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Post by petrolino on Apr 2, 2017 3:30:21 GMT
What does everyone here think of Deathtrap and The Last of Sheila, two excellent mystery films (the former leaning towards the twisty thriller side and the latter towards the whodunit side), both of which aired on TCM the other night? I like both these movies. |
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Post by london777 on Apr 2, 2017 17:01:04 GMT
Salzmank, I will never forgive you for recommending The Last of Sheila. It was bloody awful. I could have invested that $2.17 more wisely elsewhere. I will view your posts from now on with extreme prejudice. One thing about your curmudgeonly posts is that they do grab one's attention. ... assuming you weren't being serious about the $2.17 ...
This board could do with more curmudgeons and fewer dizzy fanboys. $2.17 is a serious matter in our family. It is the dollar equivalent of 100 pesos, which buys my elder son lunch at school for four days. How can I explain to him that he will go hungry next week because I wasted money on that pile of crap? |
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Post by hi224 on Apr 2, 2017 21:59:00 GMT
Man, I watched The Last of Sheila a few days ago and a big thank you for bringing it up. Really loved it and I couldn't agree more about the brilliant script and great acting from all the actors. Lee Marvin was great. At first I couldn't place the actor that played Anthony although I very much recognized him. Then realized that it was a much younger Ian McShane whom I've watched in the excellent series Deadwood and the too shortlived Kings as well as some other roles. The most recent in John Wick. About The Thin Man, I've seen the first film and wonder if the sequels are on par with the first film? If they are then I will place them in my watch-queue (which is getting longer by the minute....). Thanks for your kind words! I love a good murder-mystery puzzle plot any day, so I'm very impressed by that element in the movie (bloody ingenious on the part of Messrs. Sondheim and Perkins, I think!), but I think what sets it apart are the actors' performances. With the exception of Raquel Welch (who looks good enough in a bikini that I, as a red-blooded American male, can't really criticize), the acting is brilliantly done, especially from Joan Hackett and James Mason. Mason gives a grand, fully-rounded performance, which is an absolute joy because at this stage in his career he could have easily phoned it in, but instead he chose to invest fully in his character. (Sondheim later reported he was the only person in the cast to understand the movie as a whodunit!) Sheila is definitely one of my favorite movies--and so little seen and unavailable, more's the pity! As for The Thin Man, I hope you enjoyed the first one. I love it and find Powell and Loy hilarious, charming, debonair, wonderful... Well, as I said, I just love it. To answer your question, most fans actually consider the first sequel, After the Thin Man, to be even better. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I believe it is at least equal to the first. After that, the sequels gradually deteriorate, unfortunately. I'm a great fan of the third picture, Another Thin Man, which has the best puzzle/whodunit plot of all of them. It's not the best of the movies--it's not quite as funny, freewheeling, and joyous as the first two--but it is great fun with Nick and Nora. The rest have their moments, but none of them quite live up to the first three, especially as the studio wanted to add in more domestic, proto-family sitcom elements. Still, I would recommend them just for Powell and Loy's sheer charm and way of making a movie flow. Hope that helps! Curious if you remade this who would you cast nowadays. |
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 3, 2017 15:58:27 GMT
Salzmank, I will never forgive you for recommending The Last of Sheila. It was bloody awful. I could have invested that $2.17 more wisely elsewhere. I will view your posts from now on with extreme prejudice. One thing about your curmudgeonly posts is that they do grab one's attention. Have now actually looked up The Last of Sheila which had somehow slipped under my radar even in this thread. My excuse , and I am sticking with it, is that I was distracted by the Deathtrap bruhaha. It sounds pretty darned good. Thanks for ranting against it in such a noteworthy manner. yep still the 1st ... whew !
But seriously, (assuming you weren't being serious about the $2.17), it does look very interesting.
Well, see, I don't know about that, Bat. "Curmudgeonly" is surly and bad-tempered, but the word also implies wisdom coming with the age, sometimes manifested in somewhat misanthropic ways. Florence King, Molly Ivins, Barbara Holland, W.C. Fields, George Bernard Shaw, John Derbyshire, Theodore Dalrymple--these people I would all describe as "curmudgeons." But here's the thing: they tended not to be rude, immature, or petty. In other words, they had the wisdom that comes with age. That, in my opinion, is the factor that distinguishes a curmudgeon from a nasty human being who makes value judgments about someone else just because he didn't like a movie that the other person recommended. |
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 3, 2017 16:51:24 GMT
Salzmank, I will never forgive you for recommending The Last of Sheila. It was bloody awful. I could have invested that $2.17 more wisely elsewhere. I will view your posts from now on with extreme prejudice. One thing intrigued me. James Mason's character was accused of being a child molester. Eleven years earlier he had played Humbert Humbert in Lolita (1962). I wondered if there were any other references like that which I missed. If you showed me that all the principles had previously played the category of malefactors which they were accused of being here, I would be more impressed. No....a LITTLE child molester
And I love the movie. LITTLE child molester
One of the great clues in the history of the genre. |
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 3, 2017 17:03:21 GMT
Thanks for your kind words! I love a good murder-mystery puzzle plot any day, so I'm very impressed by that element in the movie (bloody ingenious on the part of Messrs. Sondheim and Perkins, I think!), but I think what sets it apart are the actors' performances. With the exception of Raquel Welch (who looks good enough in a bikini that I, as a red-blooded American male, can't really criticize), the acting is brilliantly done, especially from Joan Hackett and James Mason. Mason gives a grand, fully-rounded performance, which is an absolute joy because at this stage in his career he could have easily phoned it in, but instead he chose to invest fully in his character. (Sondheim later reported he was the only person in the cast to understand the movie as a whodunit!) Sheila is definitely one of my favorite movies--and so little seen and unavailable, more's the pity! As for The Thin Man, I hope you enjoyed the first one. I love it and find Powell and Loy hilarious, charming, debonair, wonderful... Well, as I said, I just love it. To answer your question, most fans actually consider the first sequel, After the Thin Man, to be even better. I wouldn't quite go that far, but I believe it is at least equal to the first. After that, the sequels gradually deteriorate, unfortunately. I'm a great fan of the third picture, Another Thin Man, which has the best puzzle/whodunit plot of all of them. It's not the best of the movies--it's not quite as funny, freewheeling, and joyous as the first two--but it is great fun with Nick and Nora. The rest have their moments, but none of them quite live up to the first three, especially as the studio wanted to add in more domestic, proto-family sitcom elements. Still, I would recommend them just for Powell and Loy's sheer charm and way of making a movie flow. Hope that helps! Curious if you remade this who would you cast nowadays. Well, do you mean The Thin Man or The Last of Sheila, hi224? Because I can't imagine anyone nowadays who'd be charming, clever, or witty enough to star in the former (i.e., play the Charleses), but as for the latter... I was trying to think this over. Naturally, one problem is that some of the secrets would have to be changed. For example, Clinton probably couldn't use "homosexual" as a secret nowadays, unless that person--I don't know--was a Schwarzenegger-esque he-man of an actor. And that certainly wouldn't apply to Richard Benjamin's Tom! But I'll try some others. Do I even need to say the James Mason role would be given to Michael Caine? He seems the go-to for these things. Either that, or we could give it to Ian McShane, have some continuity with the original, just as Caine was Milo Tindle in the original Sleuth and Andrew Wyke in the remake. The McShane role, by the way, would have to be given to some big-name actor. I'm no expert on modern Hollywood stars, so you could probably fill in the blanks better than I on this point. Likewise, the Raquel Welch part would have to be some gorgeous actress, seen as petty and self-centered. And, I being me, I can't think of anyone at the moment. Sorry about that! Oh, and I might as well put it here: let's not get into the politics of the situation, please, but did anyone watch Neil Gorsuch's confirmation hearings? I ask because there were moments when he leaned back and smiled, and I laughed like crazy because he looked just like James Coburn!  |
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 4, 2017 2:06:52 GMT
I've just finished watching James Whale's Remember Last Night? (1935), which I've been meaning to watch for some time (Whale's one of my favorite directors) but of which I could never find a copy. (Universal Vault has it for free right now on YouTube--I don't know how long it'll be there, so if you're interested, check it out soon!) From the reviews I've read of it, it seems like a love-it-or-hate-it kind of film. While I frequently reject this simplistic of a dichotomy about any movie, it does seem that one can understand both reactions, even from fans of Whale's work! As for me, however, I found it very strong, on my second, if not first, tier of favorite Whale pictures. In many ways, it's a wacky, funhouse version of The Thin Man, filtered through Whale's wild sensibilities: incredibly stylized and art deco, with Robert Young and Constance Cummings's Tony and Carlotta Milburn being mirror-universe counterparts of Nick and Nora Charles. The most widely repeated criticism is that the characters are unlikable, and that is true--in the beginning. While the Milburns never become as charming as the Charleses (who could?), they do become more likable as the film progresses, and the repartee becomes more witty and clever. With that said, it's notable and apt that Whale and his writers choose not to replicate the Charleses (as was done in The Ex-Mrs. Bradford and Star of Midnight, both with William Powell essentially replaying Nick, albeit with a different "Nora," under a different name) but rather to offer a creative variation on their characters. Whale, by the way, doesn't hold back in his criticisms of the rich, with the party scene that opens the film showing them as vapid, self-centered, and moronic. (As noted, the Milburns do become more likable by the end.) The mystery plot, just as in The Thin Man, isn't all that great, but it is somewhat clever, even if very far-fetched. In the end, it is not The Thin Man, which remains far superior, but it is a very enjoyable "anti- Thin Man." A few highlights to bear in mind: the hypnotism scene (recalling Whale's horror efforts) and Gustav von Seyffertitz's Mephistophelian performance in it, the wild, typically Whalesian direction, the direct take-offs of scenes from The Thin Man (i.e., Milburn's having the cop arrest his wife, cf. the business in which Nick sends Nora to Grant's Tomb in the first TM and locks her in a closet in the second, and Milburn's exploration of Bouclier's house, cf. Nick's exploration of Clyde Wynant's laboratory), and the hearty, hilarious performances from Edward Brophy and especially Arthur Treacher! By the way, has anyone else here ever seen this one? |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Apr 5, 2017 0:07:33 GMT
Salzmank"... has anyone else here ever seen this one?" Not yet, but with that swell "free right now" link we have no excuse not to. Thanks. Maybe if I can stay awake later.
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 5, 2017 0:31:02 GMT
Salzmank "... has anyone else here ever seen this one?" Not yet, but with that swell "free right now" link we have no excuse not to. Thanks. Maybe if I can stay awake later. Well, if you do ever get a chance to give it a view, do let me know what you think. Just about everyone I know who knows about it has nigh-completely loved it or hated it, no in-between, which I think is very funny! |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Apr 5, 2017 0:34:08 GMT
Will do Salzmank and I shall come, spoilers in hand, with a full report. Soon ! |
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Post by Salzmank on Apr 5, 2017 1:02:04 GMT
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Post by Salzmank on Jun 28, 2017 15:49:54 GMT
Sorry to bump this old thread of mine, but I just found out something fascinating about the film adaptation of Clue ('85): Originally, the script was supposed to be another murder mystery (albeit a comedic one) written by our old friends Stephen Sondheim and Anthony Perkins! (Sadly, though, Perkins was very sick at that point and would pass away from AIDS complications in '92.) Now that would have made for a grand little movie... |
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Post by teleadm on Jun 28, 2017 19:09:36 GMT
Sorry to bump this old thread of mine, but I just found out something fascinating about the film adaptation of Clue ('85): Originally, the script was supposed to be written by our old friend Stephen Sondheim and Anthony Perkins! (Sadly, though, Perkins was very sick at that point and would pass away from AIDS complications in '92.) Now that would have been a grand little movie... Was Clue 1985 the first movie based an a board game? |
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Post by Salzmank on Jun 28, 2017 21:50:53 GMT
Was Clue 1985 the first movie based an a board game? As far as I know, yes, but then I'm not the best person to ask (and Clue has never been a favorite of mine, I'm afraid). |
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Post by Doghouse6 on Jun 28, 2017 23:18:16 GMT
Sorry to bump this old thread of mine, but I just found out something fascinating about the film adaptation of Clue ('85): Originally, the script was supposed to be another murder mystery (albeit a comedic one) written by our old friends Stephen Sondheim and Anthony Perkins! (Sadly, though, Perkins was very sick at that point and would pass away from AIDS complications in '92.) Now that would have made for a grand little movie... It's tantalizing to imagine how Clue might have turned out with a Sondheim/Perkins script, although as a John Landis project, it's difficult to envision it as being anywhere close to the tone of The Last Of Sheila, which deftly negotiated a fine line: with its lacerating humor and overall sense of fun, it doesn't take itself too seriously, but is a whodunit that viewers can take seriously; it's not frivolous in the satiric sense that Clue ultimately displayed (in the vein of films like Murder By Death or The Cheap Detective). For what it's worth, the story I've heard is that Sondheim and Perkins very much liked the idea, but that they couldn't reach an agreement because Paramount balked at their price. The preproduction stage would have been no later than early-mid '84, and Perkins wasn't diagnosed until two years before his 1992 passing; indeed, he was still performing before the cameras into that year. |
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Post by Salzmank on Jun 29, 2017 0:45:14 GMT
It's tantalizing to imagine how Clue might have turned out with a Sondheim/Perkins script, although as a John Landis project, it's difficult to envision it as being anywhere close to the tone of The Last Of Sheila, which deftly negotiated a fine line: with its lacerating humor and overall sense of fun, it doesn't take itself too seriously, but is a whodunit that viewers can take seriously; it's not frivolous in the satiric sense that Clue ultimately displayed (in the vein of films like Murder By Death or The Cheap Detective). For what it's worth, the story I've heard is that Sondheim and Perkins very much liked the idea, but that they couldn't reach an agreement because Paramount balked at their price. The preproduction stage would have been no later than early-mid '84, and Perkins wasn't diagnosed until two years before his 1992 passing; indeed, he was still performing before the cameras into that year. Many thanks for the information, Doghouse6, especially about Perkins, whose work I have always greatly enjoyed. While I agree with you about Sheila--Sondheim and Perkins were the true auteurs of the picture, and director Herbert Ross seemed to put very little of his own personality into it, unlike Landis, who puts something of his personality into his films--I can still see a Sondheim/Perkins Clue coming together. After Sheila, Perkins and Sondheim worked on The Chorus Girl Murder Case, which was supposedly more clearly a comedy (I would love to read a copy of that script!), and Sondheim has a broad comic touch in several of his musicals. Too, Clue even as it stands now--three endings!--is more influenced than Golden Age-style puzzle-plotting (like Sheila, of course) than Murder by Death. (That's not a criticism--I've never found Clue all that funny, and I love Murder by Death--just a comment that Clue is more influenced by the genre it's spoofing.) I'm sure you're correct re: Sondheim and Perkins' reasons for not doing it; knowing Sheila, it does seem exactly the sort of thing they would like... |
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Post by divtal on Jun 29, 2017 16:37:43 GMT
I saw Deathtrap on the stage, many years ago, and recall it as clever, and funny. I don't know why I never got around to seeing the film. I just remedied that, through an order from Netflix. I did see ...Sheila, in theater release, but have forgotten much. Perhaps, a hidden advantage of advancing years - everything old, becomes new again.  |
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Post by Salzmank on Jun 29, 2017 23:43:47 GMT
divtalI've seen Deathtrap on stage as well, and enjoyed it, but the acting wasn't quite as good as in the film version, and the character of Helga Ten Dorp (who seems the most wildly unrealistic of those presented) stuck out even more like a sore thumb. The ending (which I always felt was weak in the play) is slightly changed in the film adaptation, but I don't know that it's much of an improvement (I always found it somewhat incomprehensible)--my biggest criticism about the film, which I greatly enjoy. Let us know your thoughts when you see Sheila again! Salzmank
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Post by bonerxmas on Jun 29, 2017 23:50:02 GMT
Sorry to bump this old thread of mine, but I just found out something fascinating about the film adaptation of Clue ('85): Originally, the script was supposed to be written by our old friend Stephen Sondheim and Anthony Perkins! (Sadly, though, Perkins was very sick at that point and would pass away from AIDS complications in '92.) Now that would have been a grand little movie... Was Clue 1985 the first movie based an a board game? no, this was en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Fever |
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Post by Salzmank on Jun 30, 2017 0:01:48 GMT
Well, that's somewhat different, no? It's not as if the characters in the movie were kings, queens, bishops, knights, rooks, etc., and the plot were a series of chess moves! (Whereas the characters and plot of this movie are based on the game Clue.) |
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