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Post by PreachCaleb on Feb 7, 2018 14:20:18 GMT
I'm at the beginning of season 3 of Angel and it's just sad watching the gang grow closer together. Angel, Cordy, Wes, Gunn, and now Fred are really coming together as a family.
Yet, we know how the season will end for them. Angel at the bottom of the sea, trapped their by his own son. Cordy manipulated into ascending to a higher plain. Wes ostracized from the group he betrayed. Lorne off to Vegas. And Fred and Gunn alone. It's a fracturing that will never be fully repaired.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Jun 21, 2018 22:50:45 GMT
I'm at the beginning of season 3 of Angel and it's just sad watching the gang grow closer together. Angel, Cordy, Wes, Gunn, and now Fred are really coming together as a family. Yet, we know how the season will end for them. Angel at the bottom of the sea, trapped their by his own son. Cordy manipulated into ascending to a higher plain. Wes ostracized from the group he betrayed. Lorne off to Vegas. And Fred and Gunn alone. It's a fracturing that will never be fully repaired.
Yeah, season 3 started out so strong for the group and then it just falls a part by the end. But it was done so well that it doesn't bother me as much as it normally would. You are right, Caleb, in that they never truly recover from it, but I really chalk this up to the show being prematurely canceled. For me, they at least needed one more season to recapture that family bond aspect and get back to helping the hopeless. Season 3 is still my favorite season of Angel though.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 25, 2018 18:48:00 GMT
I'm at the beginning of season 3 of Angel and it's just sad watching the gang grow closer together. Angel, Cordy, Wes, Gunn, and now Fred are really coming together as a family. Yet, we know how the season will end for them. Angel at the bottom of the sea, trapped their by his own son. Cordy manipulated into ascending to a higher plain. Wes ostracized from the group he betrayed. Lorne off to Vegas. And Fred and Gunn alone. It's a fracturing that will never be fully repaired.
Yeah, season 3 started out so strong for the group and then it just falls a part by the end. But it was done so well that it doesn't bother me as much as it normally would. You are right, Caleb, in that they never truly recover from it, but I really chalk this up to the show being prematurely canceled. For me, they at least needed one more season to recapture that family bond aspect and get back to helping the hopeless. Season 3 is still my favorite season of Angel though.
Season 2 is my favorite, but I think Season 3 is the strongest season overall. Everything clicked. The characters, the writing, the look of the show. Angel really came into its own here.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jul 10, 2018 21:49:52 GMT
I think that's what's so great about the writing on Angel, for that season and the series as a whole; it takes you on such a rollercoaster ride, and it does it effectively and, for the most part, intentionally. And that's in such short order with a lot of main stream shows now.
Wesley's arc has always been, for me, a prime example of truly remarkable character development and storytelling. To take someone like the milquetoast dandy that was Wesley Wyndham Pryce from Buffy, have him grow a set of balls and become a competent character; and then, following that honed sense of reasoning, responsibility and the desperation to safeguard humanity and his friends, allows himself to be lead down the path of perdition and pays a heavy cost. And then it doesn't even end there! When they could have just as easily killed him off with a slit throat, instead they keep him alive - which on any other show would probably have been a given, but on this show, people seriously wondered if or how it could possibly happen; then that brilliant scene with Angel assuring him that he hadn't gone bad, that it's Angel and not Angelus, only to rage. But they take that and, after making sure Wesley had paid his penance, they bring him back and manage to fold him back in with the others. His solution to the water demon with the booze, finding Angel and pulling him out of the water; the great story of his ninja robot-father, and losing Fred.... It's just so good, and it's only the tip of the iceberg.....
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Fractured
Jul 26, 2018 3:48:02 GMT
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Jul 26, 2018 3:48:02 GMT
I think that's what's so great about the writing on Angel, for that season and the series as a whole; it takes you on such a rollercoaster ride, and it does it effectively and, for the most part, intentionally. And that's in such short order with a lot of main stream shows now.
Wesley's arc has always been, for me, a prime example of truly remarkable character development and storytelling. To take someone like the milquetoast dandy that was Wesley Wyndham Pryce from Buffy, have him grow a set of balls and become a competent character; and then, following that honed sense of reasoning, responsibility and the desperation to safeguard humanity and his friends, allows himself to be lead down the path of perdition and pays a heavy cost. And then it doesn't even end there! When they could have just as easily killed him off with a slit throat, instead they keep him alive - which on any other show would probably have been a given, but on this show, people seriously wondered if or how it could possibly happen; then that brilliant scene with Angel assuring him that he hadn't gone bad, that it's Angel and not Angelus, only to rage. But they take that and, after making sure Wesley had paid his penance, they bring him back and manage to fold him back in with the others. His solution to the water demon with the booze, finding Angel and pulling him out of the water; the great story of his ninja robot-father, and losing Fred.... It's just so good, and it's only the tip of the iceberg..... The characters are what makes me prefer Angel to Buffy. Buffy is still one of my all time favorite shows but in truth, Buffy nor Zander really grew on me. I’m on a Buffy rewatch now and find myself more irritated with those characters than before. I enjoyed all of the central characters on Angel, even the ones I hated like Conner. In a way I feel like the Buffy characters never matured past a close knit friendship into a family where the Angel cast come across as a family.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jul 27, 2018 20:36:19 GMT
The characters are what makes me prefer Angel to Buffy. Buffy is still one of my all time favorite shows but in truth, Buffy nor Zander really grew on me. I’m on a Buffy rewatch now and find myself more irritated with those characters than before. I enjoyed all of the central characters on Angel, even the ones I hated like Conner. In a way I feel like the Buffy characters never matured past a close knit friendship into a family where the Angel cast come across as a family. One discussion I do remember from the old board stemmed from how stunted the character development was after season 4; and in particular how the Scoobies had that huge falling out during season 4 that was never properly resolved. They just sort blamed Spike for using their own insecurities to drive wedges between them, but never addressed the root cause of that derision. Then by season 7, or even season 6, that unity just wasn't there any more; truly culminating in the blow-out in season 7's Empty Places, putting all the blame for Caleb kicking everyone's ass on Buffy and throwing her out of her own home. It then takes Faith leading them into another trap for them to contritely bring Buffy back, and even then their reconciliation and tenuous.
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Jul 27, 2018 22:34:17 GMT
The characters are what makes me prefer Angel to Buffy. Buffy is still one of my all time favorite shows but in truth, Buffy nor Zander really grew on me. I’m on a Buffy rewatch now and find myself more irritated with those characters than before. I enjoyed all of the central characters on Angel, even the ones I hated like Conner. In a way I feel like the Buffy characters never matured past a close knit friendship into a family where the Angel cast come across as a family. One discussion I do remember from the old board stemmed from how stunted the character development was after season 4; and in particular how the Scoobies had that huge falling out during season 4 that was never properly resolved. They just sort blamed Spike for using their own insecurities to drive wedges between them, but never addressed the root cause of that derision. Then by season 7, or even season 6, that unity just wasn't there any more; truly culminating in the blow-out in season 7's Empty Places, putting all the blame for Caleb kicking everyone's ass on Buffy and throwing her out of her own home. It then takes Faith leading them into another trap for them to contritely bring Buffy back, and even then their reconciliation and tenuous. I would have loved to have been part of that discussion but I don't recall posting on the old boards about the show. Your post reminds me of Dead Man's Party which I just watched a couple of days ago. I feel like even when they confront Buffy about her bad behavior they never follow it through. She felt fully justified in just taking off without a word to ANYONE and came back as if she should be accepted with open arms then pulled the 'poor me, you don't understand I'm the slayer!' nonsense and they all let it go. I'm definitely biased because I think Buffy is the root of their problems.
The Angel cast came in as adults and that's the major difference for me. They even gave little hints in Buffy that Cordelia was the most mature of them all even in her most shallow and vapid moments.
I don't even remember their falling out in Season 4, I'm on Season 3.
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Jul 28, 2018 15:04:48 GMT
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jul 28, 2018 15:04:48 GMT
I would have loved to have been part of that discussion but I don't recall posting on the old boards about the show. Your post reminds me of Dead Man's Party which I just watched a couple of days ago. I feel like even when they confront Buffy about her bad behavior they never follow it through. She felt fully justified in just taking off without a word to ANYONE and came back as if she should be accepted with open arms then pulled the 'poor me, you don't understand I'm the slayer!' nonsense and they all let it go. I'm definitely biased because I think Buffy is the root of their problems. The Angel cast came in as adults and that's the major difference for me. They even gave little hints in Buffy that Cordelia was the most mature of them all even in her most shallow and vapid moments. I don't even remember their falling out in Season 4, I'm on Season 3. It's the whole tail end arc of 4 with Spike sewing seeds of dissent between the Scoobies - making Giles doubt his relevance, telling Willow that her 'with thing& was just a phase, clearly giving the impression Buffy, et Al are uncomfortable with her being gay. Tell Xander they planned to send him to the military to help make him useful. Some of it were out and out lies, but much of it was based at least in part on observations he'd made about the group and their new dynamic since leaving high school and how they were starting to drift apart. Xander didn't even know Tara was Willow's girlfriend until they're fighting about the others have supposedly said to one another - she hadn't even come out to her oldest friend yet. But after they realize that Spike had been the one to light the match on everything, they have this awkward moment of being like, "it was all just Spike saying stuff, right? Yeah." Even though it clearly wasn't just that him, and then they never address any of that or try to reconcile it after that. The fight in Dead Man's Party has always felt similar to the fight in Empty Places, and I sometimes confuse what was said between the two. Like, I'm pretty sure it's not until Empty Places that Buffy brings up Xander delivering not Willow's message to "kick his ass" when confronting Angel; even though you would think season 3, when that was still more recent would have been the more likely time to bring that up, rather than 5 years later. But it does kind of underscore how repressed they all end up being, not dealing with any of their personal issues or problems between each other.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 30, 2018 13:28:37 GMT
The characters are what makes me prefer Angel to Buffy. Buffy is still one of my all time favorite shows but in truth, Buffy nor Zander really grew on me. I’m on a Buffy rewatch now and find myself more irritated with those characters than before. I enjoyed all of the central characters on Angel, even the ones I hated like Conner. In a way I feel like the Buffy characters never matured past a close knit friendship into a family where the Angel cast come across as a family. One discussion I do remember from the old board stemmed from how stunted the character development was after season 4; and in particular how the Scoobies had that huge falling out during season 4 that was never properly resolved. They just sort blamed Spike for using their own insecurities to drive wedges between them, but never addressed the root cause of that derision. Then by season 7, or even season 6, that unity just wasn't there any more; truly culminating in the blow-out in season 7's Empty Places, putting all the blame for Caleb kicking everyone's ass on Buffy and throwing her out of her own home. It then takes Faith leading them into another trap for them to contritely bring Buffy back, and even then their reconciliation and tenuous. Buffy and Willow do discuss it later in Primeval when they're in the elevator shaft breaking into the Initiative. It's not a big scene, but at least Buffy does realize it wasn't just Spike causing their troubles. Trouble was stir-upable, as she puts it.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jul 31, 2018 0:14:45 GMT
Yeah, but they never really dealt with it; mentioning that there is a problem isn't actually addressing the problem.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 31, 2018 13:01:02 GMT
But they did address and deal with it:
Willow: It's not your fault. Spike stirred up trouble.
Buffy: Yeah, but I think trouble was stir-uppable. I think we've all sort of drifted apart this year, don't you?
Willow: Maybe a little. But, you know, first year of college, it's hard to keep the old high school gang together.
Buffy: But I want it together. Will, I miss you. And Giles, and Xander. And it is my fault. I've been wrapped up in my own stuff, I've been a bad friend.
Willow: You're the Slayer, Buffy. Your stuff is pretty crucial.
Buffy: I mean Riley. And...Riley, mostly.
Willow: Well, I haven't been Miss Available either. I--I kept secrets. I hid things from everyone.
Buffy: That's not your fault. Will, you were going through something huge.
Willow: I wanted to tell you, but I was so scared.
Buffy: You can tell me anything. I love you. You're my best friend.
Willow: Me, too. I love you too.
Willow: Oh, falling now!
Buffy: Let's promise to never not talk again.
Willow: I promise, I promise.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Aug 1, 2018 2:02:36 GMT
But they did address and deal with it: Willow: It's not your fault. Spike stirred up trouble.
Buffy: Yeah, but I think trouble was stir-uppable. I think we've all sort of drifted apart this year, don't you?
Willow: Maybe a little. But, you know, first year of college, it's hard to keep the old high school gang together.
Buffy: But I want it together. Will, I miss you. And Giles, and Xander. And it is my fault. I've been wrapped up in my own stuff, I've been a bad friend.
Willow: You're the Slayer, Buffy. Your stuff is pretty crucial.
Buffy: I mean Riley. And...Riley, mostly.
Willow: Well, I haven't been Miss Available either. I--I kept secrets. I hid things from everyone.
Buffy: That's not your fault. Will, you were going through something huge.
Willow: I wanted to tell you, but I was so scared.
Buffy: You can tell me anything. I love you. You're my best friend.
Willow: Me, too. I love you too.
Willow: Oh, falling now!
Buffy: Let's promise to never not talk again.
Willow: I promise, I promise.That's actually the part I was talking about where they acknowledge that Spike was only really using their own issues against them. I don't consider that any sort of resolution than a token one; because even though they say these things and "promise to never not talk again," that's not what happens, there's no follow through and they only end up drifting further apart emotionally. By season 7 the only thing that seems to bind them together is commitment to "the mission". Giles continues to struggle to find relevance, to the point that he eventually does leave and go back to England; and when he returns for the long haul, his relationship with the others is never the same. Willow, Xander, Buffy all fail to really trust each other over the next three years. There's a mild resurgence of their unity in season 5, but come season 6 they're all too focused on themselves; Willow turns to magic, Buffy turns to Spike, Xander conjures a dancing demon who kills a bunch of people, in order to deal with his anxiety about his future with Anya, rather than actually talk to her or his friends, none of which gets resolved through song and dance; and he still ends up leaving Anya at the altar, because he's internalized everything. There is such a great lack of resolution, that Buffy is able to still bring up what happened in season 2 in season and it's a brand new revelation to Willow that Xander didn't actually deliver her real warning when confronting Angel; and everything else that's been building since this moment in season 4, and before, becomes a point of contention during their fight in Empty Places.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Aug 1, 2018 13:43:14 GMT
All of that,as you said, is in season 6, after Buffy's death and resurrection throws the entire dynamic into chaos.
Before that, they did make good on their promise. Season 5 is full of strong unity and family. The group is much more open with each other. Tara is officially made one of the scoobies, and every one rallies during Joyce's illness and death. Giles finds purpose training Buffy and running the magic shop.
The splintering of the group in season 6 comes not from the same issues in season 4, but worse ones. Buffy turns to Spike not because he's the new boy toy as with Riley, but because she's in a state of depression and doesn't feel anything except when she's with him. Giles doesn't leave because he feels Buffy doesn't need him as he felt in season 4. He feels Buffy is too dependent on him to the point of lacking any self reliance. Willow's not dealing with a change in sexuality, but an addiction. And Xander isn't feeling lost but terrified of repeating the same mistakes his parents made.
Just because new problems arose does not mean they didn't deal with what happened in season 4.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Aug 1, 2018 16:48:24 GMT
All of that,as you said, is in season 6, after Buffy's death and resurrection throws the entire dynamic into chaos. Before that, they did make good on their promise. Season 5 is full of strong unity and family. The group is much more open with each other. Tara is officially made one of the scoobies, and every one rallies during Joyce's illness and death. Giles finds purpose training Buffy and running the magic shop. The splintering of the group in season 6 comes not from the same issues in season 4, but worse ones. Buffy turns to Spike not because he's the new boy toy as with Riley, but because she's in a state of depression and doesn't feel anything except when she's with him. Giles doesn't leave because he feels Buffy doesn't need him as he felt in season 4. He feels Buffy is too dependent on him to the point of lacking any self reliance. Willow's not dealing with a change in sexuality, but an addiction. And Xander isn't feeling lost but terrified of repeating the same mistakes his parents made. Just because new problems arose does not mean they didn't deal with what happened in season 4. Just because the issues didn't boil over during season 5, doesn't mean they weren't still there. Giles was arguably going back to England one way or another, whether it was because he felt Buffy didn't need him or was too dependent, he was keen to leave and was only convinced to stay another year; and in either event believed Buffy would be fine without his presence. Willow's abuse of power didn't start in season 6, it invariably started from the moment she began using magic, but the more troubling displays of her willingness to turn to magic when she's in emotional distress - instead of turning to or leaning on her friends - starts in season 4 with her "thy will be done" spell, and continues in season 5 when we see a precursor to dark Willow, when she goes after Glory. Even Tara gets in on the dysfunctional fun of not giving the rest of the team the benefit of the doubt and uses a spell that backfires and puts the others in danger; rather than actually trusting the friends who have supposedly accepted her, and telling them horrible fact about her she believes to be true. And they move past it, not because she swears she'll never do it again, but because it's basically a right of passage, because everyone else has done the same thing, and continues to do so. We may not see a lot of Xander's inner turmoil in season 5, but he still continues his progression of living a life more disconnected from everyone else. He secures a good paying job that he's actually competent at, can afford a place of his own and basically lives this other, "normal" life by day, and in his spare time continues hanging out with the Scoobies. Buffy's Buffy in season 5. She's not talking with her friends about her and Riley, but she's not talking to Riley about their relationship either. Much of it is Riley's own neuroses, feeling insecure about Buffy's literal strength and independence, but Buffy's oblivious and takes a lot of the signs of that for granted. The biggest thing that obscures the underlying issues though is what's happening with Joyce and with Dawn & Glory. They don't have time for their own issues when Joyce is in the hospital and they feel the need to be there for Buffy. But even then, Riley's left out in the cold. Buffy doesn't lean on him, but she doesn't do a whole lot of leaning on anyone else in her corner during Joyce's health crisis or death. The closest would be after Joyce's death when she meets with Angel and is just there with him. Then after Joyce, there was still the issue with Glory, and there just wasn't any time for their own petty concerns. That doesn't mean the underlying issues, specifically their unwillingness or inability to talk with one another, or express what they were dealing with and rely on each other for emotional support wasn't still at play. These weren't new issues made out of whole cloth in season 6. Buffy and Spike weren't a case Spike being Buffy's new boy toy. Spike knew what it was, before it was much of anything; in "Once More with Feeling," he sings how, "Why you come to be with me, I think I finally know. You're scared, ashamed of what you feel. You can't tell the ones you love, you know they couldn't deal. A whisper in a dead man's ear doesn't make it real."
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Post by PreachCaleb on Aug 1, 2018 19:08:42 GMT
Because his slayer died. He didn't leave because of his issues from season 4, feeling useless to Buffy.
I'd say it started in season 3 when turned to doing the delusting spell without consulting Xander. But again, that's not reason for her splintering from the group in season 4. Willow became cut off, not because of her use of magic, but because of her relationship with Tara. She liked having Tara be just for her.
How so? Giles had a job and personal life all through seasons 1-3 as well yet it'd be hard to argue that disconnected him.
That's Riley's issue, not Buffy's. He made no effort to talk to her about it, instead turning to vampires. I have to disagree with Buffy not leaning on anyone. She turns to her friends. She discusses her mom's illness. Giles handles paperwork whenever he can. She brings the gang in on Dawn being the Key.
Because of her depression brought on by being ripped from heaven, not from something in season 4.
I will admit discussing and addressing a problem doesn't mean it just disappears. You're right. A lot of personal issues the characters face can be traced back to prior seasons (I'd wager they could be traced back to season 1 in some places), but it doesn't mean they didn't make an effort to deal with them.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Aug 2, 2018 3:04:31 GMT
I'm not saying they didn't make an effort, but it was a perfunctory one. They brought up the issues, but the underlying nature, the general trajectory their respective lives were on, compounded by their inability to actually communicate with one another about the issues most affecting each of them was the catalyst for the fracture in season 4, and doesn't improve fundamentally after that. Instead it gets worse. The important point isn't strictly the individual points, but the whole that's made of those point; it's the substance of their lives and the ways in which it affects them, for better or worse and how any of them cope with life's hardships, and what I'm getting at is, they don't. They don't talk to each other - in spite of them saying in season 4 that, that's exactly what they need to do, to avoid the problems of season 4 from manifesting again; they fail at that completely. They don't support each other or seek support. And for all of the things that were completely Riley's own problem, his insecurities, if you can't be vulnerable or at least be open to your supposed significant other, who can you? There are people who invariably don't want to be in that sort of relationship, because they're that independent, but I don't think that's who Buffy was supposed to be; we've seen her vulnerable side, but she couldn't be that way with Riley, and she couldn't unburden herself to Xander or Willow, or even Giles, which says something, for good or bad about the nature of their relationship. She was willing to lean on Angel, after the funeral, she's comfortable being vulnerable with him. It makes me think about the scene after Joyce's surgery, when everyone is happy it went well; and they're embracing and smiling, and Xander and Giles almost hug, then pull back. It's a funny bit, but I also kind of think it's sad, because after all this group has been through after five years, Xander and Giles don't have the sort of relationship where they can give each other a hug after receiving incredibly good news about someone of equal importance to them? I mean, in the scope of the series, it's not that outlandish to say they don't have much of a relationship - Giles doesn't appear to have been invited to Xander's wedding, or it didn't rise to the level that warranted his travel back to the states to attend; and he regularly shows disdain for everything Xander says or does. It's unfortunate, but not everyone in a close group of friends is necessarily close to everyone else.
But in that same regard, how do the other relationships really measure up?
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Aug 4, 2018 18:37:50 GMT
I'm not saying they didn't make an effort, but it was a perfunctory one. They brought up the issues, but the underlying nature, the general trajectory their respective lives were on, compounded by their inability to actually communicate with one another about the issues most affecting each of them was the catalyst for the fracture in season 4, and doesn't improve fundamentally after that. Instead it gets worse. The important point isn't strictly the individual points, but the whole that's made of those point; it's the substance of their lives and the ways in which it affects them, for better or worse and how any of them cope with life's hardships, and what I'm getting at is, they don't. They don't talk to each other - in spite of them saying in season 4 that, that's exactly what they need to do, to avoid the problems of season 4 from manifesting again; they fail at that completely. They don't support each other or seek support. And for all of the things that were completely Riley's own problem, his insecurities, if you can't be vulnerable or at least be open to your supposed significant other, who can you? There are people who invariably don't want to be in that sort of relationship, because they're that independent, but I don't think that's who Buffy was supposed to be; we've seen her vulnerable side, but she couldn't be that way with Riley, and she couldn't unburden herself to Xander or Willow, or even Giles, which says something, for good or bad about the nature of their relationship. She was willing to lean on Angel, after the funeral, she's comfortable being vulnerable with him. It makes me think about the scene after Joyce's surgery, when everyone is happy it went well; and they're embracing and smiling, and Xander and Giles almost hug, then pull back. It's a funny bit, but I also kind of think it's sad, because after all this group has been through after five years, Xander and Giles don't have the sort of relationship where they can give each other a hug after receiving incredibly good news about someone of equal importance to them? I mean, in the scope of the series, it's not that outlandish to say they don't have much of a relationship - Giles doesn't appear to have been invited to Xander's wedding, or it didn't rise to the level that warranted his travel back to the states to attend; and he regularly shows disdain for everything Xander says or does. It's unfortunate, but not everyone in a close group of friends is necessarily close to everyone else. But in that same regard, how do the other relationships really measure up? In a nutshell? They talk about the ‘what’ not the ‘why’ and that’s what makes their conversations superficial.
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