bb15
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Post by bb15 on Feb 21, 2017 22:25:04 GMT
Whatever, Superman is dying and he say a name (which happened to be Bruce's mother's name). That stunned Batman. What was Superman talking about? Martha was dead (Bruce's mother). - Then Lois filled in the details, and Bruce realizes, Superman is not a robot, he's not a thing. Superman is a person with a mother who was raised on earth. This shattered Bruce's hate for Superman and then they could move forward. Made sense to me. Imo at least, BB ;-) You got it, but I think that's the point we're trying to make, the explanation is so stupid and surface level superficial, it has no place being in a movie or how real people would act. As if Batman was so dense he needed it spelled out in movie-terms. Like a parable for trying to teach empathy to a child, it falls flat on it's face as a big dramatic moment that contrives two random lazy pieces of comics trivia together; I always thought one of them should've been renamed in the first place, too many Marthas in the Dc universe lol. * I think I understand your point but do you understand mine? 😊 'Real people'? Real people can be irrational. * I think there is a huge split among Batman fans between the Saint Batman from Nolan 👼 and the gritty / twisted Batman from Burton. 😡 - Of course Nolan's Saint Batman would never try to kill Superman. Nolan's Batman is just a businessman who lives in town who takes his car out of a garage to help the police. 🕵 * But importantly other versions of Batman exist. - Burton's Batman is a disturbed vigilante who spends a lot of his time in a cave and when he's pissed off, he will kill people. - The counter argument to this is that the comic book Batman would never do that. That is wrong. 😵 For instance from All-Star Batman and Robin No. 7, 2007; www.cracked.com/article_20111_the-6-most-brutal-murders-committed-by-batman.html* i'm not asking you to like this kind of Batman. You can argue for the Saint Batman. But that would not be my point. - The emotionally disturbed / potential killer Batman exists in canon. 📖 - And that kind of twisted Batman (reacting to the events in Man of Steel) could decide to kill Superman as shown in BVS. * i'm not trying to change your mind. Of course you have the privilege to greatly dislike the Martha scene. But to me, with my understanding of what Batman can be, and how real people might act, it made sense. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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Post by Times Up on Feb 21, 2017 22:46:18 GMT
Jesus, yes, that was hilarious.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 22:49:22 GMT
I still liked it
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 7:39:12 GMT
I have to agree, it was a very stupid scene.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 10:49:34 GMT
There were howls of laughter in the theater at that moment. Those who weren't laughing had their faces in their palms.
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Post by Jesse Custer on Feb 22, 2017 11:20:55 GMT
Most idiotic scene ever. And Superman is a dumb creature. He became friend with Batman very quickly, after Bats tried to kill him. How can someone be so dumb? Supes should distrut him for this action. Thats why i prefer Civil War.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 15:34:48 GMT
At least civil war didn't have dumb playground twists
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bb15
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Post by bb15 on Feb 23, 2017 4:07:23 GMT
At least civil war didn't have dumb playground twists For my taste Iron Man getting beat by Captain America (and Bucky) was completely unbelievable. I have a much easier time with the Superman/Batman fight which only has a few minor flaws. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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barkingbaphomet
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Post by barkingbaphomet on Feb 23, 2017 12:38:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 13:20:42 GMT
Lots of Marvel fans here in this thread.
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Post by MooseNugget on Feb 23, 2017 16:57:36 GMT
Martha?
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Post by Times Up on Feb 23, 2017 17:02:12 GMT
Martha, hard body, JP Morgan?
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Post by gljbradley on Feb 23, 2017 21:37:52 GMT
Most idiotic scene ever. And Superman is a dumb creature. He became friend with Batman very quickly, after Bats tried to kill him. How can someone be so dumb? Supes should distrut him for this action. Thats why i prefer Civil War. I absolutely agree about Superman all of sudden becoming friends with somebody that has tried to kill him(and tried to kill him so many times, at that). Why the hell would you do that? As you said, logically, he should actually be extremely distrustful of Batman from now on because Batman had proven the lengths he went through to attempt to destroy him without actually seeing what he's truly about. I'm sorry. If I were Clark, my trust would be extremely limited and almost gone at this point.
It's bad enough that I have all of this pressure of saving people all over the world without the government breathing down on my neck, still mourning my father, feeling guilty about the disaster Zod, his cronies, and I have caused in Metropolis, and wondering if I'm even good enough despite my mother and girlfriend telling me otherwise. Now, I have someone I barely even know who hates my guts because of the destruction of Metropolis and thinking that it's entirely my fault for it. They spent a large amount of time scheming and trying to destroy or kill me in any manner. Even willingly allow a sociopathic rich geek to manipulate them into going after me full on while that same sociopathic rich geek kidnaps my mother for bait. Despite getting good shots in there, I ended up beaten me to a near pulp thanks to Kryptonite and a special mechanical suit, and is about to be killed. Until, I tell him to save my mother yet I call her by her first name to this person who's about to be my murderer. And what do you know. Come to find out, they're mother has the same name as well. They let me go and all of sudden starts acting nicer to me. And now they want to be my friend?! I don't give a damn if they did see the error of their ways. Excuse my French but, FUCK THAT SHIT!!!! You don't get a pass in my book. Once you've shown hostility and intent to harm me, there's is no way I would become any type of acquaintances with you. If anything, I'd want you stay the fuck away from me.
Also, in my personal opinion, Bruce has crossed over to the villain territory due to his actions in this film. Kind of like with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in Avengers: Age of Ultron, I don't give two shits if you turned over a new leaf. What you did was beyond evil and is basically unforgiveable. In both cases, these three individuals were driven by bitterness, selfishness, revenge, and intent to destroy. Then, they realized too late that their actions has killed people and ruined people's lives. Maybe I'm just being petty. But, this version of Batman as well as Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch from AOU will always be looked at as villains to me. No amount of good deeds(Civil War and Justice League) they do can erase the conflict and devastation they did.
As Harvey Dent out it in TDK, "Look, you either die a hero. Or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain". In Harvey's case, he already had the qualities of becoming a villain due to him not being able to control his rage and arrogance. Just like with Affleck's version of Batman had the qualities of becoming a villain due to childhood trauma of losing his parents tragically to which it turned him into a raving maniac who inflicted hurt upon other people(good or bad) and being highly prejudice to someone you think is evil(when the opposite is true).
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bb15
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Post by bb15 on Feb 25, 2017 4:17:21 GMT
Most idiotic scene ever. And Superman is a dumb creature. He became friend with Batman very quickly, after Bats tried to kill him. How can someone be so dumb? Supes should distrut him for this action. Thats why i prefer Civil War. I absolutely agree about Superman all of sudden becoming friends with somebody that has tried to kill him(and tried to kill him so many times, at that). Why the hell would you do that? As you said, logically, he should actually be extremely distrustful of Batman from now on because Batman had proven the lengths he went through to attempt to destroy him without actually seeing what he's truly about. I'm sorry. If I were Clark, my trust would be extremely limited and almost gone at this point.
It's bad enough that I have all of this pressure of saving people all over the world without the government breathing down on my neck, still mourning my father, feeling guilty about the disaster Zod, his cronies, and I have caused in Metropolis, and wondering if I'm even good enough despite my mother and girlfriend telling me otherwise. Now, I have someone I barely even know who hates my guts because of the destruction of Metropolis and thinking that it's entirely my fault for it. They spent a large amount of time scheming and trying to destroy or kill me in any manner. Even willingly allow a sociopathic rich geek to manipulate them into going after me full on while that same sociopathic rich geek kidnaps my mother for bait. Despite getting good shots in there, I ended up beaten me to a near pulp thanks to Kryptonite and a special mechanical suit, and is about to be killed. Until, I tell him to save my mother yet I call her by her first name to this person who's about to be my murderer. And what do you know. Come to find out, they're mother has the same name as well. They let me go and all of sudden starts acting nicer to me. And now they want to be my friend?! I don't give a damn if they did see the error of their ways. Excuse my French but, FUCK THAT SHIT!!!! You don't get a pass in my book. Once you've shown hostility and intent to harm me, there's is no way I would become any type of acquaintances with you. If anything, I'd want you stay the fuck away from me.
Also, in my personal opinion, Bruce has crossed over to the villain territory due to his actions in this film. Kind of like with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch in Avengers: Age of Ultron, I don't give two shits if you turned over a new leaf. What you did was beyond evil and is basically unforgiveable. In both cases, these three individuals were driven by bitterness, selfishness, revenge, and intent to destroy. Then, they realized too late that their actions has killed people and ruined people's lives. Maybe I'm just being petty. But, this version of Batman as well as Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch from AOU will always be looked at as villains to me. No amount of good deeds(Civil War and Justice League) they do can erase the conflict and devastation they did.
As Harvey Dent out it in TDK, "Look, you either die a hero. Or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain". In Harvey's case, he already had the qualities of becoming a villain due to him not being able to control his rage and arrogance. Just like with Affleck's version of Batman had the qualities of becoming a villain due to childhood trauma of losing his parents tragically to which it turned him into a raving maniac who inflicted hurt upon other people(good or bad) and being highly prejudice to someone you think is evil(when the opposite is true).
1. Batman telling Martha that he was Superman's friend was a mistake. But that is not part of the Martha scene. It's part of the rescue of Martha sequence. 2. Again, Superman saying Martha broke Batman's hate for Superman. It stunned Bruce. Then Lois explained who Superman was; that he had a human mother. And Bruce then realized that he was wrong. - Then after that, a decision needed to be made about Doomsday and Martha. Batman could not take on Doomsday. It made sense for Superman to handle that. And it also made sense that Batman could save Martha. 3. "As Harvey Dent out it in TDK, "Look, you either die a hero. Or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain" Batman going over the line to villain territory is not new. Viewers have the false impression that Nolan's Saint Batman is the only Batman. - Not true. Burton's Batman can be like Affleck Batman. And sometimes even Batman in the comics can go nuts with rage and kill. - For instance from All-Star Batman and Robin No. 7, 2007; www.cracked.com/article_20111_the-6-most-brutal-murders-committed-by-batman.html* i'm not asking anyone to like this kind of Batman. - My point is the emotionally disturbed / potential killer Batman exists in canon. - And that kind of twisted Batman (reacting to the events in Man of Steel) could decide to kill Superman as shown in BVS. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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Post by poelzig on Feb 25, 2017 4:35:14 GMT
Can we all agree that douchebag Jesse Eisenberg is mind numbingly annoying in the movie and his "Erm. Hmmm. Gosh. Burp. Uhh. Blurple." take on Lex Luthor is the worst comic book villain ever? Okay at least tied for worst with most every Marvel movie villain.
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bb15
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Post by bb15 on Feb 25, 2017 20:53:34 GMT
Can we all agree that douchebag Jesse Eisenberg is mind numbingly annoying in the movie and his "Erm. Hmmm. Gosh. Burp. Uhh. Blurple." take on Lex Luthor is the worst comic book villain ever? Okay at least tied for worst with most every Marvel movie villain. While I've defended BVS here and on IMDb, I agree that Jesse's Lex Luthor often did some annoying (sometimes high pitched) sounds. m.youtube.com/watch?v=0s5IFPrXeRISnyder should have stopped that or edited them out. Worst comic book movie villain? Several that are worse than Jesse's Lex come to mind (in random order, first Marvel then DC); - Ben Kingsley's Mandarin; great actor, terrible writing. - Whiplash (Iron Man 2) - Malekith (Thor 2: The Dark World) - Ronin (Guardians of the Galaxy) - Sandman (Spiderman 3) - Faye Dunaway's Selena (Supergirl); again, good actor, bad writing. - Arnold's Mr. Freeze (Batman and Robin) - Bane in Batman and Robin Imo at least, BB ;-)
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cryso
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Post by cryso on Feb 26, 2017 1:15:07 GMT
Martha scene is one of worst ever in films and was cheap thing to use just so plot could move on.
It is so stupid. Even if the film was good and had good emotion in it, Martha scene will still be stupid, because it is so cheap and insulting. It is just awful. The people who thought of it should be killed from films.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2017 9:13:22 GMT
Tell that to Hack Snyder
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ap
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Post by ap on Feb 26, 2017 11:00:53 GMT
I love that moment. Im here to defend it. Bruce doesn't hesitate to kill Superman because he says "Martha" and their parents share the same name. People have misinterpreted that scene almost embarrassingly misinterpreting that scene. Batmab hesitates because for the last few hours in this film he has said OVER and OVER Superman will kill everyone, he's a threat, he's not human, etc... It's in that moment he is realizing Superman has a mom just like he did, a woman who raised him. He isn't here to destroy humanity. He's making a connection, he's putting all the puzzle pieces together at that moment. Means if he was wrong about Superman this whole time, he's guilty. Everything Alfred has been telling him was right. Also, he's realizing Lex set all of this up, it's a flood of things going through his mind all at once, including his own mom. Actually, Bruce didn't realize Superman had a mother at that moment. He wanted to know why Supes said, "Martha." Lois Lane filled in the gaps--but at first, Bruce was just confused. And the script WAS rather odd at that point. Why would Superman say, "Martha. They're going to kill Martha." Shouldn't he say, "My mother. They're going to kill my mother?" Bruce knew Superman had a mother. He said something about his parents before attempting to stab him with the spear. Beyond that,... Superman is alive. It stands to reason he had both a mother and father, or if Batman assumed Krpytonians were asexual, a single parent of some sort. Knowing that Superman has a mother should not give Batman any sort of new perspective into his humanity. I'm sure he knows Joker has a mother somewhere. So do all the criminals he killed.
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bb15
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Post by bb15 on Feb 26, 2017 21:14:35 GMT
Actually, Bruce didn't realize Superman had a mother at that moment. He wanted to know why Supes said, "Martha." Lois Lane filled in the gaps--but at first, Bruce was just confused. And the script WAS rather odd at that point. Why would Superman say, "Martha. They're going to kill Martha." Shouldn't he say, "My mother. They're going to kill my mother?" Bruce knew Superman had a mother. He said something about his parents before attempting to stab him with the spear. Beyond that,... Superman is alive. It stands to reason he had both a mother and father, or if Batman assumed Krpytonians were asexual, a single parent of some sort. Knowing that Superman has a mother should not give Batman any sort of new perspective into his humanity. I'm sure he knows Joker has a mother somewhere. So do all the criminals he killed. You don't understand. 1. The parents that Batman spoke of ( "I bet your parents taught you that you were here for a reason") would be space alien parents. Batman / Bruce doesn't care about space alien parents. Bruce wants Superman dead at that point because he believes that Superman is a dangerous SPACE ALIEN. Simple as that. SPACE ALIEN PARENTS don't fix that. - The key line by Batman is this; "You were never a god. You were never even a MAN!"The main thing for Bruce at this point is that Superman is an alien, not human, not worth living, a potential monster that needs to be destroyed. - Understanding that is essential to seeing what the scene is about.2. The human Joker having a mother completely misses the point. For Batman the Joker needs to be defeated because of what the Joker DOES not because of what he IS when he was born. For Bruce at that point, Superman needed to be killed because of what he IS since he was born. A dangerous space alien. 3. What the Martha line did was freeze Batman/Bruce into stopping his killing of Superman. Then Lois brought in the information that Superman has a HUMAN mother. Get it. Human. Before that point Bruce/Batman thought that Superman was some dangerous alien monster that would wipe out humans on earth. Again, Lois humanizes Superman by telling Bruce that Superman has a human mother. Being more like a human is the key. Then Bruce's entire plan falls apart. His bigotry was exposed and he realized he was wrong. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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