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Post by bb15 on Feb 26, 2017 21:14:35 GMT
Actually, Bruce didn't realize Superman had a mother at that moment. He wanted to know why Supes said, "Martha." Lois Lane filled in the gaps--but at first, Bruce was just confused. And the script WAS rather odd at that point. Why would Superman say, "Martha. They're going to kill Martha." Shouldn't he say, "My mother. They're going to kill my mother?" Bruce knew Superman had a mother. He said something about his parents before attempting to stab him with the spear. Beyond that,... Superman is alive. It stands to reason he had both a mother and father, or if Batman assumed Krpytonians were asexual, a single parent of some sort. Knowing that Superman has a mother should not give Batman any sort of new perspective into his humanity. I'm sure he knows Joker has a mother somewhere. So do all the criminals he killed. You don't understand. 1. The parents that Batman spoke of ( "I bet your parents taught you that you were here for a reason") would be space alien parents. Batman / Bruce doesn't care about space alien parents. Bruce wants Superman dead at that point because he believes that Superman is a dangerous SPACE ALIEN. Simple as that. SPACE ALIEN PARENTS don't fix that. - The key line by Batman is this; "You were never a god. You were never even a MAN!"The main thing for Bruce at this point is that Superman is an alien, not human, not worth living, a potential monster that needs to be destroyed. - Understanding that is essential to seeing what the scene is about.2. The human Joker having a mother completely misses the point. For Batman the Joker needs to be defeated because of what the Joker DOES not because of what he IS when he was born. For Bruce at that point, Superman needed to be killed because of what he IS since he was born. A dangerous space alien. 3. What the Martha line did was freeze Batman/Bruce into stopping his killing of Superman. Then Lois brought in the information that Superman has a HUMAN mother. Get it. Human. Before that point Bruce/Batman thought that Superman was some dangerous alien monster that would wipe out humans on earth. Again, Lois humanizes Superman by telling Bruce that Superman has a human mother. Being more like a human is the key. Then Bruce's entire plan falls apart. His bigotry was exposed and he realized he was wrong. Imo at least, BB ;-) |
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Post by gljbradley on Feb 27, 2017 1:14:47 GMT
Bruce knew Superman had a mother. He said something about his parents before attempting to stab him with the spear. Beyond that,... Superman is alive. It stands to reason he had both a mother and father, or if Batman assumed Krpytonians were asexual, a single parent of some sort. Knowing that Superman has a mother should not give Batman any sort of new perspective into his humanity. I'm sure he knows Joker has a mother somewhere. So do all the criminals he killed. You don't understand. 1. The parents that Batman spoke of ( "I bet your parents taught you that you were here for a reason") would be space alien parents. Batman / Bruce doesn't care about space alien parents. Bruce wants Superman dead at that point because he believes that Superman is a dangerous SPACE ALIEN. Simple as that. SPACE ALIEN PARENTS don't fix that. - The key line by Batman is this; "You were never a god. You were never even a MAN!"The main thing for Bruce at this point is that Superman is an alien, not human, not worth living, a potential monster that needs to be destroyed. - Understanding that is essential to seeing what the scene is about.2. The human Joker having a mother completely misses the point. For Batman the Joker needs to be defeated because of what the Joker DOES not because of what he IS when he was born. For Bruce at that point, Superman needed to be killed because of what he IS since he was born. A dangerous space alien. 3. What the Martha line did was freeze Batman/Bruce into stopping his killing of Superman. Then Lois brought in the information that Superman has a HUMAN mother. Get it. Human. Before that point Bruce/Batman thought that Superman was some dangerous alien monster that would wipe out humans on earth. Again, Lois humanizes Superman by telling Bruce that Superman has a human mother. Being more like a human is the key. Then Bruce's entire plan falls apart. His bigotry was exposed and he realized he was wrong. Imo at least, BB ;-) Batman/Bruce was more than just wrong. He more or less forfeited his own humanity by his actions. |
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Post by ap on Feb 27, 2017 7:14:00 GMT
That makes Bruce out to be xenophobic just for the sake of being xenophobic. I can't even see him as a flawed hero at this point if he wanted to just kill any non-human who caused trouble. Why would it "freeze him"? Martha is a common name. Millions of people are named Martha, including some famous people such as Martha Washington or Martha Stewart. I could understand if he simply asked "Who's Martha?" with an appropriate level of curiosity, but he freaked out as if simply saying the name would cause him to go into a panic attack. That is one of the main reasons why people laugh at this scene. It was an over-reaction. If their mothers were both named Zerbophobiallna or something unique, then it might be more of a believable surprise. Ultimately, the coincidence of their mothers having the same name is meaningless, yet they make a point of it as if it does have meaning. That is just bad storytelling. Of course he would have a human mother. Again, Batman should have expected this. Superman looks perfectly human, speaks fluent English, has an understanding of human culture, holds human morals (he tells Batman not to kill criminals and is obviously going after villains), and somehow managed to stay hidden until he was in his 30's. Even Lois Lane rightly assumed he would have has an Earthly upbringing. The world's greatest detective should have considered the fact that he was probably raised by someone on Earth. And again, if Batman thinks he is a "dangerous alien monster that would wipe out humans on earth", then him having an adopted human mother would hold as much weight as learning the Joker has a human mother. Batman should not care, going by everything we see from him. |
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Post by SuperDevilDoctor on Feb 27, 2017 9:12:46 GMT
I agree. The extremity of the backlash against the film, and especially that moment, is, I feel, unwarranted. I agree as well. Ridiculously over-the-top bashing of MOS and BVS -- not to mention the DCEU in general -- has devolved into a form of "political correctness" by MCU Uber-fans. |
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Post by Jedan Archer on Feb 27, 2017 11:34:36 GMT
Why bring Marvel into the discussion? Their movies have plenty of dumb moments too.
Indeed. Let's not forget Cappy and Iron boy slugging it out and punching their faces violently was because of a similar writing idiocy: " I don't care, he killed my MOM", which was as cringe worthy as momy resolving Supes and Bats conflict. I know these films are written for children and emotional halfwits, but still, must the motivation be that lame, uninspired and cliche...? 
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Post by bb15 on Feb 28, 2017 2:16:44 GMT
That makes Bruce out to be xenophobic just for the sake of being xenophobic. I am really just the messenger here trying to explain what common interpretations of the film can be about. * Take the idea that the Krypton space aliens are an extreme danger for earth in the Snyder DC Superman movies; - This first came up with several professional critics reacting to "Man of Steel". For instance Red Letter Media, in their review of MOS, made the point that the Kryptonians were a disaster for earth and could lead to the doom of humanity. Red Letter Media said that Superman's father's plan to send his son to earth was a terrible idea. BVS puts the words of these professional critics into the dialogue for Bruce Wayne and other characters in the film. The opening scene of BVS where Bruce is horrified by the destruction of the Superman/Zod fight comes straight from some professional reviews of MOS. This sounds like it comes from the Nolan school of the way Batman must be. The Saint Batman who never kills. Of course Nolan's Saint Batman would never try to kill Superman. * But there is a lot more to Batman, including in films and comics, than what Nolan did. - Burton's Batman is a disturbed vigilante and when he's pissed off, he will kill people. - The counter argument to this is that the comic book Batman would never do that. That is wrong. For instance from All-Star Batman and Robin No. 7, 2007; www.cracked.com/article_20111_the-6-most-brutal-murders-committed-by-batman.html* i'm not asking you to like this kind of Batman. You can argue for the Nolan Saint Batman. But that would not be my point. - The emotionally disturbed / potential killer Batman exists in canon. - And that kind of twisted Batman (reacting to the events in Man of Steel) could decide to kill Superman as shown in BVS. * i'm not trying to change your mind. Of course you have the privilege to greatly dislike the Martha scene. But to me, with my understanding of what Batman can be, and how real people might act, it made sense. Imo at least, BB ;-) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 2:28:57 GMT
I love that moment. Im here to defend it. Bruce doesn't hesitate to kill Superman because he says "Martha" and their parents share the same name. People have misinterpreted that scene almost embarrassingly misinterpreting that scene. Batmab hesitates because for the last few hours in this film he has said OVER and OVER Superman will kill everyone, he's a threat, he's not human, etc... It's in that moment he is realizing Superman has a mom just like he did, a woman who raised him. He isn't here to destroy humanity. He's making a connection, he's putting all the puzzle pieces together at that moment. Means if he was wrong about Superman this whole time, he's guilty. Everything Alfred has been telling him was right. Also, he's realizing Lex set all of this up, it's a flood of things going through his mind all at once, including his own mom. Couldn't agree more. All the way through the movie, Bruce only ever thinks of Superman in terms of danger and threat. What the "Martha moment" does is Humanise Superman in Bruce's eyes. Suddenly Bruce is forced to think of him as a person - and more than that, as a guy who is vulnerable because of the danger to his mother. And seriously folks, is there anything Bruce Wayne can empathise with more than a guy whose parent is in danger of being killed by criminals? It happened to him, and it was the single most devastating event of his life. He knows exactly how it feels to be in that place, and here he's confronted with a guy who is facing exactly that danger. How do you look at him and see nothing but threat after that? It's impossible. I really don't get the attacks on it. I thought it was the best moment of the film. |
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Post by ap on Feb 28, 2017 7:47:16 GMT
That makes Bruce out to be xenophobic just for the sake of being xenophobic. I am really just the messenger here trying to explain what common interpretations of the film can be about. * Take the idea that the Krypton space aliens are an extreme danger for earth in the Snyder DC Superman movies; - This first came up with several professional critics reacting to "Man of Steel". For instance Red Letter Media, in their review of MOS, made the point that the Kryptonians were a disaster for earth and could lead to the doom of humanity. Red Letter Media said that Superman's father's plan to send his son to earth was a terrible idea. BVS puts the words of these professional critics into the dialogue for Bruce Wayne and other characters in the film. The opening scene of BVS where Bruce is horrified by the destruction of the Superman/Zod fight comes straight from some professional reviews of MOS. This sounds like it comes from the Nolan school of the way Batman must be. The Saint Batman who never kills. Of course Nolan's Saint Batman would never try to kill Superman. * But there is a lot more to Batman, including in films and comics, than what Nolan did. - Burton's Batman is a disturbed vigilante and when he's pissed off, he will kill people. - The counter argument to this is that the comic book Batman would never do that. That is wrong. For instance from All-Star Batman and Robin No. 7, 2007; www.cracked.com/article_20111_the-6-most-brutal-murders-committed-by-batman.html* i'm not asking you to like this kind of Batman. You can argue for the Nolan Saint Batman. But that would not be my point. - The emotionally disturbed / potential killer Batman exists in canon. - And that kind of twisted Batman (reacting to the events in Man of Steel) could decide to kill Superman as shown in BVS. * i'm not trying to change your mind. Of course you have the privilege to greatly dislike the Martha scene. But to me, with my understanding of what Batman can be, and how real people might act, it made sense. Imo at least, BB ;-) My argument is that Batman SHOULD have killed Superman based on everything we saw, so I'm not sure where you got all that from. |
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Post by bb15 on Mar 1, 2017 2:20:42 GMT
My argument is that Batman SHOULD have killed Superman based on everything we saw, so I'm not sure where you got all that from. OK. Fair enough. My view is that part of Batman's motivation to kill Superman was that Bruce believed that Superman was much too alien to be able to understand humanity and the need to follow the laws of earth nations (which Superman sometimes did not do in MOS). That led to the fears that Superman was a potential tyrant (supported by the Flash in the time travel vortex). To me that was a mistake on Batman's part. Bruce did not know about the influence of humanity that Superman received by his foster mother, Martha. And that Lois knew that Superman was not the monster which Bruce thought Superman could be.  Imo at least, BB ;-) |
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