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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 19:28:23 GMT
Which means that a whole swathe of people who could not ever heard of Christ were created by God to be tormented in hell because they could not be saved by believing in Jesus. How does that reconcile the a benevolent God? Unless you do not think benevolence is trait of God? Who are you to say what people have or haven't heard? argh |
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 22, 2018 19:33:20 GMT
tpfkar At 10X the original rate? To ask him what he means is to get a new statement of goofiness. All you really have is the punt. 
The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 20:03:48 GMT
Who are you to say what people have or haven't heard? A man living in 3rd century China has not heard of Jesus. You must be aware of this. I'm aware of the Yi Vessel featuring a depiction of the "Feeding of the 5,000" dated 86 AD and the other evidence that Christianity spread to China in the 1st century. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 20:11:00 GMT
A man living in 3rd century China has not heard of Jesus. You must be aware of this. I'm aware of the Yi Vessel featuring a depiction of the "Feeding of the 5,000" dated 86 AD and the other evidence that Christianity spread to China in the 1st century. Nice way to dodge the point. Aside from spurious unsupported claims, Christianity did not reach China until the 7th century. But you are of course missing the point, for your theology to hold true, everyone throughout time must have been exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, you are aware that is not possible right? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 20:20:53 GMT
I'm aware of the Yi Vessel featuring a depiction of the "Feeding of the 5,000" dated 86 AD and the other evidence that Christianity spread to China in the 1st century. Nice way to dodge the point. Aside from spurious unsupported claims, Christianity did not reach China until the 7th century. But you are of course missing the point, for your theology to hold true, everyone throughout time must have been exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, you are aware that is not possible right? I honestly can't say that. It would be impossible to calculate something like that. I'm not dodging anything. You made an erroneous point and so I provided contrary evidence. it's as I said, "who are you to say who has or hasn't heard something?" Because you couldn't even get your first example right. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 20:26:27 GMT
Nice way to dodge the point. Aside from spurious unsupported claims, Christianity did not reach China until the 7th century. But you are of course missing the point, for your theology to hold true, everyone throughout time must have been exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, you are aware that is not possible right? I honestly can't say that. It would be impossible to calculate something like that. I'm not dodging anything. You made an erroneous point and so I provided contrary evidence. it's as I said, "who are you to say who has or hasn't heard something?" Because you couldn't even get your first example right. No it would be impossible for everyone in the history of humanity to be exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, your theology requires that they are, so either your theology is bad, or God created some people who never had the chance to be saved. Oh and my first example is correct, I challenge you to provide evidence that 1st century China was exposed to Christianity. I must stress, evidence, please don't make an unsubstantiated claim. link me to actual evidence to support your extraordinary claim. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 20:29:30 GMT
I honestly can't say that. It would be impossible to calculate something like that. I'm not dodging anything. You made an erroneous point and so I provided contrary evidence. it's as I said, "who are you to say who has or hasn't heard something?" Because you couldn't even get your first example right. No it would be impossible for everyone in the history of humanity to be exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, your theology requires that they are, so either your theology is bad, or God created some people who never had the chance to be saved. It's interesting you use the word impossible, considering you have acknowledged that I believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being. Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus, Gadreel? Do you trust the Gospels as being true? I don't understand. Are you claiming the Yi Vessel isn't evidence? |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 20:37:57 GMT
No it would be impossible for everyone in the history of humanity to be exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, your theology requires that they are, so either your theology is bad, or God created some people who never had the chance to be saved. It's interesting you use the word impossible, considering you have acknowledged that I believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being. Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus, Gadreel? Do you trust the Gospels as being true? I don't understand. Are you claiming the Yi Vessel isn't evidence? I believe that a person called Jesus existed and that the Gospels are an account of his life, that does nothing to suggest that a person in 1st century China was exposed to Christianity. The Yi Vessel is not something I have heard of until now, you will need to link to something that supports the claim that this vessel shows Christianity reached 1st century China, all the evidence I can find suggests China was not exposed to Christianity until the 7th century. |
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Post by Isapop on Feb 22, 2018 20:42:25 GMT
I'm aware of the Yi Vessel featuring a depiction of the "Feeding of the 5,000" dated 86 AD and the other evidence that Christianity spread to China in the 1st century. Nice way to dodge the point. Aside from spurious unsupported claims, Christianity did not reach China until the 7th century. But you are of course missing the point, for your theology to hold true, everyone throughout time must have been exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, you are aware that is not possible right? There are Christians capable of answering your question about those who died never having heard about Jesus. Here's one (the gist is that they'll be resurrected, given a crash course in the Gospel, and then they can make their choice). www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/for-people-who-never-heard-about-jesus-what-happens (Certainly Winterside is dodging. You could make your same point by citing someone in North America for over a millennium, and he'd have no YI vessels to talk about.)
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 20:47:07 GMT
No it would be impossible for everyone in the history of humanity to be exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, your theology requires that they are, so either your theology is bad, or God created some people who never had the chance to be saved. It's interesting you use the word impossible, considering you have acknowledged that I believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being. Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus, Gadreel? Do you trust the Gospels as being true? I don't understand. Are you claiming the Yi Vessel isn't evidence? That Yi Vessel story would make an awesome Bible epic a la Ben Hur. There's a lot of untapped story there. Special cameo of Jesus. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 22, 2018 20:50:17 GMT
Nice way to dodge the point. Aside from spurious unsupported claims, Christianity did not reach China until the 7th century. But you are of course missing the point, for your theology to hold true, everyone throughout time must have been exposed to the Judaeo-Christian stream, you are aware that is not possible right? There are Christians capable of answering your question about those who died never having heard about Jesus. Here's one (the gist is that they'll be resurrected, given a crash course in the Gospel, and then they can make their choice). www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-questions-and-answers/for-people-who-never-heard-about-jesus-what-happens (Certainly Winterside is dodging. You could make your same point by citing someone in North America for over a millennium, and he'd have no YI vessels to talk about.)
I have heard that theory, and it seems like a strange way to go about it, surely an omnipotent god would seed his ideas among the various peoples of the earth in ways that made sense to them throughout time, as opposed to once in an obscure town and then find a way to shoehorn everyone in at some point in the future. The Yi vessel thing is interesting, but also seems pretty spurious on cursory investigation. |
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Post by kls on Feb 22, 2018 20:53:56 GMT
I have heard that theory, and it seems like a strange way to go about it, surely an omnipotent god would seed his ideas among the various peoples of the earth in ways that made sense to them throughout time, as opposed to once in an obscure town and then find a way to shoehorn everyone in at some point in the future. The Yi vessel thing is interesting, but also seems pretty spurious on cursory investigation. That makes me think of Judas's question to Jesus in the musical Jesus Christ Superstar "Why'd you choose such a backwards time in such a strange land? If you came today you could have reached the whole nation. Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication." |
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Post by Isapop on Feb 22, 2018 20:56:07 GMT
I have heard that theory, and it seems like a strange way to go about it, surely an omnipotent god would seed his ideas among the various peoples of the earth in ways that made sense to them throughout time, as opposed to once in an obscure town and then find a way to shoehorn everyone in at some point in the future. That's one reason why Christians should always have handy the phrase, "God works in mysterious ways". |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 20:56:19 GMT
It's interesting you use the word impossible, considering you have acknowledged that I believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being. Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus, Gadreel? Do you trust the Gospels as being true? I don't understand. Are you claiming the Yi Vessel isn't evidence? I believe that a person called Jesus existed and that the Gospels are an account of his life, that does nothing to suggest that a person in 1st century China was exposed to Christianity. Are the Gospels 100% true? Fair enough. This is a picture of the Yi Vessel I am speaking about:  Here's a link: stmaryprotectress.blogspot.com/2009/05/stone-cold-evidence-for-syriac.html |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 21:02:45 GMT
It's interesting you use the word impossible, considering you have acknowledged that I believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being. Do you believe in the Biblical Jesus, Gadreel? Do you trust the Gospels as being true? I don't understand. Are you claiming the Yi Vessel isn't evidence? That Yi Vessel story would make an awesome Bible epic a la Ben Hur. There's a lot of untapped story there. Special cameo of Jesus. I'm not sure you what mean, but I'd be interested in seeing a film about Thomas' possible trip to China. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 21:08:25 GMT
I have heard that theory, and it seems like a strange way to go about it, surely an omnipotent god would seed his ideas among the various peoples of the earth in ways that made sense to them throughout time, as opposed to once in an obscure town and then find a way to shoehorn everyone in at some point in the future. The Yi vessel thing is interesting, but also seems pretty spurious on cursory investigation. It makes a whole lot more sense to provide grace for the ignorant than it would to inspire them to believe the wrong thing. They literally say in the Bible that Jesus is a propitiatory sacrifice meaning it does indeed cover everyone across all times who wants to be covered and ho aren't specifically excluded. This doesn't mean that they get to stay ignorant, only that they are given the opportunity to become smart in contrast to the wicked. |
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Post by goz on Feb 22, 2018 21:09:13 GMT
not sure I am parsing your sentence, are you saying there is no interpretation of the bible? On the contrary, I'm saying it's at least as easy to read as any other classical literature. Then why do Christians often read so much more into it than other classical literature? |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 22, 2018 21:09:45 GMT
That Yi Vessel story would make an awesome Bible epic a la Ben Hur. There's a lot of untapped story there. Special cameo of Jesus. I'm not sure you what mean, but I'd be interested in seeing a film about Thomas' possible trip to China. How did he get to China? Chariot of fire? But that's what I'm talking about. The effects would be amazing. I just hope they find a good writer... |
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Post by goz on Feb 22, 2018 21:13:18 GMT
The OT may well be but that is hardly available to a chinese person in the 10th century? What happens to these people that have never heard of Jesus? Who am I to say what people have heard or not heard? No one can establish that one way or another. It's just a parlor trick of the unfaithful. The OT is pretty clear: faith in a coming Messiah is what saved people living in OT times. It's cut and dry. If you didn't have the faith - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. EDIT: the same can be said for people living after the time of Christ. It's cut and dry. If you don't have faith in Christ - regardless of your excuse - you will not be saved. 'Hot damn'!  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 21:14:40 GMT
I'm not sure you what mean, but I'd be interested in seeing a film about Thomas' possible trip to China. How did he get to China? Chariot of fire? But that's what I'm talking about. The effects would be amazing. I just hope they find a good writer... Same way he got to India. |
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