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Post by THawk on Feb 15, 2018 23:55:26 GMT
The more I think about the ending, the more T'Challa's choice to allow Killmonger to die seems extremely unethical and un-hero like. Especially when it was clearly established that Killmonger could have been medically saved and lived. Yeah he had a nice ending quote about not being a slave and all and a cool sunset death scene, but....you would totally expect the hero to save him. Yes there would have been punishment and some kind of imprisonment, but if Wakanda really is an advanced nation, there should be a path for him to grow and be reformed and realize the error of his ways and start doing the right thing. Even if it takes a while. He was a confused soul that needed guidance.
What a difference from Captain America, who was ready to give his own life so that Bucky could see the error of his ways. That's why IMO Cap will always be the true hero of the Marvel universe.
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Post by hobowar on Feb 16, 2018 0:40:11 GMT
Was there really a choice? It looked like he chose to die in my opinion.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 16, 2018 5:40:32 GMT
Was there really a choice? It looked like he chose to die in my opinion. Yeah, not sure what Rorschach is talking about here. T'Challa offered to save him but Killmonger refused and pulled the blade out, essentially killing himself.
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Post by THawk on Feb 16, 2018 13:42:45 GMT
Was there really a choice? It looked like he chose to die in my opinion. Yeah, not sure what Rorschach is talking about here. T'Challa offered to save him but Killmonger refused and pulled the blade out, essentially killing himself. But he should have saved him. He should have taken him to their nearest medical facility, rather than up the elevator for a prolonged sunset death scene. He's not the Punisher, he is supposed to be a king, the protector of his people and all that. If he was a medical professional, he'd be getting charged with malpractice. You can't just let someone die because they say they want to. I feel that the movie should have way more clearly presented that Killmonger was absolutely going to die and there was no saving him.
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Post by DSDSquared on Feb 16, 2018 14:23:23 GMT
Yeah, not sure what Rorschach is talking about here. T'Challa offered to save him but Killmonger refused and pulled the blade out, essentially killing himself. But he should have saved him. He should have taken him to their nearest medical facility, rather than up the elevator for a prolonged sunset death scene. He's not the Punisher, he is supposed to be a king, the protector of his people and all that. If he was a medical professional, he'd be getting charged with malpractice. You can't just let someone die because they say they want to. I feel that the movie should have way more clearly presented that Killmonger was absolutely going to die and there was no saving him. I thought that should happen too, but I will say that patients can absolutely choose to die. That is was a DNR is for.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 16, 2018 19:56:47 GMT
The more I think about the ending, the more T'Challa's choice to allow Killmonger to die seems extremely unethical and un-hero like. Especially when it was clearly established that Killmonger could have been medically saved and lived. Yeah he had a nice ending quote about not being a slave and all and a cool sunset death scene, but....you would totally expect the hero to save him. Yes there would have been punishment and some kind of imprisonment, but if Wakanda really is an advanced nation, there should be a path for him to grow and be reformed and realize the error of his ways and start doing the right thing. Even if it takes a while. He was a confused soul that needed guidance. What a difference from Captain America, who was ready to give his own life so that Bucky could see the error of his ways. That's why IMO Cap will always be the true hero of the Marvel universe. "Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships because they knew death was better than bondage”. - Killmonger Sounds like he had his mind made up about his fate.
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Post by kleinreturns on Feb 16, 2018 19:58:37 GMT
Interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 21:32:47 GMT
Guy was an extremist, he wanted to die. If BP tried to save him against his will, killmonger might have taken the blade out and stuck it in t'challa's neck when he least expected it
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 16, 2018 21:42:46 GMT
Guy was an extremist, he wanted to die. If BP tried to save him against his will, killmonger might have taken the blade out and stuck it in t'challa's neck when he least expected it This. Even if they put him in jail do you really think it would have done any good? It would just give him years to plot an escape and another attempt at killing t'challa. Killmonger was a radical extremist, he's dangerous. It's better to give him his peaceful death than risk another coup from him.
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Post by dazz on Feb 16, 2018 23:15:43 GMT
Yeah, not sure what Rorschach is talking about here. T'Challa offered to save him but Killmonger refused and pulled the blade out, essentially killing himself. But he should have saved him. He should have taken him to their nearest medical facility, rather than up the elevator for a prolonged sunset death scene. He's not the Punisher, he is supposed to be a king, the protector of his people and all that. If he was a medical professional, he'd be getting charged with malpractice. You can't just let someone die because they say they want to. I feel that the movie should have way more clearly presented that Killmonger was absolutely going to die and there was no saving him. Doctors cant forcibly treat patients unless the patient is clearly incapable of making choices for themselves, if a patient of sound mind tells a medical professional they refuse treatment or life saving measures and those people perform said procedures anyway they can be legally held accountable for breaching a patients wishes, same as you cannot just force feed people if they go on hunger strike so long as their not declared unfit to make those choices you have to let them do as they please.
I haven't seen the film yet but from what I gather Killmonger's choice fit with his mentality and his resolve he refused to be oppressed and was willing to die to ensure he and others weren't, T'Challa forcing him to live as a prisoner would be spitting in Killmonger face, T'Challa basically saying "F U I'm king you do as I say", he may have saved Zemo to force him to serve his sentence but Zemo wanted to die as relief from his pain after commiting brutal acts of violence, Killmonger wanted to die free rather than live as a prisoner, and given why Killmonger feels the way he does T'Challa owes him the right to choose he didn't owe Zemo that, so all in all Killmonger choosing death over prison proves his resolve in what he believed in and also shows T'Challa's compassion as he allowed him to make that choice, which is more heroic than him just forcing his will on people.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 16, 2018 23:49:40 GMT
But he should have saved him. He should have taken him to their nearest medical facility, rather than up the elevator for a prolonged sunset death scene. He's not the Punisher, he is supposed to be a king, the protector of his people and all that. If he was a medical professional, he'd be getting charged with malpractice. You can't just let someone die because they say they want to. I feel that the movie should have way more clearly presented that Killmonger was absolutely going to die and there was no saving him. Doctors cant forcibly treat patients unless the patient is clearly incapable of making choices for themselves, if a patient of sound mind tells a medical professional they refuse treatment or life saving measures and those people perform said procedures anyway they can be legally held accountable for breaching a patients wishes, same as you cannot just force feed people if they go on hunger strike so long as their not declared unfit to make those choices you have to let them do as they please.
I haven't seen the film yet but from what I gather Killmonger's choice fit with his mentality and his resolve he refused to be oppressed and was willing to die to ensure he and others weren't, T'Challa forcing him to live as a prisoner would be spitting in Killmonger face, T'Challa basically saying "F U I'm king you do as I say", he may have saved Zemo to force him to serve his sentence but Zemo wanted to die as relief from his pain after commiting brutal acts of violence, Killmonger wanted to die free rather than live as a prisoner, and given why Killmonger feels the way he does T'Challa owes him the right to choose he didn't owe Zemo that, so all in all Killmonger choosing death over prison proves his resolve in what he believed in and also shows T'Challa's compassion as he allowed him to make that choice, which is more heroic than him just forcing his will on people.
I want to add too that the zemo thing happened on foreign soil, to T'CHALLA at least, so he probably felt it would be better for the United Nations to decide zemo fate. Killmonger had tied to wakanda, so it made more sense for T'challa to be the one to decide what killmonger fate was.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 14, 2018 5:29:29 GMT
But he should have saved him. He should have taken him to their nearest medical facility, rather than up the elevator for a prolonged sunset death scene. He's not the Punisher, he is supposed to be a king, the protector of his people and all that. If he was a medical professional, he'd be getting charged with malpractice. You can't just let someone die because they say they want to. I feel that the movie should have way more clearly presented that Killmonger was absolutely going to die and there was no saving him. I thought that should happen too, but I will say that patients can absolutely choose to die. That is was a DNR is for. What the fuck are you talking about? DNR applies to patients in a coma. Killmonger wasn't in a coma. So T'Challa basically decided that he would execute Killmonger without any trial.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 14, 2018 5:32:07 GMT
The more I think about the ending, the more T'Challa's choice to allow Killmonger to die seems extremely unethical and un-hero like. Especially when it was clearly established that Killmonger could have been medically saved and lived. Yeah he had a nice ending quote about not being a slave and all and a cool sunset death scene, but....you would totally expect the hero to save him. Yes there would have been punishment and some kind of imprisonment, but if Wakanda really is an advanced nation, there should be a path for him to grow and be reformed and realize the error of his ways and start doing the right thing. Even if it takes a while. He was a confused soul that needed guidance. What a difference from Captain America, who was ready to give his own life so that Bucky could see the error of his ways. That's why IMO Cap will always be the true hero of the Marvel universe. "Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships because they knew death was better than bondage”. - Killmonger Sounds like he had his mind made up about his fate. So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die?
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 14, 2018 5:37:05 GMT
But he should have saved him. He should have taken him to their nearest medical facility, rather than up the elevator for a prolonged sunset death scene. He's not the Punisher, he is supposed to be a king, the protector of his people and all that. If he was a medical professional, he'd be getting charged with malpractice. You can't just let someone die because they say they want to. I feel that the movie should have way more clearly presented that Killmonger was absolutely going to die and there was no saving him. Killmonger wanted to die free rather than live as a prisoner, and given why Killmonger feels the way he does T'Challa owes him the right to choose
So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die? shows T'Challa's compassion as he allowed him to make that choice That wasn't compassion. That was T'Challa deciding that he would execute a prisoner without any trial.
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Post by Power Ranger on Oct 14, 2018 5:41:12 GMT
Killmonger wanted to die free rather than live as a prisoner, and given why Killmonger feels the way he does T'Challa owes him the right to choose
So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die? shows T'Challa's compassion as he allowed him to make that choice That wasn't compassion. That was T'Challa deciding that he would execute a prisoner without any trial. Like he wanted to kill Bucky, who was actually innocent. Oops.
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Post by dazz on Oct 14, 2018 12:45:54 GMT
Killmonger wanted to die free rather than live as a prisoner, and given why Killmonger feels the way he does T'Challa owes him the right to choose
So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die? shows T'Challa's compassion as he allowed him to make that choice That wasn't compassion. That was T'Challa deciding that he would execute a prisoner without any trial. No because even though you have taken 8 months to formulate this idiotic argument you fail to observe that Killmonger was not mentally incapable of making rationale choices, or that there is a difference between letting someone die and letting them kill themselves, and that a warden actually doesn't have the right or the power to make those choices.
If someone tries to kill themselves without being observed you can naturally assume they were not in the right state of mind to make that choice hence why most suicide attempts are given medical treatment if needed, but someone dying of a disease or an injury and conscious enough to convey their wishes can choose whether they want to receive treatment of not, and yes a prisoner can refuse treatment.
I get you were mentally short changed at birth so some of these concepts are beyond you but adhering to a persons wishes even if they go against your own does not equate to execution, T'Challa clearly wanted Killmonger to be given treatment, Killmonger wanted to die rather than be held in chains, that's not an execution you simpleton, same as how a cop killing and armed suspect in self defence is not an execution.
Seriously dude read a fucking dictionary sometime and learn what most of these words you regularly misuse actually mean, you wont look as mentally deficient if you did.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Oct 14, 2018 16:17:13 GMT
"Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships because they knew death was better than bondage”. - Killmonger Sounds like he had his mind made up about his fate. So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die? Is the prisoner is this scenario the one who tried to start a race war? Because I fully support him killing himself.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 14, 2018 18:09:28 GMT
So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die? That wasn't compassion. That was T'Challa deciding that he would execute a prisoner without any trial. Killmonger wanted to die rather than be held in chains, that's not an execution you simpleton, same as how a cop killing and armed suspect in self defence is not an execution.
Killmonger wasn't armed and wasn't fighting back so the self-defense claim is invalid. And often prisoners want to die rather than live in prison. But the cops and the warden and the prison guards don't kill every prisoner who wants to die rather than live prison or help every prisoner who dies rather than live in prison die. No matter how you sugar-coat it, it was an execution of a prisoner without a trail. Now if you argue that it was T'Challa's right to execute Killmonger without a trial since T'Challa was King of Wakanda, then you would have a valid argument since Wakanda appears to be an absolute monarchy where the King has absolute power to decide who lives or dies without any trial (although the execution of a US citizen without a trial would cause other problems in foreign relations, that's probably why Wakanda stays isolated from the rest of the world - so they can execute citizens of foreign countries without a trial). But to argue self-defense or compassion or anything else is just stupid and invalid. It was clearly an execution of a prisoner without a trial.
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Post by DC-Fan on Oct 14, 2018 18:12:00 GMT
So when a prisoner in jail tells the warden "I can't live in jail. Give me a rope so I can hang myself in my cell.", the warden should give him a rope and help him die? Is the prisoner is this scenario the one who tried to start a race war? Because I fully support him killing himself. That's not what I ask. The question isn't if you support a prisoner who wants to die rather than live in prison killing himself. The question is if you support a warden or prison guards helping a prisoner who wants to die rather than live in prison to die without a capital sentence handed down by a jury.
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