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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 22:45:51 GMT
Which was a good thing. The Bible never should have been used to justify what the slave owners were doing. But it was, it is a sad fact in the history of Christianity that the bible has been used to justify many horrible things. As Christians we need to be aware of that so that we can avoid repeating history. I gotta be honest with you: I don't think there's must time left on the clock for "Christianity" anyway. But sure, I'm aware and my children will be aware. |
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Post by goz on Feb 20, 2018 22:49:52 GMT
I don’t think you realize just how self defeating your argument actually is. If Amazon sold portraits of Barack Obama that looked like this:  ...do you think someone justifying having one hanging in their living room using the logic “it doesn’t matter what he looked like, what matters is he gave us Obamacare” would justify the physical misrepresentation of him? (Politics aside: I’m not asking, and I don’t care whether you like Obama/Obamacare or hate Obama/Obamacare, I’m just using that as an example). I appreciate the comparison and I really appreciate the Photoshop. But c'mon...apples and oranges, man. I've been in many a black household with black Jesus hanging on the wall. It never offended me. Jesus is a little bit different than most religious icons in the sense that He is the " personal savior." If anyone should be up in arms about the Hebrew Jesus not looking Hebrew, it should be Hebrews. Nobody in my family cares, though. Ha, in fact, many of them have white Jesus on their walls. The Black Madonna is nice en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna_of_CzęstochowaI have seen it in Poland and many Polish families have a copy on their walls. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 22:54:14 GMT
I appreciate the comparison and I really appreciate the Photoshop. But c'mon...apples and oranges, man. I've been in many a black household with black Jesus hanging on the wall. It never offended me. Jesus is a little bit different than most religious icons in the sense that He is the " personal savior." If anyone should be up in arms about the Hebrew Jesus not looking Hebrew, it should be Hebrews. Nobody in my family cares, though. Ha, in fact, many of them have white Jesus on their walls. The Black Madonna is nice en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna_of_CzęstochowaI have seen it in Poland and many Polish families have a copy on their walls. Yeah, I mean, what do I care if people want to visualize Mary or Jesus as black or white? I'm just happy they're considering Jesus in the first place. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Feb 20, 2018 22:58:39 GMT
But is the sun going up and down a belief though? The actual act of the sun going up and down is a combination of physical laws and the layout of the universe, I do however hold a (possibly erroneous) belief that the sun will come up tomorrow. As it always does. One could call it a mass conscious belief, because it's something that most, if not all, would agree on. So then perhaps it could be a subconscious belief, because most wouldn't even actively think about it. I suppose it's something that gets taken for granted. However, conscious or subconscious belief, due to the nature and law of universe and something that is just a known fact, I wouldn't even put into the realm of belief, not in the sense of our being and purpose here. While our minds are all mighty and powerful and ultimately is the instigator of what we create in our lives, it's the stream of language and words that turn into what we see as thoughts, that holds us back from seeing beyond the ego mindset. They exist only as an illusion and create what we perceive as reality. It is in fact ALL illusion. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 20, 2018 22:59:09 GMT
But it was, it is a sad fact in the history of Christianity that the bible has been used to justify many horrible things. As Christians we need to be aware of that so that we can avoid repeating history. I gotta be honest with you: I don't think there's must time left on the clock for "Christianity" anyway. But sure, I'm aware and my children will be aware. Really? You think Christianity will go away? Why and what do you think will replace it? |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 20, 2018 23:00:12 GMT
The actual act of the sun going up and down is a combination of physical laws and the layout of the universe, I do however hold a (possibly erroneous) belief that the sun will come up tomorrow. As it always does. One could call it a mass conscious belief, because it's something that most, if not all, would agree on. So then perhaps it could be a subconscious belief, because most wouldn't even actively think about it. I suppose it's something that gets taken for granted. However, conscious or subconscious belief, due to the nature and law of universe and something that is just a known fact, I wouldn't even put into the realm of belief, not in the sense of our being and purpose here. While our minds are all mighty and powerful and ultimately is the instigator of what we create in our lives, it's the stream of language and words that turn into what we see as thoughts, that holds us back from seeing beyond the ego mindset. They exist only as an illusion and create what we perceive as reality. It is in fact ALL illusion. But the sun may not come up tomorrow, so it is a belief. Does this mean not all beliefs are delusional? |
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Post by captainbryce on Feb 20, 2018 23:02:10 GMT
I'm just pointing out that you seem to attribute everything to white folks when almost every single ethnicity on the planet has owned slaves at some point. If you want to call that moving the goal post, that's cool, but it seems to me that viewing things through a racial lens is important to you in this thread, so I just want to make sure you realize everyone is on an even playing field. Well first of all, it probably just SEEMS that way to you because you don’t actually know anything about me, and are relying on a bunch of assumptions based on one conversation. You didn’t even know I was black until about four posts ago! Now that you know, all of a sudden I am attributing EVERYTHING to “white folks”. So I think the problem is more of your misguided interpretation than anything truly representative of me. Secondly, the discussion (both the opening question and the subsequent tangent) has to do with why black people (Americans) would continue to embrace a religion that they were indoctrinated into knowing that it was originally forced onto their ancestors as a way of justifying their enslavement. Which other nations/races owned slaves in the past is completely irrelevant to that question and serves only as a red-herring. Because my question isn’t dependent on the idea that ONLY white Americans ever owned black people as slaves. Third, the idea that everyone is playing on the same playing field now is demonstrably false and only shows an ignorance about the socio-economic divide between the African American community and white Americans. From the institutionalized slavery that much of this country was founded on, to the Jim Crow era laws and segregation, to the civil rights movement, to modern day income inequality, employment bias, biased standardized tests, racial profiling, police brutality and systematic racism embedded in the criminal justice system today, black Americans have NEVER been on an “even playing field” with white Americans. That’s simply not a thing, nor has it ever been! That is a fantasy that we all (well most of us anyway) aspire to actually have one day. But we've never actually had that in reality. As Chris Rock famously said: “There ain’t a white man in the audience who would trade places with me; and I’m rich! That’s how good it is to be white.” |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 20, 2018 23:08:46 GMT
Which has nothing to do with my political views or my concern for what other people do. But that was the point. Ones political views, do have much to do with ones religious values and moral compass. That point has already been made, and goz has made it too. Religion beliefs reflect in politics. Many Christians can believe— and I get this from your posts too—that the state the world is in, is due to people not upholding Christian values or believing in Christ the savior, and those that are "non-religious", see that perhaps the world is in the state it is, due to religious values. So which is it then? I think you are concerned about what is going on in the world and that is understandable, and most people are. The paradox is, much of it IS due to religion. except that it doesn't. There are plenty of people who live a Christian life and vote secularly and especially when there are just 2 parties to choose from. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 23:13:06 GMT
I'm just pointing out that you seem to attribute everything to white folks when almost every single ethnicity on the planet has owned slaves at some point. If you want to call that moving the goal post, that's cool, but it seems to me that viewing things through a racial lens is important to you in this thread, so I just want to make sure you realize everyone is on an even playing field. Well first of all, it probably just SEEMS that way to you because you don’t actually know anything about me, and are relying on a bunch of assumptions based on one conversation. You didn’t even know I was black until about four posts ago! Now that you know, all of a sudden I am attributing EVERYTHING to “white folks”. So I think the problem is more of your misguided interpretation than anything truly representative of me. Secondly, the discussion (both the opening question and the subsequent tangent) has to do with why black people (Americans) would continue to embrace a religion that they were indoctrinated into knowing that it was originally forced onto their ancestors as a way of justifying their enslavement. Which other nations/races owned slaves in the past is completely irrelevant to that question and serves only as a red-herring. Because my question isn’t dependent on the idea that ONLY white Americans ever owned black people as slaves. Third, the idea that everyone is playing on the same playing field now is demonstrably false and only shows an ignorance about the socio-economic divide between the African American community and white Americans. From the institutionalized slavery that much of this country was founded on, to the Jim Crow era laws and segregation, to the civil rights movement, to modern day income inequality, employment bias, biased standardized tests, racial profiling, police brutality and systematic racism embedded in the criminal justice system today, black Americans have NEVER been on an “even playing field” with white Americans. That’s simply not a thing, nor has it ever been! That is a fantasy that we all (well most of us anyway) aspire to actually have one day. But we've never actually had that in reality. As Chris Rock famously said: “There ain’t a white man in the audience who would trade places with me; and I’m rich! That’s how good it is to be white.”I kind of feel like we're two ships passing in the night at this point. There seems to be a lot of misallocation of ideas here. For instance, you are attributing this sentence - Third, the idea that everyone is playing on the same playing field now is demonstrably false and only shows an ignorance about the socio-economic divide between the African American community and white Americans - to me as if I said it. I didn't. Not even close. Take it from a Hebrew: we've all been victims at some point (and by we've, I mean our ancestors because certainly you haven't lived a day of your life as anything but a freeman, lol). It does no good to whine about it. If you feel you've been cheated, the best thing to do is increase your wealth until you can increase your power and influence. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Feb 20, 2018 23:14:40 GMT
As it always does. One could call it a mass conscious belief, because it's something that most, if not all, would agree on. So then perhaps it could be a subconscious belief, because most wouldn't even actively think about it. I suppose it's something that gets taken for granted. However, conscious or subconscious belief, due to the nature and law of universe and something that is just a known fact, I wouldn't even put into the realm of belief, not in the sense of our being and purpose here. While our minds are all mighty and powerful and ultimately is the instigator of what we create in our lives, it's the stream of language and words that turn into what we see as thoughts, that holds us back from seeing beyond the ego mindset. They exist only as an illusion and create what we perceive as reality. It is in fact ALL illusion. But the sun may not come up tomorrow, so it is a belief. Does this mean not all beliefs are delusional? Does that make it a belief though if it doesn't? If it doesn't, does that then make the belief that sun WAS going to come up delusional? What if one holds no thought belief, or thinks about something or anything, that then takes it out of the realm of delusion and right into the moment, thought\thinking free. That is true freedom. |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Feb 20, 2018 23:20:58 GMT
But that was the point. Ones political views, do have much to do with ones religious values and moral compass. That point has already been made, and goz has made it too. Religion beliefs reflect in politics. Many Christians can believe— and I get this from your posts too—that the state the world is in, is due to people not upholding Christian values or believing in Christ the savior, and those that are "non-religious", see that perhaps the world is in the state it is, due to religious values. So which is it then? I think you are concerned about what is going on in the world and that is understandable, and most people are. The paradox is, much of it IS due to religion. except that it doesn't. There are plenty of people who live a Christian life and vote secularly and especially when there are just 2 parties to choose from. It doesn't what? Don't vote if you don't want to, but if that is all the choice you have, there is no choice but to accept that choice. Neither side is going to pander to what you feel or think they should do, due to your religious beliefs in what you think they should do. The points you are making, is still coming down to your religious notions about what you think should be happening. Some of it may be appropriate, some of it may be way off the mark, but you have to vote secularly, because NOT everyone is Christian, which is what you are alluding ALL should be. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 20, 2018 23:38:09 GMT
Toasted CheeseWhat does that mean in relation to what I said?Not true. I haven't even discussed my beliefs have I? If I did what did I say? How did they relate to politics? As a Christian, I'm just going to go ahead and forgive you! 
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Post by goz on Feb 20, 2018 23:49:12 GMT
Toasted Cheese What does that mean in relation to what I said?Not true. I haven't even discussed my beliefs have I? If I did what did I say? How did they relate to politics? As a Christian, I'm just going to go ahead and forgive you! and yet you were bemoaning all this: |
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Feb 21, 2018 0:00:17 GMT
Toasted Cheese What does that mean in relation to what I said?Not true. I haven't even discussed my beliefs have I? If I did what did I say? How did they relate to politics? As a Christian, I'm just going to go ahead and forgive you! You will just have to help yourself cool. You are not wanting to acknowledge, or play a mature part in a decent discussion. Like goz has said and pointed out, you have bemoaned your current political views on this post, due to your religious views, which are still all politics. They can be quoted back to you again if you like. There is also nothing to forgive me for, because I haven't said anything to you that begs or asks for your forgiveness, that is just your own deflection, denial and delusion. Also, is a Christian only capable of being forgiving? |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 0:18:10 GMT
But the sun may not come up tomorrow, so it is a belief. Does this mean not all beliefs are delusional? Does that make it a belief though if it doesn't? If it doesn't, does that then make the belief that sun WAS going to come up delusional? What if one holds no thought belief, or thinks about something or anything, that then takes it out of the realm of delusion and right into the moment, thought\thinking free. That is true freedom. So not all beliefs are delusional. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 0:19:16 GMT
Toasted Cheese What does that mean in relation to what I said?Not true. I haven't even discussed my beliefs have I? If I did what did I say? How did they relate to politics? As a Christian, I'm just going to go ahead and forgive you! You will just have to help yourself cool. You are not wanting to acknowledge, or play a mature part in a decent discussion. Like goz has said and pointed out, you have bemoaned your current political views on this post, due to your religious views, which are still all politics. They can be quoted back to you again if you like. There is also nothing to forgive me for, because I haven't said anything to you that begs or asks for your forgiveness, that is just your own deflection, denial and delusion. Also, is a Christian only capable of being forgiving? Yeah he played that high handed bullshit with me too when it turned out he was arguing about something he did not believe in. |
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 21, 2018 1:17:13 GMT
tpfkar The only logical reason is that a slave-owner was teaching them to be better slaves. That clearly backfired when slaves would almost immediately start identifying with the Israelite's plight. There really wasn't much a slave owner could actually teach them from the Bible that didn't inevitably lead them to the notion of being free or relying on God There's not a lot of Gospels out there thanking Master Whitey for keeping them safe on the cotton field and away from slavery.
I would say that God wouldn't care one way or another as long as they are treated fairly...which is why there is instruction on it to begin with. The fact is that a slave could be an overseer in the congregation his master goes to because Scripture makes pretty clear that everyone has equal rights within the church if not in society. |
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Post by gadreel on Feb 21, 2018 1:25:45 GMT
tpfkar The only logical reason is that a slave-owner was teaching them to be better slaves. That clearly backfired when slaves would almost immediately start identifying with the Israelite's plight. There really wasn't much a slave owner could actually teach them from the Bible that didn't inevitably lead them to the notion of being free or relying on God There's not a lot of Gospels out there thanking Master Whitey for keeping them safe on the cotton field and away from slavery.
I would say that God wouldn't care one way or another as long as they are treated fairly...which is why there is instruction on it to begin with. The fact is that a slave could be an overseer in the congregation his master goes to because Scripture makes pretty clear that everyone has equal rights within the church if not in society.Yes, that is what was hoped would be the lesson, but the journey out of bondage of the isrealites was the message taken to heart by the slaves. |
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 21, 2018 1:34:17 GMT
tpfkar Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
I would say that God wouldn't care one way or another as long as they are treated fairly...which is why there is instruction on it to begin with. The fact is that a slave could be an overseer in the congregation his master goes to because Scripture makes pretty clear that everyone has equal rights within the church if not in society. Yes, that is what was hoped would be the lesson, but the journey out of bondage of the isrealites was the message taken to heart by the slaves. Regardless, that was a lesson that the Bible taught. Still taken in some locales, at least according to the sig above. 
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. |
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Post by kls on Feb 21, 2018 2:04:21 GMT
The Bible most certainly does not endorse the kind of slavery that was American slavery.
Exodus 21:16
He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
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