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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 21:19:47 GMT
Precisely! He was in heaven and then was cast out of heaven. More specifically , the Book of Revelation, a.k.a., The Revelation of Jesus Christ, contains an historic account of when the dragon was in heaven, thus, "in Revelation," the "dragon is in heaven." That's fine, but you said it was going to smack me if I went to heaven so there may be a timeline issue which is to be expected when discussing revelation. Noooooo....I said not to let it slap you on your way out of heaven.
Clearly, I consider you an angel, CoolJGS.  Of the fallen sort.  Either that or I was just kidding with you.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 21:53:35 GMT
ok so that presumes that revelation is actually a prophesy and not a recounting of the fall of the first temple. Part of the problem is this boxing in of Revelation like it has to be one or the other. Revelation is a book of history, current events, near future events and far future events. Sorry, I'm not reading all that. If you have a point, I'll listen to it, though. That is the point, but you are welcome to ignore it.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 21, 2018 21:59:06 GMT
Part of the problem is this boxing in of Revelation like it has to be one or the other. Revelation is a book of history, current events, near future events and far future events. Sorry, I'm not reading all that. If you have a point, I'll listen to it, though. That is the point, but you are welcome to ignore it. It's definitely not a recounting of the fall of the first temple. In fact, what Paul, Revelation, & Jesus teach are all in pretty good harmony that the blog link might miss. I couldn't read it all, but the title did not foretell good results.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:09:20 GMT
Part of the problem is this boxing in of Revelation like it has to be one or the other. Revelation is a book of history, current events, near future events and far future events. Sorry, I'm not reading all that. If you have a point, I'll listen to it, though. That is the point, but you are welcome to ignore it. Okay. I'm not going to read several paragraphs. Anything can be paraphrased in a sentence or two and that is what I would be willing to read.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:11:05 GMT
That is the point, but you are welcome to ignore it. It's definitely not a recounting of the fall of the first temple. In fact, what Paul, Revelation, & Jesus teach are all in pretty good harmony that the blog link might miss. I couldn't read it all, but the title did not foretell good results. Indeed, many events described in Revelation provably did not happen in 70 AD.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:13:06 GMT
That is the point, but you are welcome to ignore it. It's definitely not a recounting of the fall of the first temple. In fact, what Paul, Revelation, & Jesus teach are all in pretty good harmony that the blog link might miss. I couldn't read it all, but the title did not foretell good results. The link had nothing to do with revelation, but reading it may have been a good idea if you wanted to understand. I can't remember where I read about revelation being an historical account rather than prophecy, but it was interesting.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:13:50 GMT
That is the point, but you are welcome to ignore it. Okay. I'm not going to read several paragraphs. Anything can be paraphrased in a sentence or two and that is what I would be willing to read. sometimes you need to put more effort than reading a cliff notes version if you want to further your knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:18:17 GMT
It's definitely not a recounting of the fall of the first temple. In fact, what Paul, Revelation, & Jesus teach are all in pretty good harmony that the blog link might miss. I couldn't read it all, but the title did not foretell good results. The link had nothing to do with revelation, but reading it may have been a good idea if you wanted to understand. I can't remember where I read about revelation being an historical account rather than prophecy, but it was interesting. Revelation is an historic account. And a current one. And a future one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:19:16 GMT
Okay. I'm not going to read several paragraphs. Anything can be paraphrased in a sentence or two and that is what I would be willing to read. sometimes you need to put more effort than reading a cliff notes version if you want to further your knowledge. I doubt that's the case this time. You could summarize your argument in one sentence if you wanted.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:22:58 GMT
The link had nothing to do with revelation, but reading it may have been a good idea if you wanted to understand. I can't remember where I read about revelation being an historical account rather than prophecy, but it was interesting. Revelation is an historic account. And a current one. And a future one. pardon me. solely historic. Pedancy really is your forte isn't it.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:23:36 GMT
sometimes you need to put more effort than reading a cliff notes version if you want to further your knowledge. I doubt that's the case this time. You could summarize your argument in one sentence if you wanted. You can doubt it as much as you like.
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Post by goz on Feb 21, 2018 22:24:04 GMT
can you please quote the specific scripture that makes you say God will begin dealing exclusively with the Jews and also how Jesus message (which I was pretty sure was salvation for all and radical acceptance) would go with this. Please do not be vague, be specific and back it up with scripture. I'll quote scripture here, but it won't help you much if you haven't read the entire Bible and if you don't understand the entire Bible, because there are dozens and dozens of passages that build to this conclusion. But here is the scripture that most directly answers your question: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Arrogance alert*** You are talking to a fellow Christian and acknowledged student of the Bible here. Your arrogance is astounding! To be fair you may not know, being a newish poster that he was married to a minister of religion and takes his faith and the philosophies of religious thought very seriously. ALSO, it does the Christian religion no credit, in the middle of a thread about black people and slavery and Christianity, for it to devolved into a 'Chapter and Verse' contest in oneupmanship because IMHO it only shows up too clearly the exact criticisms many people have about the Christian Church and the Bible, because of the arguments exhibited here of differences in interpretation and the attitude you show to others in having a different interpretation to your own. It is unbecoming.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:27:31 GMT
Revelation is an historic account. And a current one. And a future one. pardon me. solely historic. Pedancy really is your forte isn't it. Only when there is obvious confusion afoot.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:31:40 GMT
I'll quote scripture here, but it won't help you much if you haven't read the entire Bible and if you don't understand the entire Bible, because there are dozens and dozens of passages that build to this conclusion. But here is the scripture that most directly answers your question: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Arrogance alert*** You are talking to a fellow Christian and acknowledged student of the Bible here. Your arrogance is astounding! To be fair you may not know, being a newish poster that he was married to a minister of religion and takes his faith and the philosophies of religious thought very seriously. ALSO, it does the Christian religion no credit, in the middle of a thread about black people and slavery and Christianity, for it to devolved into a 'Chapter and Verse' contest in oneupmanship because IMHO it only shows up too clearly the exact criticisms many people have about the Christian Church and the Bible, because of the arguments exhibited here of differences in interpretation and the attitude you show to others in having a different interpretation to your own. It is unbecoming. This is mostly why I do not discuss what I believe here too deeply, I have spent a large part of my life reading what I have read, and to summarize it in one or two sentences belittles the complexity of what I understand. I have in the last few days been accused of being a wishy washy liberal new age Christian, I think that is the issue with talking with people who do not understand. This is why I suggested that I might one day explain what I believed over a beer. Hell I explained the base idea of the trinity a little while ago, and was rebuked, but when I asked why my stance was improbable I got no response. This saddens me as it makes this a place of judgement and competition as opposed to a place where discussions take place.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:32:02 GMT
pardon me. solely historic. Pedancy really is your forte isn't it. Only when there is obvious confusion afoot. The only confusion is yours.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:36:30 GMT
I'll quote scripture here, but it won't help you much if you haven't read the entire Bible and if you don't understand the entire Bible, because there are dozens and dozens of passages that build to this conclusion. But here is the scripture that most directly answers your question: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Arrogance alert*** It's not arrogance this time, Goz. The Bible unfolds for thousands of pages and over thousands of years. The plan evolves within it's context. In order to understand point Z, one must understand points A through Y. I don't care what Gadreel does for a living or what his spouse does for a livng. Gadreel has not proven that competence with me. So when he asks me to quote chapter and verse for a complicated idea like how God has sanctioned different paths for believers to follow based on what period of time those believers actually lived, I'm already a skeptic. Because anybody who truly understands the dynamic involved knows that it can't be framed by one chapter or even one book. It takes a holistic approach to scripture to understand why God stops dealing with the Church in the future and starts dealing explicitly with the Jews again. One needs to fully understand ages, covenants, prophecies, timelines and, most importantly, the varied and various reasons behind why the evolution occurs in the first place. The very fact that he would even question it led me to believe that quoting one section of scripture would not be convincing to him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:37:56 GMT
Only when there is obvious confusion afoot. The only confusion is yours. But I'm not confused. You're the one asking questions. I'm the one actually giving answers. If you have any biblical evidence that contradicts my assertions, by all means, quote them here.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:38:25 GMT
It's not arrogance this time, Goz. The Bible unfolds for thousands of pages and over thousands of years. The plan evolves within it's context. In order to understand point Z, one must understand points A through Y. I don't care what Gadreel does for a living or what his spouse does for a livng. Gadreel has not proven that competence with me. So when he asks me to quote chapter and verse for a complicated idea like how God has sanctioned different paths for believers to follow based on what period of time those believers actually lived, I'm already a skeptic. Because anybody who truly understands the dynamic involved knows that it can't be framed by one chapter or even one book. It takes a holistic approach to scripture to understand why God stops dealing with the Church in the future and starts dealing explicitly with the Jews again. One needs to fully understand ages, covenants, prophecies, timelines and, most importantly, the varied and various reasons behind why the evolution occurs in the first place. The very fact that he would even question it led me to believe that quoting one section of scripture would not be convincing to him. Hold on, have you just presented you argument as "he has to read heaps and heaps of stuff to understand" while just a minute ago you asked me to summarize what I presented in one sentence? wow, you are quickly losing cred buddy.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 22:39:45 GMT
The only confusion is yours. But I'm not confused. You're the one asking questions. I'm the one actually giving answers. If you have any biblical evidence that contradicts my assertions, by all means, quote them here. I clearly defined historical as opposed to prophecy, in your pedantry and your explanation you revealed your confusion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 22:43:38 GMT
It's not arrogance this time, Goz. The Bible unfolds for thousands of pages and over thousands of years. The plan evolves within it's context. In order to understand point Z, one must understand points A through Y. I don't care what Gadreel does for a living or what his spouse does for a livng. Gadreel has not proven that competence with me. So when he asks me to quote chapter and verse for a complicated idea like how God has sanctioned different paths for believers to follow based on what period of time those believers actually lived, I'm already a skeptic. Because anybody who truly understands the dynamic involved knows that it can't be framed by one chapter or even one book. It takes a holistic approach to scripture to understand why God stops dealing with the Church in the future and starts dealing explicitly with the Jews again. One needs to fully understand ages, covenants, prophecies, timelines and, most importantly, the varied and various reasons behind why the evolution occurs in the first place. The very fact that he would even question it led me to believe that quoting one section of scripture would not be convincing to him. Hold on, have you just presented you argument as "he has to read heaps and heaps of stuff to understand" while just a minute ago you asked me to summarize what I presented in one sentence? wow, you are quickly losing cred buddy. Yeah, be honest: in all the questions you've asked me, have I ever not given you my own response? When have I ever linked to a page-long blog and asked you to read someone else's opinion on the matter? If you want to argue some point that I've made (which you seem to really like doing even though it isn't reciprocal), then make your argument. Don't ask me to read some page-long thing you didn't even write. Give me Gadreel or give me death.
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