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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 17:03:17 GMT
To be fair your opinion is obvious, the answer is no, you do not think the bible is open to interpretation, but since you know what kind of an untenable position that puts you in you are avoiding actually saying it. You still sadden me. I'm glad you admit to playing games for post count. Anyway...Why would it put me in any position at all? I was actually interested in a conversation around your beliefs regarding interpretation of the bible, but clearly you are too embarrassed of your own opinion to have an honest discussion about it. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 17:04:24 GMT
How can that be if they have never heard of him? But they had heard of him. From the moment of Adam and Eve's "fall from grace" moment in Eden, God prophesied about the coming Messiah. It was faith in this coming Messiah that will save those who came before Jesus. The OT is chock full of examples of this. The OT may well be but that is hardly available to a chinese person in the 10th century? What happens to these people that have never heard of Jesus? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 17:12:30 GMT
I'm glad you admit to playing games for post count. Anyway...Why would it put me in any position at all? I was actually interested in a conversation around your beliefs regarding interpretation of the bible, but clearly you are too embarrassed of your own opinion to have an honest discussion about it. I rarely discuss my personal beliefs. There's more than enough info in the Bible to stick with just discussing that and it can be discussed as fiction to make the atheists happy. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 17:13:14 GMT
But they had heard of him. From the moment of Adam and Eve's "fall from grace" moment in Eden, God prophesied about the coming Messiah. It was faith in this coming Messiah that will save those who came before Jesus. The OT is chock full of examples of this. The OT may well be but that is hardly available to a chinese person in the 10th century? What happens to these people that have never heard of Jesus? Who am I to say what people have heard or not heard? No one can establish that one way or another. It's just a parlor trick of the unfaithful. The OT is pretty clear: faith in a coming Messiah is what saved people living in OT times. It's cut and dry. If you didn't have the faith - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. EDIT: the same can be said for people living after the time of Christ. It's cut and dry. If you don't have faith in Christ - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 17:38:32 GMT
I was actually interested in a conversation around your beliefs regarding interpretation of the bible, but clearly you are too embarrassed of your own opinion to have an honest discussion about it. I rarely discuss my personal beliefs. There's more than enough info in the Bible to stick with just discussing that and it can be discussed as fiction to make the atheists happy. That really saddens me, honestly, I mean I can read the bible and many other Christian texts,but finding an individuals views and trying to understand them is much more rewarding. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 17:40:24 GMT
The OT may well be but that is hardly available to a chinese person in the 10th century? What happens to these people that have never heard of Jesus? Who am I to say what people have heard or not heard? No one can establish that one way or another. It's just a parlor trick of the unfaithful. The OT is pretty clear: faith in a coming Messiah is what saved people living in OT times. It's cut and dry. If you didn't have the faith - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. EDIT: the same can be said for people living after the time of Christ. It's cut and dry. If you don't have faith in Christ - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 17:40:32 GMT
I rarely discuss my personal beliefs. There's more than enough info in the Bible to stick with just discussing that and it can be discussed as fiction to make the atheists happy. That really saddens me, honestly, I mean I can read the bible and many other Christian texts,but finding an individuals views and trying to understand them is much more rewarding. If you can't read something and get the point of it, then there's no reason to read it. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 17:45:36 GMT
That really saddens me, honestly, I mean I can read the bible and many other Christian texts,but finding an individuals views and trying to understand them is much more rewarding. If you can't read something and get the point of it, then there's no reason to read it. How ironic, you read what I posted and completely failed to get the point of it. |
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Post by kls on Feb 22, 2018 17:45:43 GMT
Who am I to say what people have heard or not heard? No one can establish that one way or another. It's just a parlor trick of the unfaithful. The OT is pretty clear: faith in a coming Messiah is what saved people living in OT times. It's cut and dry. If you didn't have the faith - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. EDIT: the same can be said for people living after the time of Christ. It's cut and dry. If you don't have faith in Christ - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? I don't believe that not being saved equals being tormented in Hell. Being saved is eternal life with God. Not being saved (but not due to personal guilt) could just equal the end of earthly life being it. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 17:49:51 GMT
If you can't read something and get the point of it, then there's no reason to read it. How ironic, you read what I posted and completely failed to get the point of it. You ain't exactly bible level of interesting, but you are correct that I never understand your point except to continue one when there is no need to. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 17:58:30 GMT
Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? I don't believe that not being saved equals being tormented in Hell. Being saved is eternal life with God. Not being saved (but not due to personal guilt) could just equal the end of earthly life being it. That is an interesting view. To be clear you are saying (in this view) those that are saved go to heaven those that are not just die right? That begs the question of the soul, do some souls just dissipate? Are those that are not going to get to heaven ( I am guessing here that God will know in advance if he it omniscient and out of time, but you may have a different view of God) never given a soul? Is there a hell in this view at all? |
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Post by kls on Feb 22, 2018 18:00:29 GMT
I don't believe that not being saved equals being tormented in Hell. Being saved is eternal life with God. Not being saved (but not due to personal guilt) could just equal the end of earthly life being it. That is an interesting view. To be clear you are saying (in this view) those that are saved go to heaven those that are not just die right? That begs the question of the soul, do some souls just dissipate? Are those that are not going to get to heaven ( I am guessing here that God will know in advance if he it omniscient and out of time, but you may have a different view of God) never given a soul? Is there a hell in this view at all? There could be a Hell for those who deserve punishment for their deeds. Never thought about the soul issue. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 18:11:40 GMT
That is an interesting view. To be clear you are saying (in this view) those that are saved go to heaven those that are not just die right? That begs the question of the soul, do some souls just dissipate? Are those that are not going to get to heaven ( I am guessing here that God will know in advance if he it omniscient and out of time, but you may have a different view of God) never given a soul? Is there a hell in this view at all? There could be a Hell for those who deserve punishment for their deeds. Never thought about the soul issue. ok wow, So there is a hell and a heaven, those that are saved get to go to heaven, those that need punishment go to hell, everyone else just ends. hmm, not sure I can parse that theologically. If I hold that God is benevolent (which I do), then that means that there is a (presumably) majority of people who will either be ignored or punished by God for all eternity (although I suppose the 'dead' ones never experience it) based on a 70-90 year test. It's an odd one, I am not sure how to reconcile it. I mean I would expect that punishment if it exists would not be eternal I can only presume that God wants us all to rejoin him eventually so would alllow for that in the plan, but you view seems to negate that. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 18:24:26 GMT
Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? I don't believe that not being saved equals being tormented in Hell. Being saved is eternal life with God. Not being saved (but not due to personal guilt) could just equal the end of earthly life being it. God would totally suck if he tortured people for all eternity...Or even a few days. There is no point to it when death is there as an option and more than fair. |
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 22, 2018 18:41:24 GMT
tpfkar God would totally suck if he tortured people for all eternity...Or even a few days. There is no point to it when death is there as an option and more than fair. Sure, make them all wither and rot and then die, at 10x times the original rate strictly as "punishment" in a fit of pique, unless they take a deal they can't refuse and likely don't even know about. Much more than fair! 
The destruction of the wicked is literal and as a collective they make up the heavens and the earth that people think don't change. |
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Post by kls on Feb 22, 2018 18:46:23 GMT
tpfkar God would totally suck if he tortured people for all eternity...Or even a few days. There is no point to it when death is there as an option and more than fair. Sure, make them all wither and rot and then die, at 10x times the original rate strictly as "punishment" in a fit of pique, unless they take a deal they can't refuse and likely don't even know about. Much more than fair!
The destruction of the wicked is literal and as a collective they make up the heavens and the earth that people think don't change.At 10X the original rate? |
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 22, 2018 18:52:59 GMT
tpfkar Sure, make them all wither and rot and then die, at 10x times the original rate strictly as "punishment" in a fit of pique, unless they take a deal they can't refuse and likely don't even know about. Much more than fair!
The destruction of the wicked is literal and as a collective they make up the heavens and the earth that people think don't change.At 10X the original rate? Peeps used to live like 1000 years, man. Before that, maybe 4EVAR.
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 19:18:30 GMT
Who am I to say what people have heard or not heard? No one can establish that one way or another. It's just a parlor trick of the unfaithful. The OT is pretty clear: faith in a coming Messiah is what saved people living in OT times. It's cut and dry. If you didn't have the faith - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. EDIT: the same can be said for people living after the time of Christ. It's cut and dry. If you don't have faith in Christ - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? Who are you to say what people have or haven't heard? |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 19:27:05 GMT
Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? Who are you to say what people have or haven't heard? A man living in 3rd century China has not heard of Jesus. You must be aware of this. It is a matter of logical fact that a large proportion of the members of the human race will not have been exposed to Christianity, what is God's plan for them if they cannot be saved according to the theology you espouse? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 19:27:55 GMT
tpfkar Sure, make them all wither and rot and then die, at 10x times the original rate strictly as "punishment" in a fit of pique, unless they take a deal they can't refuse and likely don't even know about. Much more than fair!
The destruction of the wicked is literal and as a collective they make up the heavens and the earth that people think don't change.At 10X the original rate? To ask him what he means is to get a new statement of goofiness. |
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