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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 23:02:36 GMT
It was just a few movies for heavens sake! I understand. But, again, no reader should know the end of To Kill a Mockingbird or Catcher in the Rye before he reads it for himself. He may want to read the ending on his own. No reader should be told the twist to Agatha Christie's The Murder of Roger Ackroyd before he's gobsmacked for himself. And that's just a murder mystery, but it's a long-held aspect of analyzing a work of fiction not to spoil for those who have not read, watched, etc. the work. Every day, students in film classes are surprised by the ending of the movie Psycho. Now, that picture is 57 years old. But the students are surprised by it, nonetheless. Even my young cousin just saw it last year and was surprised by it. Imagine if they were told the twist, even generally, before watching it. ("'Mother' is actually Norman!" General? Yeah. But vital.) Would that diminish their enjoyment? Yes, very much so. They're just two silly movies, at the end of the day, but that fact shouldn't be allowed to deprive anyone of the ability to enjoy those movies as you and I did.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 23:06:44 GMT
Teleadm, I'm sorry that you were so offended by this point, enough to delete all your posts. I didn't, and don't, want you to do that. It's just one sentence. That's it. You brought up an interesting point in your original post about Dyan Cannon, and I'd love to talk about these movies, with the twists being, of course, in spoilers! I hope that we can yet do that.
Salzmank
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 24, 2017 23:27:29 GMT
Let's, absolutely, but at the moment I've got an appointment. Later tonight, I'll post some more, OK?
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 25, 2017 1:28:21 GMT
NalkarjOk ...so ... if one has never seen "Deathtrap and has read the 'details" would you recommend watching it anyway ? I see that it is over on that linky place whose name we never openly mention.
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Post by OldAussie on Mar 25, 2017 1:41:15 GMT
I think Deathtrap is a notch below Sheila but it's definitely worth a look. I always thought Deathtrap was Sleuth-lite with a dash of Les Diaboliques.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 25, 2017 2:14:34 GMT
OK, guys, I'm back, I'm back! teleadm(Appointment went well, Teleadm--thanks for your best wishes.) Interesting point you brought up about Dyan Cannon. To be perfectly honest, I'd say it was a coincidence that she was in both movies, but, hey, who knows? What I find most interesting is what Doghouse remarked upon before: how the two performances are quite different and at the same time very Dyan Cannon-esque--to wit, no one else could have played them. She's by no means a favorite actress of mine, but, in these movies, I don't think anyone else could have played the roles so well. (Interesting how, in Deathtrap, her screaming-and-yelling, very annoying performance was considered "bad acting" by the Razzies. The fact is, that's the whole point of the character!) BATouttaheckI don't know how much of Deathtrap has been spoiled for you, but, as unfortunate as that is, I would still advise seeing it. It's a witty, clever little twister of a picture, with some grand sets in particular--I love the wall of weapons in Michael Caine's study! The central twist is by far the cleverest and most shocking, which is why Sleuth may be in some ways superior (it has far twists after its "first act"; Deathtrap does too, but they're not as ingenious as the first), but I have to say that I prefer Deathtrap for a large variety of reasons, some of them probably solely sentimental. Still, I would recommend it. Well-directed, IMO, by Lumet: he opens it up enough for cinematic necessity but not too much to change the play's fundamental features, and coaxes grand performances out of the whole cast (with the possible exception of Irene Worth, who's funny but whose playing is a bit too broad), particularly Christopher Reeve. (P.S. I hope The Last of Sheila hasn't been spoiled for you. Have you seen that?) OldAussieObviously, Deathtrap (play and screenplay) was written in reaction to Sleuth (play and screenplay) and touches on many of the same themes. (In particular, one theme that is only implied in Sleuth is brought to the forefront in Deathtrap.) Just as Shaffer's play restricted itself with only two characters (a bit of a spoiler), so does Levin's give that restriction another twist. There's an interesting duality here with the two, sharing the same genre but one written in reaction to another, that also recalls the relationship between Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House (1959) and Richard Matheson's Hell House (1971). With all that said, I wouldn't call it " Sleuth-lite with a touch of Les Diaboliques." (In fact, I never realized its similarities to Les Diaboliques until Teleadm mentioned it; there are similar plot points, but I think they're done differently enough as not to become obvious, certainly not on first viewing.) In another words, while it fits in the same general genre as Sleuth (mystery, twisty thriller), and there is the similar plot aspect inasmuch as one character, who appears to be dead, is not actually dead , it isn't quite the same, or the "lite" version. Rather, it has its own driving impetus and motivations, cleverly and differently done. To wit, I see the two works more as a dialogue than as a repetition. Thanks for posting, guys!
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 25, 2017 17:54:03 GMT
OK, guys, I'm back, I'm back! teleadm(Appointment went well, Teleadm--thanks for your best wishes.) Interesting point you brought up about Dyan Cannon. To be perfectly honest, I'd say it was a coincidence that she was in both movies, but, hey, who knows? What I find most interesting is what Doghouse remarked upon before: how the two performances are quite different and at the same time very Dyan Cannon-esque--to wit, no one else could have played them. She's by no means a favorite actress of mine, but, in these movies, I don't think anyone else could have played the roles so well. (Interesting how, in Deathtrap, her screaming-and-yelling, very annoying performance was considered "bad acting" by the Razzies. The fact is, that's the whole point of the character!) Hope you saw the above message, Teleadm. Just like you, I wanted to start over again with these things.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 25, 2017 17:55:45 GMT
And, BATouttaheck, if you don't mind my asking, how much of Deathtrap has been spoiled for you? (And please put it in spoilers! )
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 25, 2017 18:02:56 GMT
Hope you saw the above message, Teleadm. Just like you, I wanted to start over again with these things. Teleadm's tied up with the garth game right now, salzmank. I'm sure he'll get back to you. (I had to leave the game; much too hard for me.) Got it, thanks, Spider.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 26, 2017 3:30:27 GMT
And, Bat Outtaheck, if you don't mind my asking, how much of Deathtrap has been spoiled for you? (And please put it in spoilers! ) Nalkarj Well, actually a LOT. As I said earlier, I really hate knowing what happens in a film before I see it the first time and especially if it's a film with a twist or a secret. BUT once I have seen a twisty film, or one with a secret,I like to re-watch to see what hints I may have missed. Sometimes watching the "making of" additions on a dvd or even going to the olde IMDb (1) board for a specific film (where things went spoiler-less) and reading details that may have been missed and then re-watching enhanced it all.
Am a major fan, and user, of spoilers.
Funny thing is, Deathtrap's title seemed familiar to me but I knew I had never seen it. It's on my shelf of new library sale unsorteds and unwatcheds. Now it's sort of like knowing the parentage and siblings of Luke Skywalker before seeing the series. Part of the fun is in finding out during the telling of the story.
These spoiler things are tricky here as they don't seem to show up until they are posted. There was supposed to be only one but three appeared.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 26, 2017 4:06:31 GMT
And, Bat Outtaheck, if you don't mind my asking, how much of Deathtrap has been spoiled for you? (And please put it in spoilers! ) Nalkarj Well, actually a LOT. As I said earlier, I really hate knowing what happens in a film before I see it the first time and especially if it's a film with a twist or a secret. BUT once I have seen a twisty film, or one with a secret,I like to re-watch to see what hints I may have missed. Sometimes watching the "making of" additions on a dvd or even going to the olde IMDb (1) board for a specific film (where things went spoiler-less) and reading details that may have been missed and then re-watching enhanced it all.
Am a major fan, and user, of spoilers.
Funny thing is, Deathtrap's title seemed familiar to me but I knew I had never seen it. It's on my shelf of new library sale unsorteds and unwatcheds. Now it's sort of like knowing the parentage and siblings of Luke Skywalker before seeing the series. Part of the fun is in finding out during the telling of the story.
These spoiler things are tricky here as they don't seem to show up until they are posted. There was supposed to be only one but three appeared. Yes, it is a little tricky on this forum re: spoilers, but if you put it to "BBCode" below instead of "Previews," you can see it say "spoiler." I've found that convenient, though I wish it could tell you the same in preview mode as well. Anyway... I'm asking because Teleadm unfortunately revealed the central twist in his post before he took it down. If that's the only spoiler about which you've read, though, you know the central twist, but there are still little bits that you don't know. On the other hand, if you know everything from the second act as well, you may still well like the movie, but your fun will unfortunately be diminished. I'm particularly fond of showing it to people who've never heard of it, just so that they can be gobsmacked by the twist. Just my two cents, of course.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 26, 2017 4:18:46 GMT
Nalkarj"Just my two cents, of course." From what I've read of your posts, your "2 cents" are worth MUCH more than that. Re: spoilers on last note. It's odd that I have to click all three to see the whole note but I "spoilered" it all as one unit. None of which has anything to do with Deathtrap... sorry for wandering off topic.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 26, 2017 4:52:33 GMT
Nalkarj "Just my two cents, of course." From what I've read of your posts, your "2 cents" are worth MUCH more than that. Re: spoilers on last note. It's odd that I have to click all three to see the whole note but I "spoilered" it all as one unit. None of which has anything to do with Deathtrap... sorry for wandering off topic. Ehh, wandering off-topic is just fine, me friend! Just fine indeed... I do it meself all the day long, be an off-topic wanderer... Forgive the lousy attempt at (what, stage Irish?) dialect. And thanks for your compliment! Very much appreciated, even if far too kind. So, on-topic, I'll repeat: what exactly do you know of Deathtrap's twists?
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 26, 2017 5:00:08 GMT
Nalkarj"what exactly do you know of Deathtrap's twists?" Basically just the part that got spilled in the unspoilered brouhaha earlier. and not a lousy attempt at all at all 'twas very good Barry Fitzgerald sound you have there, laddy. btw spell checker changed "laddy" to "lady" for me, kind thing, it tries so hard.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 26, 2017 5:11:34 GMT
Nalkarj "what exactly do you know of Deathtrap's twists?" Basically just the part that got spilled in the unspoilered brouhaha earlier. and not a lousy attempt at all at all 'twas very good Barry Fitzgerald sound you have there, laddy. btw spell checker changed "laddy" to "lady" for me, kind thing, it tries so hard. OK, swell, then you know the best twist but not all the twists. Act 2 still has some good points, after that--er--moment. And meself thanks ya for congratulatin' me on tryin' for to sound like the good Mr. Fitzgerald, a foine actor if I do say so meself, even after St. Patty's Day.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 26, 2017 5:20:51 GMT
NalkarjGood to know there's more to come after the big one.
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Post by london777 on Apr 2, 2017 2:10:38 GMT
Salzmank, I will never forgive you for recommending The Last of Sheila. It was bloody awful. I could have invested that $2.17 more wisely elsewhere. I will view your posts from now on with extreme prejudice. One thing intrigued me. James Mason's character was accused of being a child molester. Eleven years earlier he had played Humbert Humbert in Lolita (1962). I wondered if there were any other references like that which I missed. If you showed me that all the principles had previously played the category of malefactors which they were accused of being here, I would be more impressed.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Apr 2, 2017 2:33:16 GMT
Salzmank, I will never forgive you for recommending The Last of Sheila. It was bloody awful. I could have invested that $2.17 more wisely elsewhere. I will view your posts from now on with extreme prejudice. One thing about your curmudgeonly posts is that they do grab one's attention. Have now actually looked up The Last of Sheila which had somehow slipped under my radar even in this thread. My excuse , and I am sticking with it, is that I was distracted by the Deathtrap bruhaha. It sounds pretty darned good. Thanks for ranting against it in such a noteworthy manner. yep still the 1st ... whew ! But seriously, (assuming you weren't being serious about the $2.17), it does look very interesting.
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Post by OldAussie on Apr 2, 2017 2:53:11 GMT
Salzmank, I will never forgive you for recommending The Last of Sheila. It was bloody awful. I could have invested that $2.17 more wisely elsewhere. I will view your posts from now on with extreme prejudice. One thing intrigued me. James Mason's character was accused of being a child molester. Eleven years earlier he had played Humbert Humbert in Lolita (1962). I wondered if there were any other references like that which I missed. If you showed me that all the principles had previously played the category of malefactors which they were accused of being here, I would be more impressed. No....a LITTLE child molester
And I love the movie.
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Post by hi224 on Apr 2, 2017 3:28:01 GMT
So, this is relatively vague, and these movies probably don't count as "classics," but... What does everyone here think of Deathtrap and The Last of Sheila, two excellent mystery films (the former leaning towards the twisty thriller side and the latter towards the whodunit side), both of which aired on TCM the other night? I love both.
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