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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 1:06:02 GMT
How many more mass shootings and needless deaths will there need to be before Congress sees sense?
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 15, 2018 1:14:16 GMT
Won't happen. Too much money is made on the gun market.
Remember boys and girls: when money is front and centered, our lives don't matter!
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 15, 2018 1:28:49 GMT
Won't happen. Too much money is made on the gun market. Remember boys and girls: when money is front and centered, our lives don't matter! ALL LIVES MATTER!!!!11
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Post by politicidal on Feb 15, 2018 1:36:50 GMT
When someone tries this in Congress.
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Post by bravomailer on Feb 15, 2018 1:42:59 GMT
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Post by darkpast on Feb 15, 2018 1:49:58 GMT
not until the Terrorists "NRA" are defeated
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 2:31:45 GMT
That'd be a bad idea.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Feb 15, 2018 2:44:33 GMT
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Post by scabab on Feb 15, 2018 3:01:34 GMT
Why has something happened again?......
.....
Ah, shit.
Edit: They'll never get rid of them. It's too late for American now. While I love a lot of the things America has come out with and I've been there on holiday several times, I'm really glad I don't live there.
Thankfully they nipped it in the bud early in UK and banned them decades ago before they ever spread so it's just not a thing here.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 15, 2018 3:57:19 GMT
News say the gunman used a .223 caliber AR-15. Where the did the kid get a rifle like that? Are guns like these readily available for sale in the US?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 5:06:54 GMT
when Tristan stops his love for turd references
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Post by Daisy on Feb 15, 2018 5:22:24 GMT
Never.
Seen AMC's Into the Badlands? It's set in a future where guns are banned, 'barons' control land and resources and have armies of martial artists called 'clippers'...it's an awesome show. It's mostly about this one baron's head clipper - or 'regent' - who kicks ass but gets sick of his baron.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Feb 15, 2018 10:08:20 GMT
when Tristan stops his love for turd references or when you acknowledge and stop denying that calling black people "monkeys" is a racist slur, which will likely never happen.
But there is hope: Civil and social progress has not so much been achieved by people changing their views and values, but by the old idiots dying off and a new generation seeing and doing it differently.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 15, 2018 10:31:07 GMT
I wouldn't say it would never happen, but I seriously doubt it will happen in any of our lifetimes.
Note that I'm not arguing the following, I'm simply explaining why not only is it the case that guns aren't going to be banned in the U.S. anytime soon, but that conversation isn't even going to get off the ground:
Too many people see gun ownership as something that should be a fundamental right in the U.S., and the rhetoric is dominant that it wouldn't do any good in the U.S. anyway, because there are already so many guns in circulation that if they were banned, then only criminals would have guns, and they'd still easily have access to them. (Not to mention that it's not that difficult to illegally manufacture them.)
Of course our political system has a lot to do with it, in that lobbyists can influence things so significantly--that would likely need to change, too, but that's not all there is to it. Gun ownership, its importance and its necessity are too woven into American culture for that to come unraveled anytime soon.
Incidents like yesterday's school shooting are seen as evidence of the importance of gun ownership. The idea is that psychos like that are going to have guns anyway, because there are so many in circulation, and as a criminal with murderous intent, they'd not hesitate to do something illegal to acquire the weapon. Thus, the thinking goes, it's necessary for law-abiding citizens to have guns for protection against those sorts of folks. That gun ownership didn't stop this incident isn't seen as evidence of the ineffectiveness of gun ownership. It's instead seen as an argument that we need to have more law-abiding gun owners who are well-trained.
So you can't think that any incident is going to get a gun ban started. You'd need to figure out a way to undermine the cultural tropes re gun ownership as an important right, etc.--and I haven't the faintest idea how you could begin to do that, plus you'd need to change the entire structure of how our political system works (re lobbyists, re the fact that campaigns can only be successful with a lot of donor money behind them, etc.), and that might require changing how our economy works. There's too much money involved for any of that change to be anything but monumentally difficult.
Adding to the difficulty is that Americans are maybe even more resistant than humans tend to be in general to significant cultural changes. When you realize that not only are we still not using the metric system for most things, but there hasn't even been a serious proposal to change over to it in decades, you will get a better idea of how resistant to change folks are. With the metric system, they realized we'd never just make a decision to change over, so there have been attempts to gradually acclimate folks to it instead, to kind of sneak it in the back door, but so far that's mostly been successful only when it comes to liters of soda . . . which isn't much of a success.
The way the tropes got into our culture in the first place, by the way, was through a combination of the revolutionary nature of the origin of the country and the practical benefits of gun ownership in a country that could be quite dangerous--because of pissed-off natives, because of relative lawlessness correlated to its size as it expanded geographically, and because of the fact that so much of it was wilderness full of things like bears and large wild cats (cougars, panthers, etc.)--as it was being settled. So that's woven deep into the country's consciousness, so to speak, where those values have been passed on for many generations.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 15, 2018 12:05:41 GMT
The sad thing about America is the fact that it may take another Civil War for anything to be done with guns.
This country worships guns more than celebrities.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Feb 15, 2018 12:09:58 GMT
The sad thing about America is the fact that it may take another Civil War for anything to be done with guns. This country worships guns more than celebrities. A problem with that is that it would be difficult for the anti-gun side to be triumphant without being hypocritical, and if they're going to be that hypocritical, probably a lot of folks will change their minds. "Geez, well look at what guns just helped us do. Should we really get rid of them?" It would be a revolutionary charge similar to the revolutionary charge that's a large part of how gun culture was so woven into the U.S. in the first place.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 15, 2018 12:21:48 GMT
The sad thing about America is the fact that it may take another Civil War for anything to be done with guns. This country worships guns more than celebrities. A problem with that is that it would be difficult for the anti-gun side to be triumphant without being hypocritical, and if they're going to be that hypocritical, probably a lot of folks will change their minds. "Geez, well look at what guns just helped us do. Should we really get rid of them?" It would be a revolutionary charge similar to the revolutionary charge that's a large part of how gun culture was so woven into the U.S. in the first place. True. I don't know man, this country has made a habit of either turning to violence as a solution to a problem or just using someone as a scapegoat for it. Marilyn Manson was blamed for the Columbine shooting for Christ sake.
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Post by outrider127 on Feb 15, 2018 13:09:20 GMT
The same time guns will be outlawed in Finland, which will be never--Finland had 2 school shootings in 2008 and 2009, 8 people killed in each shooting(both shooters were bullied)--Germany, which has gun control, had 2 school massacres in 2002 and 2009, in which 16 people were killed in each one--Scotland has gun control, but that didn't stop a shooter from killing 16 little 4 year old children--Canada has gun control but that didn't stop the Montreal Massacre at that school where 14 women students were killed--or the recent Quebec shooting where that white guy killed all those Muslims in a mosque--France had the Nanterre massacre where 9 people were shot dead in 2002--Switzerland, which has liberal gun laws like the US, had the Zug massacre in 2002 where 14 people were shot dead--Japan, which has strict gun control laws, 8 people were shot to death in 2001 shooting--and the strict gun laws in Japan didn't prevent that massacre last year, the guy stabbing 40 old people in one night, 20 of them fatally
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 13:36:27 GMT
The same time guns will be outlawed in Finland, which will be never--Finland had 2 school shootings in 2008 and 2009, 8 people killed in each shooting(both shooters were bullied)--Germany, which has gun control, had 2 school massacres in 2002 and 2009, in which 16 people were killed in each one--Scotland has gun control, but that didn't stop a shooter from killing 16 little 4 year old children--Canada has gun control but that didn't stop the Montreal Massacre at that school where 14 women students were killed--or the recent Quebec shooting where that white guy killed all those Muslims in a mosque--France had the Nanterre massacre where 9 people were shot dead in 2002--Switzerland, which has liberal gun laws like the US, had the Zug massacre in 2002 where 14 people were shot dead--Japan, which has strict gun control laws, 8 people were shot to death in 2001 shooting--and the strict gun laws in Japan didn't prevent that massacre last year, the guy stabbing 40 old people in one night, 20 of them fatally Dude, all the crimes you mentioned have taken place over a near 20 year period. America could probably match that level of carnage within the last couple of years. (that's without including the one off shootings that happen every single day)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 14:26:32 GMT
The reason why we have the 2nd Amendment is because the founders believed that citizens should be able to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. And if you think that a democratic government going tyrannical is unrealistic, just crack open a history book.
There's no such thing as "true" gun control. Someone is always going to have weapons. Do you want the only people with guns to be criminals and the government (the same government that many believe are Nazis who support cops "assassinating" black people out in the streets)? Obviously not. The first thing the actual Nazis did before rounding up the Jews in Germany was make sure they couldn't defend themselves.
So the debate isn't even really about owning guns. It's about the right to defend yourself. And the reality is that you can't do that without weapons.
All that said, I think there is room for debate when discussing if there should be more rules and regulations around what kinds of weapons you can have. But the idea that we can just "ban" guns is foolish. It's neither reasonable nor desirable.
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