. Thx!
|
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 19:47:32 GMT
I've just finished watching James Whale's Remember Last Night? (1935), which I've been meaning to watch for some time (Whale's one of my favorite directors) but of which I could never find a copy. (Universal Vault has it for free right now on YouTube--I don't know how long it'll be there, so if you're interested, check it out soon!) From the reviews I've read of it, it seems like a love-it-or-hate-it kind of film. While I frequently reject this simplistic of a dichotomy about any movie, it does seem that one can understand both reactions, even from fans of Whale's work! As for me, however, I found it very strong, on my second, if not first, tier of favorite Whale pictures. In many ways, it's a wacky, funhouse version of The Thin Man, filtered through Whale's wild sensibilities: incredibly stylized and art deco, with Robert Young and Constance Cummings's Tony and Carlotta Milburn being mirror-universe counterparts of Nick and Nora Charles. The most widely repeated criticism is that the characters are unlikable, and that is true--in the beginning. While the Milburns never become as charming as the Charleses (who could?), they do become more likable as the film progresses, and the repartee becomes more witty and clever. With that said, it's notable and apt that Whale and his writers choose not to replicate the Charleses (as was done in The Ex-Mrs. Bradford and Star of Midnight, both with William Powell essentially replaying Nick, albeit with a different "Nora," under a different name) but rather to offer a creative variation on their characters. Whale, by the way, doesn't hold back in his criticisms of the rich, with the party scene that opens the film showing them as vapid, self-centered, and moronic. (As noted, the Milburns do become more likable by the end.) The mystery plot, just as in The Thin Man, isn't all that great, but it is somewhat clever, even if very far-fetched. In the end, it is not The Thin Man, which remains far superior, but it is a very enjoyable "anti- Thin Man." A few highlights to bear in mind: the hypnotism scene (recalling Whale's horror efforts) and Gustav von Seyffertitz's Mephistophelian performance in it, the wild, typically Whalesian direction, the direct take-offs of scenes from The Thin Man (i.e., Milburn's having the cop arrest his wife, cf. the business in which Nick sends Nora to Grant's Tomb in the first TM and locks her in a closet in the second, and Milburn's exploration of Bouclier's house, cf. Nick's exploration of Clyde Wynant's laboratory), and the hearty, hilarious performances from Edward Brophy and especially Arthur Treacher! |
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 20:02:21 GMT
And why did I put these thoughts in this thread, you ask (or maybe not)? Because I was wondering the whole time I was watching it if Perkins and Sondheim were inspired by Remember Last Night? for several details in The Last of Sheila. [BRIEF POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR SHEILA, though I'll try to be as circumspect as possible.] I've never exactly seen anyone bring this supposed connection up, ever, but there are just so many similarities: 1. generally unlikeable, wealthy characters, 2. a cynical tone, 3. similar plot points filmed similarly (that in which Sally Eilers attempts suicide done closely to how Joan Hackett supposedly commits suicide in Sheila--and, now that I think of it, Eilers and Hackett are both the most sympathetic characters in their respective movies!), 4. a horror sequence coming at the center of the movie (hypnotism in Remember, abandoned abbey in Sheila), 5. exactly three murders, 6. a major plot point being drinking (Hackett's in Sheila), 7. and even a similar puzzle plot! (To say much more about this last point, however, would really spoil both movies, but let me just note that what happens to Clinton's corpse in Sheila happens to Vic's corpse in Remember.) Yeah, yeah, but I was ready just to chock it all off to coincidence. Then I remembered reading that Sondheim and Perkins's original concept for Sheila, before the setting was changed to a yacht on the French Riviera, had it set on a large Long Island country estate. And where was Remember Last Night? set? You guessed it--a large Long Island country estate. |
|
shield
Sophomore
Reading is to the mind what excercise is to the body
@shield
Posts: 776
Likes: 218
|
Post by shield on Mar 24, 2017 20:05:43 GMT
Man, I watched The Last of Sheila a few days ago and a big thank you for bringing it up. Really loved it and I couldn't agree more about the brilliant script and great acting from all the actors. Lee Marvin was great. At first I couldn't place the actor that played Anthony although I very much recognized him. Then realized that it was a much younger Ian McShane whom I've watched in the excellent series Deadwood and the too shortlived Kings as well as some other roles. The most recent in John Wick.
About The Thin Man, I've seen the first film and wonder if the sequels are on par with the first film? If they are then I will place them in my watch-queue (which is getting longer by the minute....).
|
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 20:18:51 GMT
Man, I watched The Last of Sheila a few days ago and a big thank you for bringing it up. Really loved it and I couldn't agree more about the brilliant script and great acting from all the actors. Lee Marvin was great. At first I couldn't place the actor that played Anthony although I very much recognized him. Then realized that it was a much younger Ian McShane whom I've watched in the excellent series Deadwood and the too shortlived Kings as well as some other roles. The most recent in John Wick. About The Thin Man, I've seen the first film and wonder if the sequels are on par with the first film? If they are then I will place them in my watch-queue (which is getting longer by the minute....). Thanks for your kind words! I love a good murder-mystery puzzle plot any day, so I'm very impressed by that element in the movie (bloody ingenious on the part of Messrs. Sondheim and Perkins, I think!), but I think what sets it apart are the actors' performances. With the exception of Raquel Welch (who looks good enough in a bikini that I, as a red-blooded American male, can't really criticize), the acting is brilliantly done, especially from Joan Hackett and James Mason. Mason gives a grand, fully-rounded performance, which is an absolute joy because at this stage in his career he could have easily phoned it in, but instead he chose to invest fully in his character. (Sondheim later reported he was the only person in the cast to understand the movie as a whodunit!) Sheila is definitely one of my favorite movies--and so little seen and unavailable, more's the pity! As for The Thin Man, I hope you enjoyed the first one. I love it and find Powell and Loy hilarious, charming, debonair, wonderful... Well, as I said, I just love it. To answer your question, most fans actually consider the first sequel, After the Thin Man, to be even better. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I believe it is at least equal to the first. After that, the sequels gradually deteriorate, unfortunately. I'm a great fan of the third picture, Another Thin Man, which has the best puzzle/whodunit plot of all of them. It's not the best of the movies--it's not quite as funny, freewheeling, and joyous as the first two--but it is great fun with Nick and Nora. The rest have their moments, but none of them quite live up to the first three, especially as the studio wanted to add in more domestic, proto-family sitcom elements. Still, I would recommend them just for Powell and Loy's sheer charm and way of making a movie flow. Hope that helps! |
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 20:26:39 GMT
Man, I watched The Last of Sheila a few days ago and a big thank you for bringing it up. Really loved it and I couldn't agree more about the brilliant script and great acting from all the actors. Lee Marvin was great. At first I couldn't place the actor that played Anthony although I very much recognized him. Then realized that it was a much younger Ian McShane whom I've watched in the excellent series Deadwood and the too shortlived Kings as well as some other roles. The most recent in John Wick. About The Thin Man, I've seen the first film and wonder if the sequels are on par with the first film? If they are then I will place them in my watch-queue (which is getting longer by the minute....). Thanks for your kind words! I love a good murder-mystery puzzle plot any day, so I'm very impressed by that element in the movie (bloody ingenious on the part of Messrs. Sondheim and Perkins, I think!), but I think what sets it apart are the actors' performances. With the exception of Raquel Welch (who looks good enough in a bikini that I, as a red-blooded American male, can't really criticize), the acting is brilliantly done, especially from Joan Hackett ( is that whom you meant by "Lee Marvin"?--her character's name was Lee, but Lee Marvin the [male] actor wasn't in this movie) and James Mason. Mason gives a grand, fully-rounded performance, which is an absolute joy because at this stage in his career he could have easily phoned it in, but instead he chose to invest fully in his character. (Sondheim later reported he was the only person in the cast to understand the movie as a whodunit!) Sheila is definitely one of my favorite movies--and so little seen and unavailable, more's the pity! I just realized that you might have meant James Coburn's Clinton Green (the host, Sheila's widower). Coburn and Lee Marvin looked kinda similar and did a lot of the same types of roles. |
|
shield
Sophomore
Reading is to the mind what excercise is to the body
@shield
Posts: 776
Likes: 218
|
Post by shield on Mar 24, 2017 20:41:07 GMT
Thanks for your kind words! I love a good murder-mystery puzzle plot any day, so I'm very impressed by that element in the movie (bloody ingenious on the part of Messrs. Sondheim and Perkins, I think!), but I think what sets it apart are the actors' performances. With the exception of Raquel Welch (who looks good enough in a bikini that I, as a red-blooded American male, can't really criticize), the acting is brilliantly done, especially from Joan Hackett ( is that whom you meant by "Lee Marvin"?--her character's name was Lee, but Lee Marvin the [male] actor wasn't in this movie) and James Mason. Mason gives a grand, fully-rounded performance, which is an absolute joy because at this stage in his career he could have easily phoned it in, but instead he chose to invest fully in his character. (Sondheim later reported he was the only person in the cast to understand the movie as a whodunit!) Sheila is definitely one of my favorite movies--and so little seen and unavailable, more's the pity! I just realized that you might have meant James Coburn's Clinton Green (the host, Sheila's widower). Coburn and Lee Marvin looked kinda similar and did a lot of the same types of roles. Haha, yeah, I meant James Coburn and this is sadly not the first time I've gotten these two wrong. It's just one of those things and I can't help it. Thanks for the info on The Thin Man. Since I really enjoyed the first one I will try and watch the second and third at least if I can find them. First and second were also mentioned in a comedy-thread here and I marked it as interesting. Your comments clinched it. Thanks again! |
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 20:45:41 GMT
I just realized that you might have meant James Coburn's Clinton Green (the host, Sheila's widower). Coburn and Lee Marvin looked kinda similar and did a lot of the same types of roles. Haha, yeah, I meant James Coburn and this is sadly not the first time I've gotten these two wrong. It's just one of those things and I can't help it. Thanks for the info on The Thin Man. Since I really enjoyed the first one I will try and watch the second and third at least if I can find them. First and second were also mentioned in a comedy-thread here and I marked it as interesting. Your comments clinched it. Thanks again! No worries, makes sense! I should've realized you meant Coburn sooner! (As far as telling him and Marvin apart, for me it helps that I saw the Derek Flint movies when very young and so knew Coburn from that.) |
|
|
|
Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 24, 2017 22:38:36 GMT
teleadm "One can watch a Hitchcock movie many times over and know the outcome, it's how it's done that matters" TRUE BUT (big but) It's important to not know the secrets when it's the first time you see the picture. Pictures like "Witness for the Prosecution", "The Sixth Sense", "Laura", "Citizen Kane" and so many others are great to re-watch BUT seeing them with no idea of what is happening or why that first time .... wow !
|
|
|
|
Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 22:57:09 GMT
Teleadm, not revealing spoilers are important for any movie, no matter what the era. Bat Outtaheck emphasizes this too. It doesn't take much just to get rid of that one sentence. It'll take you less than a minute. Could you please do it? Even if you disagree with my position on not spoiling, could you just take the few seconds, as a personal favor to an other movie fan, and take out the sentence, or put it in a spoiler? It's not even crucial to your post! I believe I've been more than considerate with you about this. Salzmank If this is so important to you I try to erase all answers I gave My sincere thanks. Just to emphasize, the post is absolutely fine besides that one sentence. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say. So no need to erase all the answers, just that one line. I'll start deleting my responses re: the twist too. |
|
